Ntdz. Your your third post that said "If you read the entire thread, and specifically my 2nd post, you'd know what leads me to believe that [we can win]." But, in your second post you attempted a bit of slight of hand. Here's your criterium from the first post on what winning is, "Winning = leaving Iraq with a democratic government who can defend itself from the insurgents... " Note that thar "democratic government" criteria. Here's the operative statement from your 2nd post, in which you set so much stock. "However, we can't leave until the government is strong enough to survive while the insurgency is dissipated." Please note that you completely dropped the requirement for a democratic government. We can claptrap something together strong enough and brutal enouth to resist insurgents, but if winning means "democratic government," there is no way we can do it. Democratic government requires a pretty extensive infra structure, including some kind of believe in the efficacy of law. Oh yeah, when we pull out -- and we will -- there will be something pasted on to Iraq that looks semi-democratic but I doubt that it will last five years.
I think Iraq needs to exclude all Sunni's for office and hunt down all the War Criminals and start putting those individuals who have worked for Sadam to death for War Crimes. This is the only way you can ever make peace in Iraq. There should be a curfew and no one allowed on the street at night. Then the Iraqi's need to start running all the patrols and the US Military should only be used to do emergency security jobs. We need to do more patrolling outside the cities looking for people sneaking accross the border and people moving stuff around at night.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
- 1,379
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Only with the most severe measures imaginable would there be the possibility of a 'win' for US presence in Iraq.
Only the most ignorant of history and middle eastern religion, race, and culture could think that the US will magically create a free and peaceful state in less than 50 years of hardship.
This is a part of the world where blood doesn't stain the soil, it *IS* the soil.
Only the most ignorant of history and middle eastern religion, race, and culture could think that the US will magically create a free and peaceful state in less than 50 years of hardship.
This is a part of the world where blood doesn't stain the soil, it *IS* the soil.
CaptnKirk
Lifer
- Jul 25, 2002
- 10,053
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It's already lost, and those who think we can win are simply refusing to face reality.
No matter how long we choose to squander our countrys wealth and soldiers there, we will always retract
and they will always be there doing what they have all through history - living to their standards and rejecting our philosophy of life and politics.
Just like in 'Nam - we didn't understand their culture - and still don't.
If that's what passes for planning in the armed forces, no wonder we're still stuck there. :roll:
Just to be clear, patience, dedication and tenacity are all fine qualities...but they are NOT substitutes for intelligence or planning, and quite frankly I'm not sure the folks calling the shots understand the difference. Damn sure you don't, and while you're just the pointy end of the stick, I'm not sure the guys at the other end understand it either. To use a favorite joke among physics geeks, the problem is that you guys are all thrust and no vector.
Exactly. We could've "kept at" Vietnam for many more years but it would've done sod-all. You must know your enemy before you can defeat him, and you must know yourself before you can know your enemy. We're having problems with both prongs of that.
I predict that you are wrong, I think the insurgents will eventually gain government positions..or at least have sway with the government..
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
We would win if we pulled out and all the middle east went to war with one another. A great big Sunni/Shi'a blood bath, wasting thier men, materials, money fighting one another instead of us and israel. A cursory benefit will be they must dump oil to fund thier wars. Divide and conquer.
the only way to win to this:
partition iraq
1 part kurdistan
1 part to be absorbed by a shiite state
1 part to be absorbed by a sunni state.
alternatively you could just partition 3 separate countries.
partition iraq
1 part kurdistan
1 part to be absorbed by a shiite state
1 part to be absorbed by a sunni state.
alternatively you could just partition 3 separate countries.
In my opinion, winning in Iraq means leaving the country with a good enough quality of life that radicals can't recruit the disenfranchised and point a finger to the west blaming them for their lot in life.
shira
Diamond Member
- Jan 12, 2005
- 9,500
- 6
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Notice the implicit assumption in ntdz's posts that insurgents are the main cause of the instability in Iraq. I think he's been listening to (and believing) too much Bushite rhetoric.
ntdz: Get a clue. The problem isn't insurgents. The problem is civil war.
CaptnKirk
Lifer
- Jul 25, 2002
- 10,053
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That just puts Iraq back to the position that it was in around 1918 before when the Brits formed Iraq
out of 3 waring factions of the Arabian Empire that the Brittish had been trying to rule, but engading in
warfare in their attempt to appease the. Their solution then was to institute a dictatorship called Iraq,
and get the hell out befor it got worse. Even at that it took until near the end of WWII to extract themselves.
You ready to go another 30+ years in the situation that we have made over there?I wish someone would hve given Bush a 'Laurence of Arabia' coloring book and a red crayon to make the blood look realistic.
Winning Iraq would mean taking out the previous leadership (Saddam Hussein (already done)) and reestablishing a government that is willing to work with the US and other nations. We're closer to it, but it is a slow progress and I think most Americnans, including myself, were more frustrated with the lack of progress than anything else.
You know I tend to think of the the way the administration approached the invasion as corporate hostile takeover. Unfortunately there isn't an SEC to enforce or limit the reactions of the Iraqi's or other stakeholders in the region. here is an axample of whyfacism is "dumb"
If the Bush administration had any of those, the mess in Iraq would never exist. This was the whole reason this idiotic war was started, because the US was too impatient to actually wait for UN inspectors to confirm that there were in fact no WMD's in Iraq.
To try and bring these 'virtues' up now, when the Bush administration had none of those 3 in 2002-2003 is irony at its best.
shortylickens
No Lifer
- Jul 15, 2003
- 80,287
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In any game you actually have to define what consitutes a "win".
Not winning had better be a viable alternative because we will never know what a win is.
In reference to ntdz's comment: That goal was not made clear and was not even a goal at the beginning.
I have no problem with our troops fighting for other peoples freedom. But we should have clear goals and clear plans to obtain it. Also, realistic plans are nice too, and the logistics to support them.
EDIT: Rainsford made the point much better. Just read what he said.
Schadenfroh
Elite Member
- Mar 8, 2003
- 38,416
- 4
- 0
What government ? You'll never see a pro-US and pro-Israel goverment in Iraq. Sorry just won't happen with the cultral, political and religious environment in Iraq. Any government that is strong enough to defend itself in Iraq will be either a dictatorship or a government run by Sunni's only, or Shiites only and those types of governments are not going to falling over themselves to kiss our butt.
Bitek
Lifer
- Aug 2, 2001
- 10,676
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That's what I've thought at times. Let Osama and his Merry Sunni Men go fight the Iranian Shias for a while and they'll be too busy to F w/ us. Stop building Fing schools and post offices for those who would rather blow themselves up than live in peace.
The whole democracy thing was a nice but fanciful idea, but time to be machivellian before we run overselves into the ground.
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