Why do Americans think the Democrats are left wing?

[tm37]

You have no clue of what you're talking about. Just thought I'd let you know.

Ahhh.... the easiest form of debate avoidance and name calling.

FACT The health care bill takes my money and reduces my benefit to increase the level of health care for those who have not accomplished what I have.

Or you can name call and run away.

<- not a republican

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

Ahhh.... the easiest form of debate avoidance and name calling.

FACT The health care bill takes my money and reduces my benefit to increase the level of health care for those who have not accomplished what I have.

Or you can name call and run away.

<- not a republican

What you just said doesn't mean much when you look at the first problem with all your arguments: you don't know what Liberalism means or entails.

The first statement you made in your previous post was inaccurate, and it rendered everything following it to be inaccurate as well because of it.

Liberal or progressives feel that the government is the answer to every problem. The democrats and our president share this view.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Marxist/Communist is FAR FAR left. In the same way that Facism is FAR FAR right.

Bullshit. Fascism gets its power from the same corrupted collectivist tree of ideology that brought fourth socialism and communism. It holds the same views that diminishes the individual for the sake of the "majority" (aka state and private entities that side with the state for protection and influence). Meanwhile it is trampling over individuals rights (both economic and social) while using appeals to authority "The will of the people" to further commit acts of state forced confiscation and coercion "or else" in order to meet its agenda.

 

[tm37]

What you just said doesn't mean much when you look at the first problem with all your arguments: you don't know what Liberalism means or entails.

The first statement you made in your previous post was inaccurate, and it rendered everything following it to be inaccurate as well because of it.

a political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, nonviolent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor, and governmental guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties.

Our liberal left have taken this to the edge.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

a political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, nonviolent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor, and governmental guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties.

Our liberal left have taken this to the edge.

Governmental guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties does not equal "the government is the answer to every problem".

That's referring to social issues, unless you conveniently forgot (wouldn't surprise me) that those are not the only types of problems. Given that you're drawing social issues as being 'every' problem, can you explain what's so evil about being in favor of individual rights or civil liberties?

 

[schneiderguy]

They aren't. The US doesn't have a serious left wing voice on capital hill, aside from maybe a person here or there. They have right of centre, right, and crazy screaming rabid hyena right. My own politics are what I'd consider left to left of centre. There are lots and lots of people farther left than me and while they may not have a lot of representation in govenment here, there is at least the sense that there is representation even out that far left. For the mainstream left, and centre left there is quite a lot of representation. And I'm not talking about having separate left wing political parties, voting in MPs (senators, members of congress whatever title they may have) is all the representation I mean. Like I said I know there are a few voices here and there in the US that ARE liberal/left in this sense but from a global perspective they are extremely underrepresented. For example we currently have a majority conservative government, and fairly conservative at that (at least from a global point of view) and yet the major opposition party is the NDP (a party with many views to the left of my own).

It always stuns me when people in the US get riled up about the liberal media, the left wing this, the left wing that. There IS no left wing to talk about for the most part. You are kidding yourself if you think Obama is anything but a centrist, and right of centre on a lot of things.

QUESTION FOR THOSE OF YOU HERE LIVING IN THE US WHO SELF IDENTIFY AS LEFT WING: Do you agree with the above assessment or not?

What "left wing" views do you have that you feel are unrepresented in the United States?

 

[UberNeuman]

Lot of it is a hold over from the late 50's into the 60's and 70's when the eyes of the small town America had to start facing the fact that the Leave it to Beaver idea of the U.S.A. wasn't the real deal... So who opened those eyes - it would be considered the "radical left," but those days ended long ago...

These hard-right republican knobs refuse to see that the 80's killed off that spirit - and what has taken their place are those "middle of the road" type of democrats - those "reagan democrats" they so glom onto....

"The Left" is just another one of their Boogie-men....

 

[ProfJohn]

That doesn't change the fact it's incorrect. Just because a lot of people believe something doesn't make it right (see appeal to the majority). As said above, the political scale is not something decided by the US.

The US Democratic Party is not left-wing by definition.

It depends on who is doing the defining.

There is no universal chart that we can lay out and pin point where each politician or political party stands. It is all relative and in the US the Democrats ARE left wing and the Republicans are right wing. That is reality.

 

[RbSX]

This thread did not take long to turn into a giant America-centric politik fuck fest.

 

[tm37]

Governmental guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties does not equal "the government is the answer to every problem".

That's referring to social issues, unless you conveniently forgot (wouldn't surprise me) that those are not the only types of problems. Given that you're drawing social issues as being 'every' problem, can you explain what's so evil about being in favor of individual rights or civil liberties?

Depends on what you define as rights. I would say that no person has the right to take something of mine but for the sake of "everyone's" rights this occurs every day.

when you look at the definition and those that claim to be liberal or progressive on the political scale the majority of them feel that everyone should have to pay there fair share to pay for the things that they think are important. (health care, unemployment insurance, welfare)
\
Food is not a right nor is medical care.

The issue is that in order to protect all of our rights many will pay and often it is difficult to determine who is doing the paying and how much they pay.

I am not claiming the democrats are communists or marixists. I am saying that liberals are to the left.

Looking at the spectrum and the different issues social and economic the definition of what is a right is.

You do not the right to a high or living wage, you have the right to reach an agreement with another person or company to provide a service they need or want for a level of compensation that you both agree to. If I think you are worth $1 an hour and you think I should pay you $100 an hour well it is your right not to take the job and mine not to hire you.

Again it is the definition of what is a right.

 

[tm37]

Lot of it is a hold over from the late 50's into the 60's and 70's when the eyes of the small town America had to start facing the fact that the Leave it to Beaver idea of the U.S.A. wasn't the real deal... So who opened those eyes - it would be considered the "radical left," but those days ended long ago...

These hard-right republican knobs refuse to see that the 80's killed off that spirit - and what has taken their place are those "middle of the road" type of democrats - those "reagan democrats" they so glom onto....

"The Left" is just another one of their Boogie-men....

The country is pretty center right.

If you think the the pin heads on the radio and faux news represent the center right majority in this country you are not paying attention.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

They aren't. The US doesn't have a serious left wing voice on capital hill, aside from maybe a person here or there. They have right of centre, right, and crazy screaming rabid hyena right. My own politics are what I'd consider left to left of centre. There are lots and lots of people farther left than me and while they may not have a lot of representation in govenment here, there is at least the sense that there is representation even out that far left. For the mainstream left, and centre left there is quite a lot of representation. And I'm not talking about having separate left wing political parties, voting in MPs (senators, members of congress whatever title they may have) is all the representation I mean. Like I said I know there are a few voices here and there in the US that ARE liberal/left in this sense but from a global perspective they are extremely underrepresented. For example we currently have a majority conservative government, and fairly conservative at that (at least from a global point of view) and yet the major opposition party is the NDP (a party with many views to the left of my own).

It always stuns me when people in the US get riled up about the liberal media, the left wing this, the left wing that. There IS no left wing to talk about for the most part. You are kidding yourself if you think Obama is anything but a centrist, and right of centre on a lot of things.

QUESTION FOR THOSE OF YOU HERE LIVING IN THE US WHO SELF IDENTIFY AS LEFT WING: Do you agree with the above assessment or not?

What political beliefs constitute left-wing ones by your definition of the word? You basically just repeat yourself saying "Your guys' idea of left wing is not my idea of left wing" without stating how our purported-as-left officials are not so.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

It depends on who is doing the defining.

There is no universal chart that we can lay out and pin point where each politician or political party stands. It is all relative and in the US the Democrats ARE left wing and the Republicans are right wing. That is reality.

You can make up definitions if you want, but it doesn't change what it actually means.

Lets take "sports car" and "minivan" and interchange their meanings. Now lets assume all of the US uses the "new definition". Does sports car now vary in its definition objectively depending on who you ask? Of course it doesn't.

The US doesn't hold a verdict on what the word means, no matter how much you want that to change.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

Depends on what you define as rights. I would say that no person has the right to take something of mine but for the sake of "everyone's" rights this occurs every day.

when you look at the definition and those that claim to be liberal or progressive on the political scale the majority of them feel that everyone should have to pay there fair share to pay for the things that they think are important. (health care, unemployment insurance, welfare)
\
Food is not a right nor is medical care.

The issue is that in order to protect all of our rights many will pay and often it is difficult to determine who is doing the paying and how much they pay.

I am not claiming the democrats are communists or marixists. I am saying that liberals are to the left.

Looking at the spectrum and the different issues social and economic the definition of what is a right is.

You do not the right to a high or living wage, you have the right to reach an agreement with another person or company to provide a service they need or want for a level of compensation that you both agree to. If I think you are worth $1 an hour and you think I should pay you $100 an hour well it is your right not to take the job and mine not to hire you.

Again it is the definition of what is a right.

Yes, but again, the US Democratic Party is not left-wing. Not even looking at the social issues only.

 

[UberNeuman]

If you think the the pin heads on the radio and faux news represent the center right majority in this country you are not paying attention.

Then please tell me - who do these "pin heads on the radio and faux news" and the party of tea represent?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

You can make up definitions if you want, but it doesn't change what it actually means.

Lets take "sports car" and "minivan" and interchange their meanings. Now lets assume all of the US uses the "new definition". Does sports car now vary in its definition objectively depending on who you ask? Of course it doesn't.

The US doesn't hold a verdict on what the word means, no matter how much you want that to change.

lol, you're the guy that got all butthurt over how 'liberal' is no longer used in the 1700's classical liberal sense of the word. This isn't a matter of the USA defining 'left-wing' differently from the rest of the world, per se. Any such political labels are obviously going to be used according to the context of the country they are being used in, so a politician that is relatively left-wing to Americans is going to be described accordingly.

 

[tm37]

You can make up definitions if you want, but it doesn't change what it actually means.

Lets take "sports car" and "minivan" and interchange their meanings. Now lets assume all of the US uses the "new definition". Does sports car now vary in its definition objectively depending on who you ask? Of course it doesn't.

The US doesn't hold a verdict on what the word means, no matter how much you want that to change.

When looking at the political spectrum in the US the democrats on most issues lean to the left.

If your argument is that they are not Lenin and therefor not left leaning then you are a fool.

There are others who may be further to the left but the democratic party in the US is too the left.

 

[tm37]

Yes, but again, the US Democratic Party is not left-wing. Not even looking at the social issues only.

Explain how they are not left wing.

 

[Nebor]

lol, you're the guy that got all butthurt over how 'liberal' is no longer used in the 1700's classical liberal sense of the word. This isn't a matter of the USA defining 'left-wing' differently from the rest of the world, per se. Any such political labels are obviously going to be used according to the context of the country they are being used in, so a politician that is relatively left-wing to Americans is going to be described accordingly.

He's also the child that got in a 15 page semantics debate trying to convince people that illegally downloading music, movies and video games isn't "stealing."

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

lol, you're the guy that got all butthurt over how 'liberal' is no longer used in the 1700's classical liberal sense of the word. This isn't a matter of the USA defining 'left-wing' differently from the rest of the world, per se. Any such political labels are obviously going to be used according to the context of the country they are being used in, so a politician that is relatively left-wing to Americans is going to be described accordingly.

Clearly being more left-leaning than the extremely right-wing ("Republican") makes you a liberal.

Are you now gonna say a politician from Saudi Arabia is "left-wing" because he doesn't support the killing of homosexuals yet still supports sexism against women? After all, it is relatively left-wing to Arabians.

 

[WHAMPOM]

They aren't. The US doesn't have a serious left wing voice on capital hill, aside from maybe a person here or there. They have right of centre, right, and crazy screaming rabid hyena right. My own politics are what I'd consider left to left of centre. There are lots and lots of people farther left than me and while they may not have a lot of representation in govenment here, there is at least the sense that there is representation even out that far left. For the mainstream left, and centre left there is quite a lot of representation. And I'm not talking about having separate left wing political parties, voting in MPs (senators, members of congress whatever title they may have) is all the representation I mean. Like I said I know there are a few voices here and there in the US that ARE liberal/left in this sense but from a global perspective they are extremely underrepresented. For example we currently have a majority conservative government, and fairly conservative at that (at least from a global point of view) and yet the major opposition party is the NDP (a party with many views to the left of my own).

It always stuns me when people in the US get riled up about the liberal media, the left wing this, the left wing that. There IS no left wing to talk about for the most part. You are kidding yourself if you think Obama is anything but a centrist, and right of centre on a lot of things.

QUESTION FOR THOSE OF YOU HERE LIVING IN THE US WHO SELF IDENTIFY AS LEFT WING: Do you agree with the above assessment or not?

Probably because they let the Right Wing define what the Left is. Anything left of their political stance, no Central at all.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

Explain how they are not left wing.

Let's see here: abortion, drugs, immigration, government spending, foreign policy (see military), and many others. Just at the top of my head.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Clearly being more left-leaning than the extremely right-wing ("Republican") makes you a liberal.

Are you now gonna say a politician from Saudi Arabia is "left-wing" because he doesn't support the killing of homosexuals yet still supports sexism against women? After all, it is relatively left-wing to Arabians.

That's not really what I said. I'm saying that until someone here posts a clear, universal definition of what constitutes a left-wing or a right-wing individual, any such labeling can be assumed to be stated relative to whatever country that person belongs to. Locut0s is wondering why we don't use his Canadian viewpoint of the term left-wing and I'm wondering why we should. Additionally, I'm wondering what his "global perspective" is. I'd imagine that he and others (myself included to an extent) would identify many fundamentalist Islamic countries as being extremely right-wing at least in a social sense, yet your average American fundamentalist Christian isn't going to say "Hey, I'm moderate when you look in a global context!"

If such a political party arose in Saudi Arabia I would have no problem with the said Arabs referring to themselves as the Saudi Liberal Party.

Let's see here: abortion, drugs, immigration, government spending, foreign policy (see military), and many others. Just at the top of my head.

Abortion: How so? Is it so hard to get an abortion in America? Last I checked it was illegal to even protest outside of abortion clinics if one is determined to be harassing towards its customers.

Drugs: True.

Immigration: How so? Both Republicans and Democrats alike love the inflow of cheap labor that we get from immigration.

Government spending: Are you saying that minimizing government spending is inherently left-wing? Because neither party has any problem with spending $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Foreign policy: True at least as far as the military is concerned, if one defines non-intervention as left-wing. Of course, that would make the most progressive presidents in the USA's history right-wing on that point, so I'm not sure such a definition works. This requires elaboration.

 

[OutHouse]

for many in the US that identify themselves as left wing they are merely doing the opposite of that the republicans do.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

That's not really what I said. I'm saying that until someone here posts a clear, universal definition of what constitutes a left-wing or a right-wing individual, any such labeling can be assumed to be stated relative to whatever country that person belongs to. Locut0s is wondering why we don't use his Canadian viewpoint of the term left-wing and I'm wondering why we should. Additionally, I'm wondering what his "global perspective" is. I'd imagine that he and others (myself included to an extent) would identify many fundamentalist Islamic countries as being extremely right-wing at least in a social sense, yet your average American fundamentalist Christian isn't going to say "Hey, I'm moderate when you look in a global context!"

If such a political party arose in Saudi Arabia I would have no problem with the said Arabs referring to themselves as the Saudi Liberal Party.

Right...

Where I live it's the same as the bastardized "definition" of the US. I'm mentioning the objective, unbiased definition. The definition you're asking for already exists, and in most specific sense Liberalism is the belief in liberty and equal rights. The US Democratic Party already misses the mark on both in some issues. Their views on foreign policies is against that of many (actual) liberals, as well.


Defining things relative to the country you're in is extremely moronic and only leads to confusion and inaccuracies.