Why did we invade Iraq in your own words

[ProfJohn]

Harvey, you still have not listed your reasoning for why we went to war.

You attacked my reasons for sure, but what is your view on this?

And to you and umbrella, if you read the thread you will see that I have not attacked or even questioned someone for their opinion. I created this thread because I wanted to see what the anti-war people think as the reason for the war. The results have been very interesting.

As for the people who attacked my reasoning: My opinion is the same as every politician who supported the war, on both sides, this means Bush, Blair, Clinton, Kerry, Murtha etc. If I am guilty of anything it of believing what all these people say.
Personally, I still believe that what I stated was the main reason for us going to war. It is certain that the whole PNAC may have factored into it, but I don?t think that was the driving force behind the war. But I think Stunt makes a great point here:

Unlike Bush, I have a huge amount of respect for Blair and cannot see him going into Iraq for oil as his nation is working towards kyoto and energy efficient goals. UK also has a very high fuel taxation to reduce consumption of the resource. UK's support of the war from the start and significant involvement is a strong argument against the oil argument made by some people.

 

[dahunan]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry

See this guy www.worldbank.org/wolfowitz .. see how much money he is in charge of .. guess what he convinced our stupid politicians of while he was Deputy Secretary Of Defense

Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz: ?There?s a lot of money to pay for this that doesn?t have to be U.S. taxpayer money, and it starts with the assets of the Iraqi people?and on a rough recollection, the oil revenues of that country could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years?We?re dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon.?

http://www.house.gov/schakowsky/iraqquotes_web.htm

Coinicidentally... ^^ that guy above was also Jerusalem Post MAN OF THE YEAR ..
http://info.jpost.com/C003/Supplements/MOTY/art.01.html

On September 15, 2001, at a meeting in Camp David, he advised President George W. Bush to skip Kabul and train American guns on Baghdad

Also .. look for "Wolfowitz Doctrine"

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Craig234
I think the other side of the coin is that the alternative was so unattractive to Bush. His presidency would have virtually nothing without Iraq and he'd have betrayed his 'base' and looked impotent.

Craig, there is a problem with your whole "Bush would have been a failure with our Iraq" chain of thought. Before we invaded Iraq we had a hugely successful invasion and success in Afghanistan.

I considered that and rejected it, for two reasons at least.

One, Afghanistan did not have the 'legs' that Iraq would. He needed an issue that would carry forward; he saw how his father's huge boost from Gulr War I disappeared.

Two, Afghanistan would not have satisfied the base: read the PNAC documents if you haven't, the plan was Iraq, Iraq, Iraq all along, from the PNAC activities including their letter to Clinton pushing him to invade, to the first security council meeting, to the Cheney energy task force, to his practically ordering Richard Clarke to find an Iraq link hours after 9/11.

He didn't even really want to invade Aghanistan IMO - it was just one of those 'you have to do it since 9/11 is the trigger' situations, where he could do Iraq after.

He appointed PNAC to the top positions for the purpose of invading Iraq, not Afghanistan. They'd have been very, very disappointed had he backed off Iraq IMO.

It would have been very easy for Bush to sit back and rest on those laurels and pressed for UN inspections etc.
Invading Iraq was not the easy route, it was the hard one. The easy route, as I said, was fighting terror with cruise missiles etc for the next 2 years until the election.
You do realize that if Bush had NOT invaded Iraq he would have walked all over Kerry in 2004 and would most likely not have lost as bad in 2006.

You have to look at what he thoght then, not what happened. What he *thought* would happen in Iraq fits just what I said.

Remember, virtually no one disagrees now that they thought 'the war' meant the weeks leading up to 'mission accomplished', and the insurgency was unexpected.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
He who controls the spice, controls the universe! The spice must flow!

Good one Scott The book is most prophetic... I think obviously parallels the ongoing situation in the Middle East... hell Herbert even used the term Jihad about 1000 times to indicate holy war.

Oils is spice.

Arakis = Middle East, a dry desolate space with only one resource the galaxy depends

Paul = Mahdi , an outsider whom will deliver the Fremen/Muslims.

Fremen = Mujahedeen, Fearless fierce fighters whom find death profitable more than life.


I'm sure there are many more but I hav'nt seen the movie in about 15 years..books even longer. In children of dune the holy warriors jihad the universe which we can see happening from Sudan to Indonesia.


Of course I don't beleive we went in for the oil since oil is sold at market rates to anyone who wants to buy it. And Iraq does'nt have enough oil to pay for what we've invested even if we stole it all.

War is a Racket - Those whom profit from it and drive it never changes.

 

[MrMajestyk]

Blair went to war on the basis of phoney intelligence over WMD's.

Bush went to war or rather the Neo-cons went to war using Bush as a figurehead to get a permanent foothold in the Middle East and control oil supplies, taking out Saddam in the process.

What I want to know is this. Why, knowing full well he had no WMD's, did Saddam get to the point of invasion ? Why didn't he give Hans Blix and Co full access ?

 

[Lemon law]

What I want to know is this. Why, knowing full well he had no WMD's, did Saddam get to the point of invasion ? Why didn't he give Hans Blix and Co full access ?

I think the answer will be found later on and proven---Saddam just did not want the world to find out how dangerously weak he was after gulf war one---and making others think he had WMD played into the myth.---keeping rivals in Iraq from overthrowing him and keeping neighboring countries from invading. If we were paying attention just prior to invasion--Saddam was offering all kinds of consessions to stop the invasion---and GWB just was not willing to give peace a chance.

I think it will also come out that the higher level officials in the White House had more than ample evidence to know these WMD's were destroyed---they just chose to conceal it from the American public.

I also wonder what postumous writings by Saddam will emerge---but it may well be that Saddam will
have his revenge---we shall see.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
He who controls the spice, controls the universe! The spice must flow!

Good one Scott The book is most prophetic... I think obviously parallels the ongoing situation in the Middle East... hell Herbert even used the term Jihad about 1000 times to indicate holy war.

Oils is spice.

Arakis = Middle East, a dry desolate space with only one resource the galaxy depends

Paul = Mahdi , an outsider whom will deliver the Fremen/Muslims.

Fremen = Mujahedeen, Fearless fierce fighters whom find death profitable more than life.


I'm sure there are many more but I hav'nt seen the movie in about 15 years..books even longer. In children of dune the holy warriors jihad the universe which we can see happening from Sudan to Indonesia.


Of course I don't beleive we went in for the oil since oil is sold at market rates to anyone who wants to buy it. And Iraq does'nt have enough oil to pay for what we've invested even if we stole it all.

War is a Racket - Those whom profit from it and drive it never changes.

Mark, not Scott, but thanks for seeing where I was going with that bro. :beer: I don't think it is just about Iraq's oil either, I've read about how profitable WW1 was before, and how it has become SOP for the military-industrial complex to use warfare to bolster profits and funding. I do think oil was also a big factor, not just Iraq's though, but also S.A., Kuwait, and some other oil producing neighbors of Saddam, that he had as nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. I know his military was greatly diminished, but they could have still been a real PITA to some neighbors again.

Terrorism is a real threat to those countries now, but it isn't the same as having Saddam's RG roll through town. I may be ount in left field on that, but I don't think Saddam's actions, which led to GW1, sat well with others in the region.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
What I want to know is this. Why, knowing full well he had no WMD's, did Saddam get to the point of invasion ? Why didn't he give Hans Blix and Co full access ?

I think the answer will be found later on and proven---Saddam just did not want the world to find out how dangerously weak he was after gulf war one---and making others think he had WMD played into the myth.---keeping rivals in Iraq from overthrowing him and keeping neighboring countries from invading. If we were paying attention just prior to invasion--Saddam was offering all kinds of consessions to stop the invasion---and GWB just was not willing to give peace a chance.

I think it will also come out that the higher level officials in the White House had more than ample evidence to know these WMD's were destroyed---they just chose to conceal it from the American public.

I also wonder what postumous writings by Saddam will emerge---but it may well be that Saddam will
have his revenge---we shall see.

I think that's right, except that Saddam was cooperating with Hans Blix in the months leading to the invasion.

While Hans had some minor complaints, he made it clear that he was getting enough cooperation to recommend against invading and to estimate finishing in a few months.

As I posted previously, I doubt the White House knew he had no WMD, but I think it didn't matter to them - they used the issue for justifying the war, and manipulated the case to cover up any info otherwise and to exaggerate the evidence and threat. They were reckless with the info and did all but know there were no WMD.

For example, when they knew the way the NSC played with words in the state of the union to say 'British intelligence has reports that...', that was a lie - they knew the info was false which was why they had to say only that the Brits had info about it rather than just saying they believed it, while the implication was that we believed the British reports, when that was not the case. So, 'lied' is really not too strong other than in the most literal sense that yes, the Brits had such reports, but they were intentionally misleading the public.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Harvey, you still have not listed your reasoning for why we went to war.

You attacked my reasons for sure, but what is your view on this?

None of the Liberals on here started this phoney war, your hero and your suport of your hero did.

It is you that on the hot seat not the Liberals.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Of course I don't beleive we went in for the oil since oil is sold at market rates to anyone who wants to buy it. And Iraq does'nt have enough oil to pay for what we've invested even if we stole it all.

War is a Racket - Those whom profit from it and drive it never changes.

I'm not sure of the details, but I'd think nations like China could have made agreements with Saddam we were not pleased with, and preferred a friendly regime, perhaps to limit access.

On the costs, remember the administration's original war cost estimates - they were very low. Remember Wolfowitz saying the war would pay for itself from the oil.

Based on their planned costs, the oil angle holds up as one of the factors.

 

[zinfamous]

Well, you dont' really need to look past Eisenhower to understand why we went into Iraq, and we've gone into any war for that matter.
Check out "Why We Fight." An excellent film, and pretty hard to deny the blatant facts.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Harvey, you still have not listed your reasoning for why we went to war.

John -- There were NO reasons why we went to war in Iraq, only lies, bullsh8 and more lies and bullsh8.

You attacked my reasons for sure, but what is your view on this?

You haven't given any reasons, either. All you've done is parrot the Bushwhackos' excuses for their excuses why their previous excuses were bullsh8.

I already stated my view. I don't want to waste the space to repeat my entire previous post so I'll just repost the conclusion:

ProfJohn -- There are only three possiblities:

1. You're an absolute idiot.

2. You're totally self-deluded.

3. You're an active part of the real "axis of evil," the administration of George W. Bush. :| :| :|

Which is it?

 

[judasmachine]

A persistant feeling that Bush I failed in only kicking Iraq out of Kuwait led to many bruised feelings amongst his advisors, some of whom came back with Bush II and they intended to finish the job. I don't think oil had much to do with it, although to say it had nothing to do with it would be foolish as they planned to pay for the war with oil. Again I also think it had nothing to do with WMDs or 9/11, those were pimped on the public to earn their support. I think that many in the "neo-con" camp just couldn't live with half a war.

 

[lotus503]

Originally posted by: zinfamous
Well, you dont' really need to look past Eisenhower to understand why we went into Iraq, and we've gone into any war for that matter.
Check out "Why We Fight." An excellent film, and pretty hard to deny the blatant facts.

"Why We Fight."


Exactly glad im not the only one here who has seen it

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
He who controls the spice, controls the universe! The spice must flow!

Bingo.

 

[Lemon law]

Thou shalt not covet your neighbors goods----thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor----making GWB a born again Christian?

 

[WHAMPOM]

This my final guess into the mind of Bush, Oedipus Complex? His irrational drive to out do his father.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: slash196
I honestly have no idea why we invaded Iraq, but it most certainly was not for any of the stated reasons.

Agreed 100%

Doesn't everyone here agree that if this country is sent to war, we deserve to be told the truth about the reason why?

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Gaard
Doesn't everyone here agree that if this country is sent to war, we deserve to be told the truth about the reason why?

ProfJohn doesn't agree. His OP just regurgitates whatever's left of the Bushwhacko string of lies, complete with every successive attempt to repaint all the preceding stories as they were shown to be the lies they were.

 

[compuwiz1]

We went to remove a dictator, via a Dicktator.

No good reasons that I can think of now, since none of the "supposed" reasons we went bore fruit.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Bush wanted Saddam from the day he took office. Immediately after 9/11 he made it clear to the administration that whatever else was the cause, Iraq would be going down. The administration crafted support, nearly out of thin air (and truth be damned) to make it happen.

We are still there because if we ran after creating the mess we'd be solely and wholly to blame for everything that comes after. The people running the nation are honestly too stupid (or at least too arrogant) to realize what everyone else knew before it started so they'll keep at it till the end rather than be left holding the blame when the music stops.

 

[BoomerD]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1221.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20020915/ai_n12577856

 

[LeadMagnet]

We went to war - so the GOP's friends in military, supply, oil, and rebuilding contractors would make big bucks. And the GOP used or was used by the NeoCons and moral majority to effect change in the region using 911 terrorism and WMD to make there case

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
This my final guess into the mind of Bush, Oedipus Complex? His irrational drive to out do his father.

:shocked:
AND screw is mother? Yheesh...Barb's a tough one to stomach; not that I'd put it past him

 

[MrPALCO]

We invaded Iraq because of the threat of WMD use against our Nation.