Why do we downplay historical facts?

[beyoku]

I have noticed may times, and as evident in the thread on "Filtering news in IRAN" that we have the practice of downplaying the historical facts of the US, and our allies. Why is it that everytime one person brings up what another country has done in the pas 40 or 50 years to sponsor terror that stigma of events.....not mater how long ago sticks with those countries? OTOH if anyone brings up events or acts commited by the US in the past 40 or 50 years it is as if we have a "Clean Slate" that is generated with each new president or our hands are no longer dirty? I am having trouble how a countries acts from 30 years ago can toss it into the "sopporter of terrorism" role when these same events we are excused from. Why do we downplay the history of the US? We act as if all the things that we have done in the Mideast, in South America, and etc etc etc just never happend? How can we overcome this phenomenon? I think it is a shame that our organizations such as the CIA have done so much dirty shyt and we act as if its never happned. Even in the US we downplay disinformation and assasinations of us citizens during the Civil Rights era. Many times when i talk to my non-native friends, they asks these questions, and they are amazed that Americans simply act like these things never happend or all international standards of justice and truth dont apply to us. I admit that i am ashamed at times. I guess this will be a statement, i cant expect you forum members to acknowledge what im talking about. 😕

 

[Skanderberg]

I think it is like this everywhere. People like to remember the good things and forget the bad things. Here in Japan they don't teach WWII history the same way that it is taught in the States. In Germany they don't mention Hitler or the Nazi party. In America we tend to gloss over Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Every nation wants to believe thier half truths about history to make themselves feel better about the country they were born into.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Well, since so many people in the U.S. feel that god always forgives them, they probably think that they can forgive and forget the sins of the country too. And, just as ikely, since those other countries talk to false gods, their past is baggage not forgiven.

 

[feralkid]

By remembering history, we'd be forced to learn from our mistakes, which seems anathema to our present leadership.

"History; it's just some goddamned pieces of paper."

 

[K1052]

Go to any bookstore in the US and wander over to the History section.

There you can find a vast array of books covering the good, bad, and indifferent things the US has done over since 1776. A lot of what happened in US foreign policy since 1945 was related to the containment of communism at any cost. We befriended a lot of horrible people and meddled around the world to get it done.

As far as our mistakes being covered in general history classes, some of them go quite in depth on a number of topics from my experience (Native Americans, Japanese internment, Panama, etc...).

 

[dullard]

History doesn't always repeat itself. And people/countries can change. Living solely in the past is far worse than ignoring the past. Assuming the past is a great predictor of the future is also worse than ignoring the past.

Historical facts are important (lessons can be learned from history), but don't overplay them.

 

[jrenz]

Originally posted by: Skanderberg
I think it is like this everywhere. People like to remember the good things and forget the bad things. Here in Japan they don't teach WWII history the same way that it is taught in the States. In Germany they don't mention Hitler or the Nazi party. In America we tend to gloss over Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Every nation wants to believe thier half truths about history to make themselves feel better about the country they were born into.

They gloss over Hiroshima and Nagasaki? I've learned about it in almost every history class I've ever taken. I don't see why we'd have to gloss over it. It ended a war that would have wound up taking many times more casualties had it continued. Problem?

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: dullard
History doesn't always repeat itself. And people/countries can change. Living solely in the past is far worse than ignoring the past. Assuming the past is a great predictor of the future is also worse than ignoring the past.

Historical facts are important (lessons can be learned from history), but don't overplay them.

For every person who overplays historical fact you can find hundreds who either ignore them or even deny them. I've heard so many of our government's recent abuses denied and attacks on civil liberties excused by people rationalizing that "our government would never do that," thus denying very real histroical examples of how our government has done it. The same applies for some of the stuff pulled by corporations.

It would be one thing if people acknowledged these historic examples but offered some well-reasoned thoughts on why it will be different this time. Flat-out denial, however, is dangerous. I see way more denial than I see well-reasoned thought.

 

[z3R0C00L]

Conservatives don't like to be reminded of historical facts.. or facts all together... they've VERY content on doing things by gut feeling.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: z3R0C00L
Conservatives don't like to be reminded of historical facts.. or facts all together... they've VERY content on doing things by gut feeling.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Doing things with gut feeling is not a uniquely conservative attribute---its human nature--facts or historical precedents that support our feelings are gleefully cited--those facts or historical arguements that don't support our already made conclusion are conviently ignored.

I actually agree with your statement but that tends to be the knee jerk liberal in me--but I have always hated what I call Rush Limbuagh logic--which your post most typifies.

But I might go on and point out what I see as the glaring flaw in our current neo-cons---its partly their pre-conceived notions that their solution to a given problem is the right choice---but the glaring defect I then see is that they then ignore all mid-course realality checks---for example--we did not get greeted with flowers and candy in Iraq-----but where is the swift evolution of plan B when that did not happen---here we all are--three years later and we are still stuck the the same neo-cons still trying to blunder through with plan A.

 

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: dullard
History doesn't always repeat itself. And people/countries can change. Living solely in the past is far worse than ignoring the past. Assuming the past is a great predictor of the future is also worse than ignoring the past.

Historical facts are important (lessons can be learned from history), but don't overplay them.

For every person who overplays historical fact you can find hundreds who either ignore them or even deny them. I've heard so many of our government's recent abuses denied and attacks on civil liberties excused by people rationalizing that "our government would never do that," thus denying very real histroical examples of how our government has done it. The same applies for some of the stuff pulled by corporations.

It would be one thing if people acknowledged these historic examples but offered some well-reasoned thoughts on why it will be different this time. Flat-out denial, however, is dangerous. I see way more denial than I see well-reasoned thought.

This is what im trying to get at. Many things can be learned from history. Many people say "our government would never do that," when we have done all types of dirty things for differnt reasons. It is as if we have never supported a dictator. We sponsored Saddam when he was "gassing the kurds" - And now we sit back like this never happened. We have supported many dictators over the years and we continute to do it today. Take a look a Somalia for recent examples. I think Noam was right.....

 

[z3R0C00L]

I agree...
There is no definite right or wrong (black or white) in any issue/argument facing our people(s)/societies. Often the true answers are found in the shades of grey.

The problem currently, in America at least, is that politicians are playing the whole black and white/ Good cop, Bad cop mentality.

A Republican says one thing... then a Democrat disagree's and says the opposite.. eventhough.. on that certain topic... the most logical answer may be closer to the solution the republican candidate put forward.

I'm a Liberal minded individual with some Conservative aspects (mainly Fiscally conservative)... I suppose if I were to compare my views to a US politician it would have been William Jefferson Clinton. I believe in a strong economy, fiscal balance and an adequate military (not a huge military). I also believe in Universal Healthcare and Public Social Security.

 

[Witling]

I think you've omitted the role of "astonishing ignorance." As one example, there was a guy on this board who was ranting and raving about the Democrats styming Bush's judicial nominations. He had no idea that the Republicans had done the same thing for Clinton or, more importantly, that they had approved the overwhelming majority of appointed judges. The news industry is lousy at pointing out things like this. A fairly non-controversial judge being approved just isn't news.

Dullard, you said "Assuming the past is a great predictor of the future is also worse than ignoring the past." I agree with much that you say. Frequently we learn the wrong lessons from history, e.g., the Maginot Line. But, the maxim in the social sciences is that "Past behavior is the best single predictor of future behavior." It's not always right, but it's the way the smart money bets. As an example, the situation in Iraq was completely predictable and was, in fact, predicted. The days of shipping troops in to take over a country are pretty much over for the major countries.

 

[sandorski]

We Good, They Bad. 😉

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Skanderberg
I think it is like this everywhere. People like to remember the good things and forget the bad things. Here in Japan they don't teach WWII history the same way that it is taught in the States. In Germany they don't mention Hitler or the Nazi party. In America we tend to gloss over Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Every nation wants to believe thier half truths about history to make themselves feel better about the country they were born into.

Germany doesn't teach about Hitler or the Nazi party? American glosses over Hirshima and Nagasaki? ummm... 😕

 

[Moonbeam]

The answer, of course, is that we hate ourselves and identify with externals as a substitute for self respect. Thus, in order not to feel how bad we really do feel, we have to defend our false front at all costs. Only self love that frees one from the need to identify so one can be objective.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: z3R0C00L
Conservatives don't like to be reminded of historical facts.. or facts all together... they've VERY content on doing things by gut feeling.

speak for yourself!
You cannot possibly put all conservatives or even a majority in the same pot!

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: z3R0C00L
Conservatives don't like to be reminded of historical facts.. or facts all together... they've VERY content on doing things by gut feeling.

speak for yourself!
You cannot possibly put all conservatives or even a majority in the same pot!

Irony, noun: JEDIYoda bitching about someone making political generalizations.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Originally posted by: jrenz
They gloss over Hiroshima and Nagasaki? I've learned about it in almost every history class I've ever taken. I don't see why we'd have to gloss over it. It ended a war that would have wound up taking many times more casualties had it continued. Problem?

Did you learn about the firebombing of Toyko which killed more people then either Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

After 2 hours of bombardment the wooden city of Tokyo was engulfed in a firestorm. These fires were so hot they would literally ignite the clothing on individuals as they were fleeing. What was particularly horrifying was a lot of the women were wearing what were called 'air-raid turbans' around their heads and the heat would ignite those turbans like igniting a wick on a candle to start consuming the flame. The aftermath of the incendiary bombings lead to an estimated 100,000 Japanese dead. This may have been the most devasting single raid ever carried out by aircraft in any war including the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Firebombing

😉

 

[JEDIYoda]

Im still trying to understand why the Klingon uprising on Alberon12 is not mentioned in any history books.........I see a cover up...

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Orignal Earl

Originally posted by: jrenz
They gloss over Hiroshima and Nagasaki? I've learned about it in almost every history class I've ever taken. I don't see why we'd have to gloss over it. It ended a war that would have wound up taking many times more casualties had it continued. Problem?

Did you learn about the firebombing of Toyko which killed more people then either Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

After 2 hours of bombardment the wooden city of Tokyo was engulfed in a firestorm. These fires were so hot they would literally ignite the clothing on individuals as they were fleeing. What was particularly horrifying was a lot of the women were wearing what were called 'air-raid turbans' around their heads and the heat would ignite those turbans like igniting a wick on a candle to start consuming the flame. The aftermath of the incendiary bombings lead to an estimated 100,000 Japanese dead. This may have been the most devasting single raid ever carried out by aircraft in any war including the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Firebombing

😉

Kind of hard to feel sorry for them after all the atrocities they commited against other nations and their population.

 

[GrGr]

We are innocent -------------------- They are guilty
We tell the truth - inform ------------- They lie - use propaganda
We only defend ourselves ------------- They are aggressors
We have a defense department ------------ They have a war department
Our missiles and weapons are designed to deter ---------- Their missiles and weapons are designed for a first strike

-------------------

We see this daily on these forums

 

[Orignal Earl]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Kind of hard to feel sorry for them after all the atrocities they commited against other nations and their population.

I wasn't trying to make a feel sorry for them point, just a sometimes the worst things are left out of most books point 😉

 

[Jhhnn]

It's called Denial, and it's an unfortunate outcome of refusing to deal with cognitive dissonance. We all have a tendency to want to believe people who tell us what we want to hear, and are inclined to ignore or discard any evidence to the contrary.

That particular aspect of human psychology has been ruthlessly exploited by those currently in power. Their only competition in terms of propaganda power was the Nazis, whose methods have merely been refined by their ideological heirs, the current crop of Neocons...

As with the Nazis, there has to be a certain amount of delusional thinking in order to have to resort to such methods, and to think that doing so is actually constructive. They too have their blind spots, and have failed to learn the lessons of Vietnam and Somalia... and a bunch of other history, as well...