Why do you think the government is your hired thug?

[Nebor]

First of all, I'd like to preface this post by saying that it is in regards to America, and intended to be responded to by Americans. It has nothing to do with America forcing it's collective beliefs on other nations or peoples.

Let me give a few examples, and I'll start with one near and dear to my own heart: Gun control. As an avid gun collector and self-defense advocate, I have never, not once in my life, advocated that anyone be forced to own or carry a gun. I think that is entirely a personal choice. And yet, proponents of gun control would presume to tell me how to live my life, and what property I can own. Note that I have no interest in restricting their freedom, or choices, yet they seek to restrict mine.

Next up: Universal Health Care. I don't need it. I don't want it. At this point in time, I can choose whether or not I want to spend my money and purchase any grade of health care I want. And those who want cheap, low quality health care can, at this time, choose to band together and create a low cost option for the poor. But that's not what they want. They want to use the government as their thug to take money from me, someone who doesn't want universal health care, and won't benefit from it at all. And that is part of the plan, just like any other insurance company works: You need a large amount of "customers" who don't make claims or cost you money in order to support all those others. So really, what you want to do is take my money (by force and threat of prison) in order to pay for your health care.

Now obviously there is such a thing as the social contract, but the concept is EXTREMELY simple. We give up the right to kill, maim and steal from one another in exchange for living in a society of law and order. The very basic principal of the social contract, and America, has always been "Your rights end where another's begin." Meaning simply that you can do whatever you want, as long as you're not violating anyone elses rights in doing so.

Alright authoritarian types, you're probably foaming at the mouth by now, so flame on.

 

[Moonbeam]

The universal health care will come in handy when you shoot yourself with one of your self defense weapons defending yourself from phantoms.

 

[senseamp]

Get over yourself. You get a vote, not a veto on what the tax rates are and what those taxes are spent for, well indirectly at least. I don't want my money spent on Iraq war either, but if the country wanted to elect idiots who thought it was a good idea, that's what we got. Just like you may not want universal health care, but if the country votes for candidates who support it in the next election, those candidates will have a mandate from the people to implement it, whether you like it or not.

 

[umbrella39]

Flame on? One would have to care to flame you. After reading months of your posts, tbh, I don't. As long as you stay in the deep south, who cares?

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The universal health care will come in handy when you shoot yourself with one of your self defense weapons defending yourself from phantoms.

I've had a gun within a couple feet of me for nearly 30 years, and I've never shot myself, nor had an accidental discharge.

To those who think guns cause death and destruction, let me pose a question: Would you rather be locked, for one hour, in a room with 10 loaded, fully automatic AK47 assault rifles, or in a room with 10 convicted felons?

So are guns the problem, or is it really criminals?

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Get over yourself. You get a vote, not a veto on what the tax rates are and what those taxes are spent for, well indirectly at least. I don't want my money spent on Iraq war either, but if the country wanted to elect idiots who thought it was a good idea, that's what we got. Just like you may not want universal health care, but if the country votes for candidates who support it in the next election, those candidates will have a mandate from the people to implement it, whether you like it or not.

The majority does not have the right to impose on the minority. That's what the bill of rights is all about. It's why we're a constitutional republic and not a democracy.

 

[ayabe]

First off, no one is trying to take your gun away. So I don't even understand why this is a concern to you. This is a wedge issue where wingnut groups try to claim that candidate X wants to take your gun away, so vote for candidate Y. It's a fallacy and will never happen.

"Your rights end where another's begin." Meaning simply that you can do whatever you want, as long as you're not violating anyone elses rights in doing so.

I only wish this was still the case, it was up until the first part of the 20th century, the slide began with prohibition and has been ratcheted up ever since.

As far as healthcare goes, I believe everyone has the right to equal medical services regardless of their economic status, as long as they are a citizen of the US. There shouldn't be separate and unequal healthcare.

Now, I don't have a plan to make this feasible but fundamentally the cost of healthcare in general has to decline or at least stop increasing at such a prodigious pace. While we may not have a exactly the inequality I referenced above, we are increasingly headed in that direction.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: senseamp
Get over yourself. You get a vote, not a veto on what the tax rates are and what those taxes are spent for, well indirectly at least. I don't want my money spent on Iraq war either, but if the country wanted to elect idiots who thought it was a good idea, that's what we got. Just like you may not want universal health care, but if the country votes for candidates who support it in the next election, those candidates will have a mandate from the people to implement it, whether you like it or not.

The majority does not have the right to impose on the minority. That's what the bill of rights is all about. It's why we're a constitutional republic and not a democracy.

That's funny. I see the majority imposing on the minority all the time. Ah well, what can ya do?

 

[techs]

Why does government want to stop people from having abortions? Why does government want to stop people with killer infectious diseases from spreading them? Why does government want to tell me what I can and can't say on t.v.? Why does government want to make sure drivers have the ability to drive by giving them driving and vision tests?

It seems to me that government HAS the duty to regulate many aspects of life. What was needed in 1787 and what is needed in 2007 are very different.
There are just as many things that I object to as you object to.
One of the realities of our world and country in 2007 is that complete freedom to do whatever one wants has to be mitigated. In 1787 a single wacko could take out a dozen or so people. In 2007 a single wacko could kill millions.
No one will ever be completely happy with what and how government limits our freedoms.
The problem is that there is no longer any compromise and whichever side of an issue has a majority tends to impose their will to the largest extent possible.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The universal health care will come in handy when you shoot yourself with one of your self defense weapons defending yourself from phantoms.

I've had a gun within a couple feet of me for nearly 30 years, and I've never shot myself, nor had an accidental discharge.

To those who think guns cause death and destruction, let me pose a question: Would you rather be locked, for one hour, in a room with 10 loaded, fully automatic AK47 assault rifles, or in a room with 10 convicted felons?

So are guns the problem, or is it really criminals?

The felons, of course. What's to be learned from guns.

And anyway, you miss the point. You are a big fat egotist who has the opinion nothing will happen to you, but you could have a stroke tomorrow that leaves you paralyzed and even more of a vegetable than you already are and a tremendous financial liability to somebody else. For your sake, for there sake, and for my sake, I want you taken care of as best as can be done. I don't give a crap whether you want UHC or not, I want you to have it.

Not only do I have better sense than you do, I know I do, and I care about you more than you do too. You don't even know yet you hate yourself, for crap sake. But it shows, really clearly to me.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: ayabe
First off, no one is trying to take your gun away. So I don't even understand why this is a concern to you. This is a wedge issue where wingnut groups try to claim that candidate X wants to take your gun away, so vote for candidate Y. It's a fallacy and will never happen.

Principles that Obama supports on gun issues:
Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.
Increase state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms.
Source: 1998 IL State Legislative National Political Awareness Test Jul 2, 1998

"The vote reauthorizing the assault weapons ban is a vote in support of a public safety initiative that works. According to a report issued by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, the assault weapons ban passed ten years ago has resulted in a substantial decline in the use of those weapons in crimes. -Hillary Clinton

We will protect Americans' Second Amendment right to own firearms, and we will keep guns out of the hands of criminals and terrorists by fighting gun crime, reauthorizing the assault weapons ban, and closing the gun show loophole, as President Bush proposed and failed to do. -The Democratic Party's national platform

Make no mistake they want to take our guns away. They took away our "assault weapons" once. We haven't had free access to machine guns in 80 years.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The universal health care will come in handy when you shoot yourself with one of your self defense weapons defending yourself from phantoms.

I've had a gun within a couple feet of me for nearly 30 years, and I've never shot myself, nor had an accidental discharge.

To those who think guns cause death and destruction, let me pose a question: Would you rather be locked, for one hour, in a room with 10 loaded, fully automatic AK47 assault rifles, or in a room with 10 convicted felons?

So are guns the problem, or is it really criminals?

The felons, of course. What's to be learned from guns.

Guns don't talk to you?

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: techs
Why does government want to stop people from having abortions? Why does government want to stop people with killer infectious diseases from spreading them? Why does government want to tell me what I can and can't say on t.v.? Why does government want to make sure drivers have the ability to drive by giving them driving and vision tests?

It seems to me that government HAS the duty to regulate many aspects of life. What was needed in 1787 and what is needed in 2007 are very different.
There are just as many things that I object to as you object to.
One of the realities of our world and country in 2007 is that complete freedom to do whatever one wants has to be mitigated. In 1787 a single wacko could take out a dozen or so people. In 2007 a single wacko could kill millions.
No one will ever be completely happy with what and how government limits our freedoms.
The problem is that there is no longer any compromise and whichever side of an issue has a majority tends to impose their will to the largest extent possible.

All outside the scope of the government's power.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The universal health care will come in handy when you shoot yourself with one of your self defense weapons defending yourself from phantoms.

I've had a gun within a couple feet of me for nearly 30 years, and I've never shot myself, nor had an accidental discharge.

To those who think guns cause death and destruction, let me pose a question: Would you rather be locked, for one hour, in a room with 10 loaded, fully automatic AK47 assault rifles, or in a room with 10 convicted felons?

So are guns the problem, or is it really criminals?

The true nightmare scenario would be to be locked in a room with 10 convicted felons with 10 loaded AK47's, which is why you sleep with your gun.

If and when you find the courage and wisdom to look beyond your own heavily armed 24/7 nightmare, let us know, and we'll try to wean you from the insecurities of your deadly, dangerous addiction.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The universal health care will come in handy when you shoot yourself with one of your self defense weapons defending yourself from phantoms.

I've had a gun within a couple feet of me for nearly 30 years, and I've never shot myself, nor had an accidental discharge.

To those who think guns cause death and destruction, let me pose a question: Would you rather be locked, for one hour, in a room with 10 loaded, fully automatic AK47 assault rifles, or in a room with 10 convicted felons?

So are guns the problem, or is it really criminals?

The true nightmare scenario would be to be locked in a room with 10 convicted felons with 10 loaded AK47's, which is why you sleep with your gun.

If and when you find the courage and wisdom to look beyond your own heavily armed 24/7 nightmare, let us know, and we'll try to wean you from the insecurities of your deadly, dangerous addiction.

I lead a perfectly normal life. I go to trendy restaurants, go to the theater, hang out at the local wine bar, have a boyfriend and a girlfriend. It's a minor inconvenience to carry a firearm, one that has paid off tremendously several times in my life. Why would I NOT ensure the safety of myself and those around me?

And in your 10 armed felon scenario, I tend to think that MAD would prevail.

 

[Moonbeam]

I was sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooow on the edit so let me also put it here:

And anyway, you miss the point. You are a big fat egotist who has the opinion nothing will happen to you, but you could have a stroke tomorrow that leaves you paralyzed and even more of a vegetable than you already are and a tremendous financial liability to somebody else. For your sake, for there sake, and for my sake, I want you taken care of as best as can be done. I don't give a crap whether you want UHC or not, I want you to have it.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The universal health care will come in handy when you shoot yourself with one of your self defense weapons defending yourself from phantoms.

I've had a gun within a couple feet of me for nearly 30 years, and I've never shot myself, nor had an accidental discharge.

To those who think guns cause death and destruction, let me pose a question: Would you rather be locked, for one hour, in a room with 10 loaded, fully automatic AK47 assault rifles, or in a room with 10 convicted felons?

So are guns the problem, or is it really criminals?

The true nightmare scenario would be to be locked in a room with 10 convicted felons with 10 loaded AK47's, which is why you sleep with your gun.

If and when you find the courage and wisdom to look beyond your own heavily armed 24/7 nightmare, let us know, and we'll try to wean you from the insecurities of your deadly, dangerous addiction.

I lead a perfectly normal life. I go to trendy restaurants, go to the theater, hang out at the local wine bar, have a boyfriend and a girlfriend. It's a minor inconvenience to carry a firearm, one that has paid off tremendously several times in my life. Why would I NOT ensure the safety of myself and those around me?

And in your 10 armed felon scenario, I tend to think that MAD would prevail.

Exactly my thinking. Why would I not ensure the safety of myself and those around me with UHC.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I was sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooow on the edit so let me also put it here:

And anyway, you miss the point. You are a big fat egotist who has the opinion nothing will happen to you, but you could have a stroke tomorrow that leaves you paralyzed and even more of a vegetable than you already are and a tremendous financial liability to somebody else. For your sake, for there sake, and for my sake, I want you taken care of as best as can be done. I don't give a crap whether you want UHC or not, I want you to have it.

I have great health insurance (I pay $1100 a month for myself and my boyfriend.) And I have a living will. I won't be a vegetable, I won't live in a coma. I get 72-hours to come to, or I'm done.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The universal health care will come in handy when you shoot yourself with one of your self defense weapons defending yourself from phantoms.

I've had a gun within a couple feet of me for nearly 30 years, and I've never shot myself, nor had an accidental discharge.

To those who think guns cause death and destruction, let me pose a question: Would you rather be locked, for one hour, in a room with 10 loaded, fully automatic AK47 assault rifles, or in a room with 10 convicted felons?

So are guns the problem, or is it really criminals?

The true nightmare scenario would be to be locked in a room with 10 convicted felons with 10 loaded AK47's, which is why you sleep with your gun.

If and when you find the courage and wisdom to look beyond your own heavily armed 24/7 nightmare, let us know, and we'll try to wean you from the insecurities of your deadly, dangerous addiction.

I lead a perfectly normal life. I go to trendy restaurants, go to the theater, hang out at the local wine bar, have a boyfriend and a girlfriend. It's a minor inconvenience to carry a firearm, one that has paid off tremendously several times in my life. Why would I NOT ensure the safety of myself and those around me?

And in your 10 armed felon scenario, I tend to think that MAD would prevail.

Exactly my thinking. Why would I not ensure the safety of myself and those around me with UHC.

Because you're infringing on my right to spend my money as I see fit to choose the health insurance I want. You can certainly start a low-cost, low-grade health care commune, but don't force me to participate in a system that I simply won't use and don't want.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The universal health care will come in handy when you shoot yourself with one of your self defense weapons defending yourself from phantoms.

I've had a gun within a couple feet of me for nearly 30 years, and I've never shot myself, nor had an accidental discharge.

To those who think guns cause death and destruction, let me pose a question: Would you rather be locked, for one hour, in a room with 10 loaded, fully automatic AK47 assault rifles, or in a room with 10 convicted felons?

So are guns the problem, or is it really criminals?

The true nightmare scenario would be to be locked in a room with 10 convicted felons with 10 loaded AK47's, which is why you sleep with your gun.

If and when you find the courage and wisdom to look beyond your own heavily armed 24/7 nightmare, let us know, and we'll try to wean you from the insecurities of your deadly, dangerous addiction.

I lead a perfectly normal life. I go to trendy restaurants, go to the theater, hang out at the local wine bar, have a boyfriend and a girlfriend. It's a minor inconvenience to carry a firearm, one that has paid off tremendously several times in my life. Why would I NOT ensure the safety of myself and those around me?

And in your 10 armed felon scenario, I tend to think that MAD would prevail.

Not to derail, but you have a boyfriend and a girlfriend? :music:

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The universal health care will come in handy when you shoot yourself with one of your self defense weapons defending yourself from phantoms.

I've had a gun within a couple feet of me for nearly 30 years, and I've never shot myself, nor had an accidental discharge.

To those who think guns cause death and destruction, let me pose a question: Would you rather be locked, for one hour, in a room with 10 loaded, fully automatic AK47 assault rifles, or in a room with 10 convicted felons?

So are guns the problem, or is it really criminals?

The true nightmare scenario would be to be locked in a room with 10 convicted felons with 10 loaded AK47's, which is why you sleep with your gun.

If and when you find the courage and wisdom to look beyond your own heavily armed 24/7 nightmare, let us know, and we'll try to wean you from the insecurities of your deadly, dangerous addiction.

I lead a perfectly normal life. I go to trendy restaurants, go to the theater, hang out at the local wine bar, have a boyfriend and a girlfriend. It's a minor inconvenience to carry a firearm, one that has paid off tremendously several times in my life. Why would I NOT ensure the safety of myself and those around me?

And in your 10 armed felon scenario, I tend to think that MAD would prevail.

Not to derail, but you have a boyfriend and a girlfriend? :music:

Yeah, it's kind of complicated. I've been with him for about 4 years now, and her for almost 3. It started off that he and I were in love, and she was just kind of someone to play with, but we've come to love her to, and we all live together, and it works. I never would have thought that it would. *shrug*

 

[Bird222]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: techs
Why does government want to stop people from having abortions? Why does government want to stop people with killer infectious diseases from spreading them? Why does government want to tell me what I can and can't say on t.v.? Why does government want to make sure drivers have the ability to drive by giving them driving and vision tests?

It seems to me that government HAS the duty to regulate many aspects of life. What was needed in 1787 and what is needed in 2007 are very different.
There are just as many things that I object to as you object to.
One of the realities of our world and country in 2007 is that complete freedom to do whatever one wants has to be mitigated. In 1787 a single wacko could take out a dozen or so people. In 2007 a single wacko could kill millions.
No one will ever be completely happy with what and how government limits our freedoms.
The problem is that there is no longer any compromise and whichever side of an issue has a majority tends to impose their will to the largest extent possible.

All outside the scope of the government's power.

Well if this stuff is outside the government's power, it sure is trying to control it. I don't want preemptive wars either, but I can't control where my tax dollars are spent when the masses keep putting idiots in office.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The universal health care will come in handy when you shoot yourself with one of your self defense weapons defending yourself from phantoms.

I've had a gun within a couple feet of me for nearly 30 years, and I've never shot myself, nor had an accidental discharge.

To those who think guns cause death and destruction, let me pose a question: Would you rather be locked, for one hour, in a room with 10 loaded, fully automatic AK47 assault rifles, or in a room with 10 convicted felons?

So are guns the problem, or is it really criminals?

The true nightmare scenario would be to be locked in a room with 10 convicted felons with 10 loaded AK47's, which is why you sleep with your gun.

If and when you find the courage and wisdom to look beyond your own heavily armed 24/7 nightmare, let us know, and we'll try to wean you from the insecurities of your deadly, dangerous addiction.

I lead a perfectly normal life. I go to trendy restaurants, go to the theater, hang out at the local wine bar, have a boyfriend and a girlfriend. It's a minor inconvenience to carry a firearm, one that has paid off tremendously several times in my life. Why would I NOT ensure the safety of myself and those around me?

And in your 10 armed felon scenario, I tend to think that MAD would prevail.

Not to derail, but you have a boyfriend and a girlfriend? :music:

Yeah, it's kind of complicated. I've been with him for about 4 years now, and her for almost 3. It started off that he and I were in love, and she was just kind of someone to play with, but we've come to love her to, and we all live together, and it works. I never would have thought that it would. *shrug*

Well, at least I understand why you wouldn't like gun control.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The universal health care will come in handy when you shoot yourself with one of your self defense weapons defending yourself from phantoms.

I've had a gun within a couple feet of me for nearly 30 years, and I've never shot myself, nor had an accidental discharge.

To those who think guns cause death and destruction, let me pose a question: Would you rather be locked, for one hour, in a room with 10 loaded, fully automatic AK47 assault rifles, or in a room with 10 convicted felons?

So are guns the problem, or is it really criminals?

The true nightmare scenario would be to be locked in a room with 10 convicted felons with 10 loaded AK47's, which is why you sleep with your gun.

If and when you find the courage and wisdom to look beyond your own heavily armed 24/7 nightmare, let us know, and we'll try to wean you from the insecurities of your deadly, dangerous addiction.

I lead a perfectly normal life. I go to trendy restaurants, go to the theater, hang out at the local wine bar, have a boyfriend and a girlfriend. It's a minor inconvenience to carry a firearm, one that has paid off tremendously several times in my life. Why would I NOT ensure the safety of myself and those around me?

And in your 10 armed felon scenario, I tend to think that MAD would prevail.

Not to derail, but you have a boyfriend and a girlfriend? :music:

Yeah, it's kind of complicated. I've been with him for about 4 years now, and her for almost 3. It started off that he and I were in love, and she was just kind of someone to play with, but we've come to love her to, and we all live together, and it works. I never would have thought that it would. *shrug*

Well, at least I understand why you wouldn't like gun control.

Gun control serves to disarm the masses, but keep the elite and the government armed and in power. Every dictator or fascist in history has used gun control to disarm the people before he started oppressing them.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The universal health care will come in handy when you shoot yourself with one of your self defense weapons defending yourself from phantoms.

I've had a gun within a couple feet of me for nearly 30 years, and I've never shot myself, nor had an accidental discharge.

To those who think guns cause death and destruction, let me pose a question: Would you rather be locked, for one hour, in a room with 10 loaded, fully automatic AK47 assault rifles, or in a room with 10 convicted felons?

So are guns the problem, or is it really criminals?

The true nightmare scenario would be to be locked in a room with 10 convicted felons with 10 loaded AK47's, which is why you sleep with your gun.

If and when you find the courage and wisdom to look beyond your own heavily armed 24/7 nightmare, let us know, and we'll try to wean you from the insecurities of your deadly, dangerous addiction.

Addiction to government is far more deadly than addiction to guns. Guns harm a few. Government harms everyone. Just look to ours for evidence.