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Why does the U.S. keep stepping in it?

bradly1101

bradly1101

Diamond Member
In school I was taught that the reason we learned history was so that we'd remember the lessons of the past.

In 1953 we engineered a coup that brought down the elected leader of Iran. This led to the Shah who was by all accounts brutal in his punishments. That led to the revolution, hostages and nuclear fears. Does anybody wonder if we would be in the same place with Iran today had we just left them alone in the first place?

In the '80's we supported strong men and despots in Central America, which brought about political changes (less business-friendly and more populist - the horror!) that we did not want.

Lost in all the details and heroism of 9/11 was the hijackers' motivation. Bloomberg simplistically states that "they hated us for our freedoms." That is so disingenuous. They were violently protesting our support for their authoritarian, freedom-sapping, brutal leaders (The House of Saud for the most part - good thing we responded by attacking Afghanistan, and didn't that work?). They saw us as preventing their freedom, just like in Iran when we supported the Shah. They didn't hit us because of Rock & Roll, miniskirts or alcohol Mr. Bloomberg.

Recently we meddled in near-Russia politics during and after the fall of Yanukovych in Ukraine. Victoria Newland's tapped, "f___ the EU" phone call hinted at our involvement. And look what happened, when Russia lost their guy they went nuts out east.

American interventionism can be discussed to death, but don't you guys see an obvious, unlearned pattern here? I believe our interference has made this a much worse world (and is really expensive in so many ways). And I have a feeling that we still haven't learned anything.

The more we try to shape the world, the more it seems to fall apart.
 
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Oh good, another painfully naive bradly post.

I was wondering when the stupid would ratchet back up.
 
IGBT said:
so now we have radical islam. and they want to set the world on fire. Are you happy now??
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We attempt to change countries and governments, but we end up changing whole societies. Shia and Sunni were at relative peace in many countries (and often intermarried with no repercussions) until we lit a fire under militant, well armed Sunnis when (as they see it) we helped Shia come to power in Iraq, which of course metastasized to the whole region and brought reactions by Iran and Russia. What a tangled web we weave...

It just feels like the guy who's at the top advising the power brokers to think about "What's the worst-case scenario?" is not being listened to because that seems to be what keeps happening.
 
bradly1101 said:
We attempt to change countries and governments, but we end up changing whole societies. Shia and Sunni were at relative peace in many countries (and often intermarried with no repercussions) until we lit a fire under militant, well armed Sunnis when (as they see it) we helped Shia come to power in Iraq, which of course metastasized to the whole region and brought reactions by Iran and Russia. What a tangled web we weave...

It just feels like the guy who's at the top advising the power brokers to think about "What's the worst-case scenario?" is not being listened to because that seems to be what keeps happening.
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You need to bitch-slap your history teacher and then learn something about the "elected" leader of Iran we helped depose. After that, decide if self-determination and freedom are in and of themselves good, or only when limited to the white Christian.
 
werepossum said:
You need to bitch-slap your history teacher and then learn something about the "elected" leader of Iran we helped depose. After that, decide if self-determination and freedom are in and of themselves good, or only when limited to the white Christian.
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I'm guessing that you are referring to Mosaddegh so I have to ask, why the scary quotes around the word elected?
 
Victorian Gray said:
I'm guessing that you are referring to Mosaddegh so I have to ask, why the scary quotes around the word elected?
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When your opponents are all assassinated or forced to flee the country, scary quotes around the word elected are warranted.

By '52 Mosaddegh was openly ruling as a dictator, hardly the scion of democracy he is now held up to be. His ascension to power was less legitimate than was Hitler's, his brief rule arguably a tiny bit more so. Mosaddegh was neither better nor worse than the other Iranian players of the day; it's only become fashionable to raise him to a pedestal because he was overthrown with the aid of America and Great Britain.
 
werepossum said:
When your opponents are all assassinated or forced to flee the country, scary quotes around the word elected are warranted.

By '52 Mosaddegh was openly ruling as a dictator, hardly the scion of democracy he is now held up to be. His ascension to power was less legitimate than was Hitler's, his brief rule arguably a tiny bit more so. Mosaddegh was neither better nor worse than the other Iranian players of the day; it's only become fashionable to raise him to a pedestal because he was overthrown with the aid of America and Great Britain.
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That's where I was afraid you were going so I'll simply bow out now.
 
Because we want to feign democratic and freedom interests, for the purposes of drawing in beaucoup d'argent.

Maybe back before the 40s, we really cared about people, freedom, liberty, etc. But, once communism rolled around, things turned into; "Communism?! How do I ensure my millions stay as is and possibly make even more!?.
 
werepossum said:
You need to bitch-slap your history teacher and then learn something about the "elected" leader of Iran we helped depose. After that, decide if self-determination and freedom are in and of themselves good, or only when limited to the white Christian.
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I know he was well liked and implemented many social reforms.

I'm sure you are parroting the U.S.'s propaganda about him when the only thing we really cared about was the fact that he nationalized their oil industry, and by golly, we 'white Christians' need to drive our big cars cheaply!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh
 
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bradly1101 said:
I know he was well liked and implemented many social reforms.

I'm sure you are parroting the U.S.'s propaganda about him when the only thing we really cared about was the fact that he nationalized their oil industry, and by golly, we 'white Christians' need to drive our big cars cheaply!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh
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He was well-liked for the first year or so. After that, increasingly less so, to the point that allies deserted him and he was reduced to attempting to rule as a dictator.
 
bradley, you have made very insightful comments. Unfortunately, the majority will not see it that way. Their narrow ideologies will not let them see things in any other way. They will see what they want to see.

If man learned from history, I doubt the world would be what it is. So yes, the more man tries to solve problems, the more he creates.
 
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