Why does Gigabyte cripple their high-end mobos?

[VirtualLarry]

Looking at the EX38-DS4, and now the EX48-DS4 - they are crippled, in terms of the number of SATA ports. The cheap $120 P35-DS3R (lower than a DS4), sports 8 SATA ports - 6 ICH9R, and 2 on the Gigabyte SATA2 chip. The EX38-DS4, which is supposed to be a higher-end mobo, has the Gigabyte SATA2 chip onboard, but the space on the PCB that could be occupied by those two SATA ports is EMPTY! For $199, and $249, respectively, shouldn't I as a consumer get the full complement of SATA ports that is possible with these chipsets?

I greatly value the flexibility of having two different SATA controller chipsets onboard, because I can set the Intel ports to AHCI/RAID, and then still set the Jmicron ports to IDE compatibility mode, to put the XP boot HD on, and a SATA burner if I wanted to.


Who's with me to put in a complaint to Gigabyte, to come out with a new hardware revision of these boards that has the full set of SATA ports implemented??? (And perhaps a boycott of their boards, until they do so!)

 

[Mr Fox]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
Looking at the EX38-DS4, and now the EX48-DS4 - they are crippled, in terms of the number of SATA ports. The cheap $120 P35-DS3R (lower than a DS4), sports 8 SATA ports - 6 ICH9R, and 2 on the Gigabyte SATA2 chip. The EX38-DS4, which is supposed to be a higher-end mobo, has the Gigabyte SATA2 chip onboard, but the space on the PCB that could be occupied by those two SATA ports is EMPTY! For $199, and $249, respectively, shouldn't I as a consumer get the full complement of SATA ports that is possible with these chipsets?

I greatly value the flexibility of having two different SATA controller chipsets onboard, because I can set the Intel ports to AHCI/RAID, and then still set the Jmicron ports to IDE compatibility mode, to put the XP boot HD on, and a SATA burner if I wanted to.


Who's with me to put in a complaint to Gigabyte, to come out with a new hardware revision of these boards that has the full set of SATA ports implemented??? (And perhaps a boycott of their boards, until they do so!)

All the makers do this kind of thing, Gigabyte in the latest builds was the only MOBO makers that fully implemented the features of the ICH-9R in the latest P35 Chipsets.

I typically will use all of my SATA ports. I have tons of drives, and my main workstation does all kinds of work, and so it needs the ability to handle that.

Because of the issues with Customer Service Gigabyte never gets my business ASUS, and MSI seem to be the best in this area they listen to their customers, and implement revisions.

One real good example of Product Development is ASUS P5K-Pro the P5K series was poorly laid out with the SATA Ports in Conflict with the Primary PEG Slot.

Along comes P5K-Pro 135.00 Replacing the P5K-E

MSI was the first to implement the BIOS Reset Switch replacing the old fashioned Jumper.
That came from a suggestion of a friend of mine that was sick out digging out the needle nose pliers every time he needed to reset. He wrote a letter to Alex, and Alex sent to Taiwan. MSI Implemented about a year later with the NF4 MOBO's

I think you will get the most Mileage Writing a Letter, or finding out who is the proper contact here in the USA....

Unfortunately I have had a love/hate relationship with Gigabyte it has only been in the last year that they have really made Major Improvements in their Build Quality.... Unfortunately they have been very poor in the area of Customer Service.....

With that being said, it will be interesting to see how Gigabyte reacts, and takes feedback, I know that I felt sorry for the Poor Bastards that Bought the High End 680i ....Gary and Lopri really saved the day there, and established a Dialog with Gigabyte, and the Affected people.

 

[dr150]

Yup it irks me when mobo mfgrs skimp on common sense additions.

Gigabyte leaving out firewire entirely (board or add-on) on their poplar model and Asus's layout where SATA ports are blocked by video card and blocking a PCI slot.

 

[Heidfirst]

Originally posted by: Mr Fox

All the makers do this kind of thing, Gigabyte in the latest builds was the only MOBO makers that fully implemented the features of the ICH-9R in the latest P35 Chipsets.

what did Gigabyte implement that abit, Asus, DFI, MSI etc. didn't?

 

[Mr Fox]

Originally posted by: Heidfirst

Originally posted by: Mr Fox

All the makers do this kind of thing, Gigabyte in the latest builds was the only MOBO makers that fully implemented the features of the ICH-9R in the latest P35 Chipsets.

what did Gigabyte implement that abit, Asus, DFI, MSI etc. didn't?

In the P-35 MOBO's Gigabyte implements 6 - SATA slots and 2 - JMicron

GIGABYTE GA-EP35-DS4


Most Other Manufacturers Only Implement 4 Slots off the ICH9R and 2 - JMicron


ASUS P5K PRO


Only DFI and the ABIT P-35 implement the ICH9R fully other than Gigabyte.

 

[Heidfirst]

Asus & MSI both have P35 mobos with 6 SATAs off of the ICH9R (although in MSI's case they may have 2 configured as 2 eSATA on the rear IO plane).
P5K Pro has 6 SATA off of the ICH9R but uses a Marvell adapter for PATA support, no JMicron.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Mr Fox

In the P-35 MOBO's Gigabyte implements 6 - SATA slots and 2 - JMicron

GIGABYTE GA-EP35-DS4


Most Other Manufacturers Only Implement 4 Slots off the ICH9R and 2 - JMicron

Again, why does Gigabyte implement all 6 + 2, on their P35-DS4 board, and NOT implement them on their EX38-DS4 and EX48-DS4. It boggles the mind.

Also, I'm not aware of any boards using the ICH9R that don't implement six SATA ports. I think that you are thinking of boards that use the ICH9, not the -R variant.

 

[GigabyteColin]

Hi Mr. Virtual Larry,

The reason for not including the additional SATA controller on our X48-DS4 and X38-DS4 is to allow for product segmentation between the DS4 and DS5 (For the P35 motherboards, we didn't have a DS5 model). If you are really interested in the additional 2 SATA support, I suggest you look at the DS5 models. For the X48, a quick search on zipzoomfly currently lists both the DS4 and DS5 as the same price of $229.99.

However, I do admit that sometimes, depending on which region you are in, some models aren't available. This is usually determined by sales demand.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: GigabyteColin
Hi Mr. Virtual Larry,

The reason for not including the additional SATA controller on our X48-DS4 and X38-DS4 is to allow for product segmentation between the DS4 and DS5 (For the P35 motherboards, we didn't have a DS5 model). If you are really interested in the additional 2 SATA support, I suggest you look at the DS5 models. For the X48, a quick search on zipzoomfly currently lists both the DS4 and DS5 as the same price of $229.99.

However, I do admit that sometimes, depending on which region you are in, some models aren't available. This is usually determined by sales demand.

Thanks for the response. I can't help but feel that this is an incredibly poor attitude to have towards customers. It used to be that mobo makers tried to provide as many features as possible for customers on their boards. In this case, it clearly is a case of "screw the customer, unless they pay us extra $$$", because it's not a cost-cutting measure. The "Gigabyte SATA2" chip is already onboard, and the two SATA ports are silk-screened onto the board. The only difference is that the BIOS is (likely) crippled to disable those ports, and the plastic SATA connectors are not soldered into place.

It's incredibly lame to attempt to force customers to pay for the highest-end board in order to obtain those simple features. That wasn't the case with P35 boards. BOTH the P35-DS3R as well as the P35-DS4 have the extra 2 SATA ports. It wasn't confined to the highest model in the series.

What's next for Gigabyte's agenda? Will they start including 7.1 audio chips on the motherboard, but then only provide 2-channel output ports on the rear panel, unless the user pays extra for their "deluxe sound" model?

Until Gigabyte drops this attitude, and adopts a more reasonable customer-centric attitude, I will be HEREBY BOYCOTTING GIGABYTE.

I was considering purchasing a 780G board, both one for myself and one for someone else's build in the near future, but now I will be looking elsewhere. MSI likes to provide a large set of features for price, I'll probably check them out instead.
I was also considering a set of EX38-DS4 boards for a pair of Q6600 builds, but because of the missing SATA ports which I require, I will also not be considering.

The bottom line here is that Gigabyte is being penny-wise, pound-foolish, and they are going to be losing sales of motherboards because they decided to cripple the features of their board. I would say "low-end", but that's not true, these are $180 and $225 boards we are talking about. Hardly low-end, and very stupid indeed to cripple them.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I also can't find any -DS5 mobos, at either ZipZoomFly or NewEgg. And if the -DS5 costs the same as the -DS4, then what on earth was the point of crippling the -DS4 models?

I searched Google for "EX38-DS5", and found zero US retailers within ten pages of search results. This board is simply unavailable here in the US.

 

[GigabyteColin]

Hi VirtualLarry,

Sorry you feel that way, but you need to understand that not every user has the same computing needs that you do. Some people do not want to pay extra money for some features they do not need. Do we ignore these customers by only making motherboards with every available feature at a high pricepoint? Another issue is those SATA controllers from our vendors are not cheap. They cost quite a lot, so it forces us to include the feature as a premium. Every manufacturer is forced to do the same. Some manufacturers go the other direction and use a cheaper lower quality part and then try to pass that off to the consumer instead. We prefer to not go this route.

But these issues aside, we do have the EX48-DS5 that does offer the additional SATA support. The reason why you might not be able to find X38 version because we may have discontinued it in the US. As you may know, the X48 is the same exact chip as X38. X48 are only higher binned versions of the same chip. While Intel does charge us a premium for X48, for the versions that we discontinued for X38, we offer versions of the same for X48, and also usually at the same price that we were selling the X38 for.

Not sure why you need to boycott. For whatever sales reason, right now, I just checked, you can still get an X48 DS4 and DS5 for the same price on zipzoomfly. If there is a product that we produce, that isn't sold in your region, you can always contact your disti or even your local GIGABYTE office and request. Maybe they can help you out.

Best Regards,
Colin

 

[vailr]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry

I greatly value the flexibility of having two different SATA controller chipsets onboard, because I can set the Intel ports to AHCI/RAID, and then still set the Jmicron ports to IDE compatibility mode, to put the XP boot HD on, and a SATA burner if I wanted to.

You can set the ICH9R in bios for either: AHCI or RAID, but not both.
Also, you can leave the bios set for Raid mode, and yet still install XP onto a single hard drive. Use the F6 floppy Intel Matrix driver install method, or else slipstream using the "Mass Storage" Driver Pack:
http://www.driverpacks.net/Dri...index.php/DriverPacks/

Have you considered the Abit IP35-Pro board?:
ABIT IP35 Pro LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - ($129.99 after $50.00 Mail-In Rebate)
2x Winner of Customer Choice Award - Intel Motherboards
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813127030

I have a dual boot XP system using that board, with a bootable Raid 0 array, and also a bootable single HD. Boot selection made in bios.
Note: the bootable SATA optical drive must be placed on SATA ports 5 or 6, if Raid mode is selected.
The only JMicron SATA ports are for the 2 eSATA ports. [JMicron internal IDE connector is left unused.]
The Gigabyte boards have no eSATA ports.

 

[vailr]

Originally posted by: GigabyteColin
For whatever sales reason, right now, I just checked, you can still get an X48 DS4 and DS5 for the same price on zipzoomfly.

The only Gigabyte "X48-DS4" board [currently listed at ZZF]:
GIGABYTE GA-X48-DS4 Intel Core 2 Quad Socket 775 - $233.99
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/...p?ProductCode=10007742

I'm not seeing any Gigabyte "DS5" Intel socket 775 listed at either: ZZF or Newegg.
The only Gigabyte "DS5" board of any socket type [currently listed at ZZF] is only for AMD:
GIGABYTE GA-MA790FX-DS5 AMD 790FX Phenom Socket AM2 - $179.99
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/...p?ProductCode=10007283

One Gigabyte board that has never appeared in N. America:

GA-8I865PE775-G-RH (rev. 4.9)
http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Pro...ame=GA-8I865PE775-G-RH

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: GigabyteColin
Hi VirtualLarry,

Sorry you feel that way, but you need to understand that not every user has the same computing needs that you do. Some people do not want to pay extra money for some features they do not need. Do we ignore these customers by only making motherboards with every available feature at a high pricepoint?

First, the Gigabyte SATA2 chip is already on the board - the user is already paying for the functionality (that they are not recieving).

Second - these motherboards (EX38/EX48-DS4) already come at a high pricepoint. They are not inexpensive motherboards. Yet they lack the features of lower-end, cheaper, P35 Gigabyte mobos. (Specifically the 8 SATAs of the P35-DS3R.)

Third, why should I be forced to pay for the DS5 boards, when I don't need the extra (dual) gigabit LAN feature? (Like you say, customers don't want to pay extra for features they don't want.)

Originally posted by: GigabyteColin
Another issue is those SATA controllers from our vendors are not cheap. They cost quite a lot, so it forces us to include the feature as a premium. Every manufacturer is forced to do the same. Some manufacturers go the other direction and use a cheaper lower quality part and then try to pass that off to the consumer instead. We prefer to not go this route.

BUT! The Gigabyte SATA2 chip is already on the board! The user is already paying this premium for the extra chip, and not getting the benefits of the two extra SATA ports that this chip can provide. The space for the extra SATA ports is already silkscreened onto the board too. All that is needed is to solder in the two ports (and that connector is cheap), and uncripple the BIOS.

Originally posted by: GigabyteColin
But these issues aside, we do have the EX48-DS5 that does offer the additional SATA support. The reason why you might not be able to find X38 version because we may have discontinued it in the US. As you may know, the X48 is the same exact chip as X38. X48 are only higher binned versions of the same chip. While Intel does charge us a premium for X48, for the versions that we discontinued for X38, we offer versions of the same for X48, and also usually at the same price that we were selling the X38 for.

I'm glad that the "premium" DS5 boards are either discontinued or unavailable in the US. That's smart marketing. Only ship the crippled boards to us here in the US of A. What, do we not deserve 8 SATA ports or something?

Not to mention, the price premium going from an X38 to an X48 motherboard is huge. Especially since they are the identical chip, just binned higher. I don't need the insane FSB overclocks from an X48, I just wanted a decent high-end board with 6 VR phases for a quad-core, some VR heatsinks, and 8 SATA ports.

Originally posted by: GigabyteColin
Not sure why you need to boycott. For whatever sales reason, right now, I just checked, you can still get an X48 DS4 and DS5 for the same price on zipzoomfly. If there is a product that we produce, that isn't sold in your region, you can always contact your disti or even your local GIGABYTE office and request. Maybe they can help you out.

Best Regards,
Colin

It's because of the non-customer-centric attitude that Gigabyte is displaying here.
Making the customer pay for the chip on board, but not allowing the customer to fully utilize that chip, because the mobo was intentionally crippled, precisely in order to sell the next higher model up.

Whatever happened to giving the customer as much as possible, within a price point? The key here is that I'm not talking about a missing feature, I'm talking about an intentionally crippled feature. The two are quite different. I hope that you will be able to see that.

All I ask for is a hardware rev of the EX38-DS4 mobo, which implements the two Jmicron SATA ports that weren't present on the current board, and an uncripppled BIOS that allows one to use those ports. Thus restoring full functionality to the board.

 

[Baroo]

i thought this was the the gigabyte high end board: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813128331

ddr3 version: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813128330

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Baroo
i thought this was the the gigabyte high end board: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813128331

ddr3 version: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813128330

The -DQ6 is the highest-end board in the series, but the -DS4 is also a high-end board. For the P35 chipset, there is a DS3, DS3L, DS3R, DS3P, and then the DS4, which sports heatpipe cooling for the chipset, and then the DQ6, which is like the DS4 but higher even.

The DS4 therefore is the highest-end board before the overboard DQ6 version. For the X38/X48 chipsets, apparently there is also a DS5 model, which has the heatpipe cooling of the DS4, but also sports dual gigabit LAN.

My complain is that the X38/X48 DS4 boards are crippled compared to their P35 counterparts. Gigabyte already created an expectation of features (for the DS4 model) from their P35 board series, and then they broke those expectations when they crippled their high-end X38/X48 DS4 boards.

There's no reason that Gigabyte couldn't have provided GOOD VALUE for BOTH DS4 and DS5 purchasers, but they got greedy and decided to cripple one board, so that the user would purchase the next higher board. (Which, according to gigabytecolin, is the same price as the DS4 board. Which makes even less sense. To top it off, the DS5 isn't even available like the DS4 board is.)

If someone can point me out to where I can obtain an EX38-DS5 or EX48-DS5 board for the same price as the EX38-DS4 board that I was looking at originally (priced at $175), then I will withdraw my boycott and purchase that board.

 

[taltamir]

check to see if the implemented them as eSATA ports...

 

[VirtualLarry]

Nope, no esata ports. Gigabyte actually has the superior solution for the esata ports. They include a dual-esata bracket with the board that you can plug into either the jmicron OR the ICH9R ports, at least for the DS3R. This is much more flexible a solution than say, the ASUS P5K Premium/wifi, which has the jmicron ports permanently wired up to the esata, with the ICH9R ports being onboard.

I prefer the gigabyte solution, but because they have crippled their mobos, I am going to be forced to go with an ASUS solution. 8-phase power (on the ASUS) is also better than the 6-phase power of the gigabyte, as far as I can tell.

Does anyone know if Gigabyte has committed the same sins, and has crippled their P45-chipset boards too?

 

[VirtualLarry]

It appears that Gigabyte's P45-DS3R and P45-DS4 both lack the Jmicron SATA ports, even though they sport the Jmicron ("Gigabyte SATA2") chip onboard. But they lack the silkscreened areas for the connectors too, which means that this time around, Gigabyte's marketing has strong-armed Gigabyte's engineering department, and forced them to remove this feature from the get-go, as opposed to a late mfg change in the case of the X38-DS4/X48-DS4.

 

[Mr Fox]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry

Originally posted by: Baroo
i thought this was the the gigabyte high end board: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813128331

ddr3 version: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813128330

The -DQ6 is the highest-end board in the series, but the -DS4 is also a high-end board. For the P35 chipset, there is a DS3, DS3L, DS3R, DS3P, and then the DS4, which sports heatpipe cooling for the chipset, and then the DQ6, which is like the DS4 but higher even.

The DS4 therefore is the highest-end board before the overboard DQ6 version. For the X38/X48 chipsets, apparently there is also a DS5 model, which has the heatpipe cooling of the DS4, but also sports dual gigabit LAN.

My complain is that the X38/X48 DS4 boards are crippled compared to their P35 counterparts. Gigabyte already created an expectation of features (for the DS4 model) from their P35 board series, and then they broke those expectations when they crippled their high-end X38/X48 DS4 boards.

There's no reason that Gigabyte couldn't have provided GOOD VALUE for BOTH DS4 and DS5 purchasers, but they got greedy and decided to cripple one board, so that the user would purchase the next higher board. (Which, according to gigabytecolin, is the same price as the DS4 board. Which makes even less sense. To top it off, the DS5 isn't even available like the DS4 board is.)

If someone can point me out to where I can obtain an EX38-DS5 or EX48-DS5 board for the same price as the EX38-DS4 board that I was looking at originally (priced at $175), then I will withdraw my boycott and purchase that board.

They are simply not available in this Market....

So the Comments Of The Gigabyte Rep. Were a Rectal Extraction.... to attempt to Appease you, and appear to know his product.


I agree that GIGABYTE is coming out with some Very Lame High End MOBO's in this Market.

GIGABYTE was making very Large steps in Build Quality, and Reliability.

Now they really have made moves, that make me have reservations about recommending, or specifying their products !

 

[BassBomb]

Why boycott ? Just buy a product from a different vendor with the features you like.

 

[Mr Fox]

Originally posted by: BassBomb
Why boycott ? Just buy a product from a different vendor with the features you like.

It is how Change is Effected in a mass market society.

The power of the Word, and Forums, and Blogs is amazing.


When Large Multi National Corporations use these means to Viral (Stealth) Market their products the medium is Powerful indeed.

Corporate Arrogance is way out there right now, and it is this Medium that you can Confront , and drive home changes.

Gary Key helped those poor bastards with the Gigabyte 680i Issue... That is the only reason "Gigabyte Colin" is here now.



I have "Worn the Tin Foil Hat" a few times in the last few years, but I also have gotten results, and seen change in the Market.

When Monarch Computer was "Playing the Float with Other Peoples Money" I posted across this and many other Forums, and was successful in Cluing people in, and Driving Monarch out of Business after 3-4 Months.

I have taken on OCZ at Least 4 times, and forced change with their Deceptive Marketing Crapola.

The FTC Price Fixing investigation of ATI, and NVIDIA was driven by people from this Forum, and a few others.

The lower priced GPU's are a direct result of that investigation.

Believe me it takes guts to take on these Companies, because they have Shills everywhere.

Just Fuck with NVIDIA a few times, and you learn this quickly.. You have to pick your battles sometimes.



But Larry has an Excellent Point here, and has noticed something that requires people being aware of.

 

[VirtualLarry]

One more thing that I noticed that Gigabyte is crippling, is their onboard sound. Among boards that sport the same identical Realtek ALC889A chip, not all of them support "DTS Connect". It appears to be a purely software driver feature, that allows outputting more than stereo sound to the SPDIF (encoding, not simply AC3 passthrough). But according to things that I've read on the web, which mirror the supported features mentioned on Gigabyte's web site, the P35-DS3R does not support it, while the more expensive P35-DS4 does support it. Even though the sound hardware is the same.

Gigabyte could have given EVERY motherboard with 889A sound chips the ability to do DTS Connect. But they crippled the drivers, and limited support to their higher-end boards.

Again, the question is WHY is gigabyte so anti-customer?

 

[Blazer7]

If it's a driver issue just download the latest from Realtek. I've been doing so for quite sometime now and everytime the drivers would work fine. People with the X48-DQ6 which features the 889 have also done the same with success. I don't know if GB disabled anything in the audio drivers that come with their boards (or can be found in their site) but one can download the needed drivers directly from Realtek.

This doesn't seem quite right. Are you sure that there's an issue here?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Does anyone know where to find an EX48-DS5, at any price, in the US of A? I'm contemplating.