Why do records sound so awesome?

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
33
91
I haven't heard anything on vinyl in a number of years and had the priviledge of hearing some played yesterday. Amazing. So, what is it about a record/record player that makes it sound so much better, so much more detailed, so much more dynamic than my CDs?
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
I haven't heard anything on vinyl in a number of years and had the priviledge of hearing some played yesterday. Amazing. So, what is it about a record/record player that makes it sound so much better, so much more detailed, so much more dynamic than my CDs?

analog vs digital

i remember when CD's first came out and audiophiles argued for the longest time that digital sound would never match the full richness of analog sound.

 

Vegitto

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
5,234
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Nothing, it's the dynamic range and the mastering. Today, records have to sound louder than the competitions. In the old days, it was more about if a particular instrument was loud enough on the record.. That's the difference.
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
33
91
Originally posted by: Vegitto
Nothing, it's the dynamic range and the mastering. Today, records have to sound louder than the competitions. In the old days, it was more about if a particular instrument was loud enough on the record.. That's the difference.

That is one thing I definitely noticed. I could actually hear clearly each string being hit during a strum on this one acoustic song. I went back and compared it to the CD I had and it almost made me feel like I had imagined the whole thing.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
I haven't heard anything on vinyl in a number of years and had the priviledge of hearing some played yesterday. Amazing. So, what is it about a record/record player that makes it sound so much better, so much more detailed, so much more dynamic than my CDs?

If you like the sound of lps great.

I wonder which format you would prefer if you did a double blind comparison, using the same system where the sound levels were the same.
 

rstrohkirch

Platinum Member
May 31, 2005
2,434
367
126
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
I haven't heard anything on vinyl in a number of years and had the priviledge of hearing some played yesterday. Amazing. So, what is it about a record/record player that makes it sound so much better, so much more detailed, so much more dynamic than my CDs?

If you like the sound of lps great.

I wonder which format you would prefer if you did a double blind comparison, using the same system where the sound levels were the same.

And then make sure that the cd has no dynamic compression
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
33
91
Originally posted by: rstrohkirch
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
I haven't heard anything on vinyl in a number of years and had the priviledge of hearing some played yesterday. Amazing. So, what is it about a record/record player that makes it sound so much better, so much more detailed, so much more dynamic than my CDs?

If you like the sound of lps great.

I wonder which format you would prefer if you did a double blind comparison, using the same system where the sound levels were the same.

And then make sure that the cd has no dynamic compression

But isn't that the problem? I did some reading about this after posting the thread and realized that apparently they could release CDs with a much greater dynamic range but choose to heavily compress the audio instead. Apparently we are now oblivious to the difference?

To Sidd, believe me, the audio that I listened to was completely different from the CD. I'd be glad to participate in a blind test and have no doubt I would choose correctly.
 

daveshel

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
5,453
2
81
Sound as it occurs in nature is an analog phenomena. Any attempt to digitize it amounts to a game of connect the dots, and there are events that happen too quickly to be faithfully reproduced. These events are outside the range of human hearing, so engineers say they don't matter, but the thing they fail to consider is that these events have an effect on other portions of the spectrum that are within the range of audibility.
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,513
16
81
It's because recordings made for vinyl are engineered to enhance the sound and optimize its character. This is because the market for vinyl has been, for many years, audiophiles or other discerning customers who require a good quality recording.

By contrast, CDs are made for the masses. Recordings are engineered to sound good on low-quality sound systems, or over the background noise in cars, etc. In particular, there is a psychological effect whereby 'louder' music sounds 'better' or is more memorable. CDs for the mass market are therefore engineered to have the maximum loudness and minimum dynamic range.

In terms of the resolution and quality of the recording medium - there can be no doubt that CD is superior. The noise floor is lower, and the frequency and phase response within the audible passband are more accurate. Indeed, the noise floor on CD is so low, that the equivalent in vinyl would be a variation in the depth of the groove, a fraction of the diameter of an molecule.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Because sound is analog.

CDs have always suffered from resolution and tone problems. Listen to cymbals? CDs can't accurately capture the sound of cymbals, vocal, violins, etc the way vinyl can.
 

broon

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2002
3,660
1
81
So basically, it's not the medium, but the way it's produced...the music that is?
 

NanoStuff

Banned
Mar 23, 2006
2,981
1
0
Like has been said, the issue is primarily in the recording itself rather than the medium it is stored on. There are certainly discernible differences between vinyl and CD, but it's hard to pick a winner there for the most part.

High end magnetic tape however would surpass them both in quality, but again, 24/96 digital audio with a high quality DAC would meet it's match here.
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
94
91
Originally posted by: daveshel
Sound as it occurs in nature is an analog phenomena. Any attempt to digitize it amounts to a game of connect the dots, and there are events that happen too quickly to be faithfully reproduced. These events are outside the range of human hearing, so engineers say they don't matter, but the thing they fail to consider is that these events have an effect on other portions of the spectrum that are within the range of audibility.

A frequency outside of our hearing range is effectively filtered. You can remove non-audible frequencies from a signal and leave the others completely in tact. Observing this on charts and graphs in the frequency domain instead of time domain makes it obvious.

The whole digital versus analog thing doesn't fly either. The sampling rate is reduced such that you can fit a pre-determined number of minutes on a CD at a certain quality. The medium would have little to do with it if you recorded the sound at say 32-bit resolution, and as a matter of fact, CDs would be better. The way a record player reads a record is subject to all kinds of physical restrictions that can incur noise, even something as seemingly trivial as coulomb damping.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
Originally posted by: daveshel
Sound as it occurs in nature is an analog phenomena. Any attempt to digitize it amounts to a game of connect the dots, and there are events that happen too quickly to be faithfully reproduced. These events are outside the range of human hearing, so engineers say they don't matter, but the thing they fail to consider is that these events have an effect on other portions of the spectrum that are within the range of audibility.

A frequency outside of our hearing range is effectively filtered. You can remove non-audible frequencies from a signal and leave the others completely in tact. Observing this on charts and graphs in the frequency domain instead of time domain makes it obvious.

The whole digital versus analog thing doesn't fly either. The sampling rate is reduced such that you can fit a pre-determined number of minutes on a CD at a certain quality. The medium would have little to do with it if you recorded the sound at say 32-bit resolution, and as a matter of fact, CDs would be better. The way a record player reads a record is subject to all kinds of physical restrictions that can incur noise, even something as seemingly trivial as coulomb damping.

So basically you agree that LPs sound better?

Those frequencies outside of our range of hearing is what makes trumpet sound different than a trombone (overtones, even/odd order distortion)
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Because reality is analog. A vinyl record is the sound in physical form. The only limitations to true fidelity reproduction (beyond having a good soundsystem) is the quality of the vinyl and the needle.
CD's OTOH are a digital reproduction consisting of 65,536 tones sampled at a rate of 44,100 times per second.
It is telling IMO of what digital has done to music that I once had an argument with an audiophile as to whether or not the purpose of a good soundsystem is to faithfully reproduce the music as close as possible to what it sounded like in the studio. The very idea that anyone would or could think otherwise continues to blow my mind. But hey, we all know mp3's are just as good as CD's and CD's are just as good as vinyl, right? ;)
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
94
91
Originally posted by: Vic
Because reality is analog. A vinyl record is the sound in physical form. The only limitations to true fidelity reproduction (beyond having a good soundsystem) is the quality of the vinyl and the needle.
CD's OTOH are a digital reproduction consisting of 65,536 tones sampled at a rate of 44,100 times per second.
It is telling IMO of what digital has done to music that I once had an argument with an audiophile as to whether or not the purpose of a good soundsystem is to faithfully reproduce the music as close as possible to what it sounded like in the studio. The very idea that anyone would or could think otherwise continues to blow my mind. But hey, we all know mp3's are just as good as CD's and CD's are just as good as vinyl, right? ;)

Actually, it isn't. A recording device with high enough resolution would record quantized packets of energy, which is not analog by any means. All interactions at the atomic level happen in quantized states with varying energy levels, but quantized nonetheless. This is translated into what appears to be an analog world which we again translate back into digital for ease of storage and transmission.

No, mp3s aren't the same as CDs and CDs aren't the same as vinyl, but that really has nothing to do with the medium to a point. A 32-bit sampling of an analog wave is pretty damn precise for all intents and purposes. I'd have a hard time believing a human could tell the difference after spending as much time as I have making embedded devices play and record sound. I usually use 10-bit ADC for ease of programming, but have scaled as high as 20-bit and if you do an output compare on the input wave versus the captured sequence, the error margins get really tight, really fast. At 24-bit, which DVD audio uses, the error rates are much more acceptable than CD. If we were to use 32-bit, you'd have to deal with less songs per CD/DVD, but the quality would be essentially the same as vinyl. That shouldn't be a problem for audiophiles since vinyls hardly hold any music anyway, but it wouldn't work for the masses.


Originally posted by: spidey07

So basically you agree that LPs sound better?

Those frequencies outside of our range of hearing is what makes trumpet sound different than a trombone (overtones, even/odd order distortion)

No, the timbre, or color, of the instrument enables you to distinguish one from the other. The frequencies outside of our range have no bearing on this. Two different instruments playing A will sound different because the combination of the fundamental frequency and all of the accompanying overtones. Even if there is vibration at 28KHz, we won't hear it and it doesn't have anything to do with the other overtones that reach our ear. The only reason it is important is because it is part of the system producing the other overtones, but doesn't change them simply because it is there. It also depends on how the overtones relate to the fundamental, meaning if they are harmonic or inharmonic, which is a property of the individual instrument.

Natural resonance is just as easy to describe and understand in physical systems such as an airplane. The wings have a natural resonance that needs to be damped in order for the oscillation to remain controlled.
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,513
16
81
Reality is analogue. Whenever you convert A to D, you lose information. What actually matters is whether your analogue method loses more data than the conversion from A to D.

CDs are 65,536 levels, 44.1 kHz. If you converted that signal to vinyl, you could imagine that the resulting groove would have a 'squareness' or a 'lumpiness' that vinyl made from an analogue recording would not. How big would these 'lumps' be? The answer is 1/65536 of the depth of the groove (0.05 mm) - this gives a 'lump size' of 700 pm, that's marginally larger than the chlorine atoms in the PVC molecules, let alone the complex molecules that make up the structure of the vinyl itself, or indeed the carbon granules that give the material its strength.

So, the best possible vinyl reproduction would be 'lumpier' than the size of the lumps coming from the inaccuracies of CD ADC. If you want a 'best possible' estimate of the digital equivalence of a vinyl recording it would be about 12-bit, 36 kHz.

It only gets worse from there, numerous other effects degrade the performance of vinyl: intermodulation between the left and right channels (vinyl has poor separation of channels, whereas CD faithfully reproduces both channels), and there are minor bleed-through effects from one groove to a neighbouring one, as well as numerous mechanical limitations, such as change in rotation speed of the disc due to frictional effects, etc. Never mind what actually wear does to the groove from contact with the stylus.

Certain niche audiophile vinyl recordings may use different specifications - e.g. deeper grooves, higher rotation rates, together with special needles, etc. but these are not necessarily compatible with more standard equipment.

It's also interesting that people disagree on what the purpose of a good sound system? Is it to faithfully reproduce the sound as it existed in the studio? If so, why are devices such as 'tube amps' so popular among audiophiles - their strong distortion and modulation dashes hopes of faithful reproduction. Perhaps it's because many people want the sound reproduced as they would like to hear it.

Digital can always be improved by adding more bits, or a faster sample rate. But, what are the useful limits?

Current high-end digital converters are 24 bit, 192 kHz. This gives a theoretical dynamic range of 144 dB, and 96 kHz of bandwidth. In fact, this dynamic range is so high, that even the finest quality analogue circuits can't come close to matching it - even the internal analogue circuits in the converter are a significant limiting factor, giving about 120 dB as the limit.

But what about sound sources? Even the best studio microphones can't offer better than 100 dB - in other words, the microphone alone produced 10x more noise than the ADC. Then the preamps add noise.

Then finally at reproduction time you've got the amps and speakers. 100 dB is about the limit for amps, and 90 dB the limit for speakers.

There's no point going any higher that 24/192 because all you'll be recording/reproducing is noise. There are, perhaps, some theoretical benefits in going higher, because it gives more headroom for sophisticated digital processing, but that could be obtained by resampling the data to a faster sample rate.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,920
2,161
126
Compression kills music on digital. The top and the bottom end of any recording are cut off to save space and to even things out.

A lot of big bands are releasig vinyl again. Kind of neat to see them in stores. Record covers are a lost are these days.
 

LordNoob

Senior member
Nov 16, 2003
998
8
81
I've got an expensive Super Audio CD/DVD audio player and a run of the mill turntable I bought refurbished. I played Abbey Road simultaneously and changed the inputs on my receiver back and forth and everyone agreed the record made the CD sound cold, tinny, and lifeless.