Why Climate Skeptics are Wrong (Scientific American article)

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Michael Schermer has been there, done that.

Shermer was once a fundamentalist Christian, but ceased to believe in the existence of God during his graduate studies. He accepts the labels agnostic, nontheist, atheist and others. He has expressed reservations about such labels for his lack of belief in a God, however, as he sees them being used in the service of "pigeonholing", and prefers to simply be called a skeptic. He also describes himself as an advocate for humanist philosophy as well as the science of morality.

He's a "skeptic" in the true sense of the word, and he knows a "false skeptice" when he sees one. Schermer writes a monthly column for Scientific American, and the latest one is particularly good.

Here's the essence of his argument against climate "skeptics" (which in my opinion is too generous a term.

Consensus science is a phrase often heard today in conjunction with anthropogenic global warming (AGW). Is there a consensus on AGW? There is. The tens of thousands of scientists who belong to the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Chemical Society, the American Geophysical Union, the American Medical Association, the American Meteorological Society, the American Physical Society, the Geological Society of America, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences and, most notably, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change all concur that AGW is in fact real. Why?

It is not because of the sheer number of scientists. After all, science is not conducted by poll. As Albert Einstein said in response to a 1931 book skeptical of relativity theory entitled 100 Authors against Einstein, “Why 100? If I were wrong, one would have been enough.” The answer is that there is a convergence of evidence from multiple lines of inquiry—pollen, tree rings, ice cores, corals, glacial and polar ice-cap melt, sea-level rise, ecological shifts, carbon dioxide increases, the unprecedented rate of temperature increase—that all converge to a singular conclusion. AGW doubters point to the occasional anomaly in a particular data set, as if one incongruity gainsays all the other lines of evidence. But that is not how consilience science works. For AGW skeptics to overturn the consensus, they would need to find flaws with all the lines of supportive evidence and show a consistent convergence of evidence toward a different theory that explains the data. (Creationists have the same problem overturning evolutionary theory.) This they have not done.

A 2013 study published in Environmental Research Letters by Australian researchers John Cook, Dana Nuccitelli and their colleagues examined 11,944 climate paper abstracts published from 1991 to 2011. Of those papers that stated a position on AGW, about 97 percent concluded that climate change is real and caused by humans. What about the remaining 3 percent or so of studies? What if they're right? In a 2015 paper published in Theoretical and Applied Climatology, Rasmus Benestad of the Norwegian Meteorological Institute, Nuccitelli and their colleagues examined the 3 percent and found “a number of methodological flaws and a pattern of common mistakes.” That is, instead of the 3 percent of papers converging to a better explanation than that provided by the 97 percent, they failed to converge to anything.

“There is no cohesive, consistent alternative theory to human-caused global warming,” Nuccitelli concluded in an August 25, 2015, commentary in the Guardian. “Some blame global warming on the sun, others on orbital cycles of other planets, others on ocean cycles, and so on. There is a 97% expert consensus on a cohesive theory that's overwhelmingly supported by the scientific evidence, but the 2–3% of papers that reject that consensus are all over the map, even contradicting each other. The one thing they seem to have in common is methodological flaws like cherry picking, curve fitting, ignoring inconvenient data, and disregarding known physics.” For example, one skeptical paper attributed climate change to lunar or solar cycles, but to make these models work for the 4,000-year period that the authors considered, they had to throw out 6,000 years' worth of earlier data.

It's kind of like the far right and their "replacement for Obamacare." They tell us that Obamacare is "a disaster," but where's the wonderful replacement plan that would do a better job? So, climate deniers, where is your unified theory that explains away ALL of the DIFFERENT lines of inquiry that support AGW? Or do you just pretend that thousands of scientists are all conspiring to fake results, and then stop listening?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,103
9,223
136
Explain away what?

First, you face a wide range of opponents.
Myself, the underlying issue is not the principle of CO2 or that our emissions are warming the planet. The question to me is, how much? There is a dogma at play to portray hockey sticks, and that sort of open activism demands backlash and skepticism.

The latest IPCC report recognized the pause and toned down its estimates of Climate Sensitivity to more closely align with observational data. Since that report you have shifted tactics to outright deny the pause ever existed. By focusing solely on a highly corrupt Surface Station data and ignoring other data such as Satellite and NCEP.

Yet it's that data you wish to ignore which forced the IPCC to lower their forecasts. Hrmm... It was good enough for the latest IPCC but not for the activists afterwards. Perhaps because they felt their agenda being compromised and they needed to hype up the dataset they keep adjusting upwards.

The question is, how much Surface warming?
And for that we just have to point out the corruption in the Surface Station record.
 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,972
793
136
And speaking of Scientific American and in case somebody wants to beat the nuclear dead horse in this thread too:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ms-doomed-to-dwindle-in-the-u-s-infographic1/

I am baffled as to why we won't go with thorium molten salt reactors instead. They have almost none of the danger/waste issues as our current reactors. Then again, they can't be used to produce nuclear bomb materials, and maybe that was the whole point of our current reactors in the first place. But yeah, our current reactors suck and they aren't the answer.
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,147
1,329
126
Nice link. His leaving religion is an interesting irony given that the largest deniers are the bible thumping Republican shill politicians in the pocket of the fossil fuel industry and their of flock. In total denial/deceit about the climate change reality and all the evidence supporting it.

They tend to use the same couple graphs found on batshit shill websites. Also perfectly willing to believe religious fairy tales with zero supporting evidence. It's a pattern worth studying.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,110
6,610
126

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,110
6,610
126
Nice link. His leaving religion is an interesting irony given that the largest deniers are the bible thumping Republican shill politicians in the pocket of the fossil fuel industry and their of flock. In total denial/deceit about the climate change reality and all the evidence supporting it.

They tend to use the same couple graphs found on batshit shill websites. Also perfectly willing to believe religious fairy tales with zero supporting evidence. It's a pattern worth studying.

I don't know why, well I do really but never mind, conservative brain defectives get evolved in scientific debates. Almost all scientists are liberals. Science is basically liberal thinking and conservative thinking is all about rationalizing away ego damaging ideas like that humans are destroying the planet. Conservatives are fearful and too cowardly to admit their guilt because they see fasts as threatening. There is not much you can do about these demented imbeciles because they can deny anything.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
21,745
6,173
136
Another of our weekly threads explaining why the sky is falling.
I get it, the apocalypse gained a fifth horseman, his name is carbon dioxide. Rather than the never ending sales pitch, why not do a weekly series about solutions? Why not tell us about the vast changes you've made in your life to reduce your carbon footprint?
I'll bet you two dollars I've done more to reduce carbon emissions than you have, and I'm a skeptic.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
Why a fundamentalist christian who turned into an atheist in college.

Most people in science don't have an existential crisis as they study.

Fundamentalist Christians have always been crazy. The Baptists from the bible belt. Very small towns and lots of ignorance.

Picking on the weakest skeptics doesn't change the shoddy data.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,743
10,289
146
Another of our weekly threads explaining why the sky is falling.
I get it, the apocalypse gained a fifth horseman, his name is carbon dioxide. Rather than the never ending sales pitch, why not do a weekly series about solutions? Why not tell us about the vast changes you've made in your life to reduce your carbon footprint?
I'll bet you two dollars I've done more to reduce carbon emissions than you have, and I'm a skeptic.

In the face of the absolutely overwhelming and wide-ranging scientific consensus, why are you a skeptic?
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
In the face of the absolutely overwhelming and wide-ranging scientific consensus, why are you a skeptic?

I read something about how the 97% figure that people often cite is because they got 76 responses back out of 1,600 surveys sent out and it was two people that disagreed and it gets rounded up. But it was a small sample nonetheless sent out exclusively to climate scientists. Then there is always the survey bias where you only get the opinion of people who bother to respond.

Overall though, I'm not sure until I see the actual survey. I'm always dubious of stuff that gets oft repeated like that. The guys who maintain the UAH satellite dataset are apparently skeptics
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
It's amazing how invested the usual suspects are in their wanton denial of reality, truth, science, and it's profound liberal bias...
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
21,745
6,173
136
In the face of the absolutely overwhelming and wide-ranging scientific consensus, why are you a skeptic?

Because I have doubts about the data gathering methods, and how the data has been manipulated.
In reality it doesn't matter, oil isn't sustainable, we need to get off oil and coal because they are finite resources, and dirty as hell. We have to be better stewards, we have to clean up our messes and leave the planet tidy for the uncounted trillions that will come after us. It's just good manners, I need no other reason.

That said, I grow weary of the chicken little syndrome. I don't need a daily dose of dire warnings, I don't need to hear about every warm day we have, I don't need to be told that we can't continue down this path, it's obvious. The never ending proclamations of doom and misery have become a religion of despair. We don't need despair, we need answers, we need research, we need sensible alternatives to sucking our energy out of the ground. The chicken little's of the world don't supply any of that.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,110
6,610
126
"As a result, the amount of electricity produced by nuclear power plants in the U.S. continues to drop, replaced in many cases by burning natural gas, which results in more air pollution."

Which is why, of course, that we need to totally abandon new nuclear and concentrate on green alternatives. Think of the fossil fuels we'll burn waiting for nuclear for decades and the money we waste on propping up that dinosaur. It's bad enough that we have climate denial and then have nuclear denial as well.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Which is why, of course, that we need to totally abandon new nuclear and concentrate on green alternatives. Think of the fossil fuels we'll burn waiting for nuclear for decades and the money we waste on propping up that dinosaur. It's bad enough that we have climate denial and then have nuclear denial as well.

Just to be clear, you are in favor of building hundreds of new nat gas power plants, along with the infrastructure required like pipelines, across the country to replace our aging nuclear power plants which will increase our green house emissions but will decrease our radioactive waste? We will have to build even more plants to account for increases in use and hopefully to close down the absurdly dirty coal plants but then we are getting into a huge expansion of fossil fuel burning power plants and the required infrastructure.
 
Last edited:

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
Just to be clear, you are in favor of building hundreds of new nat gas power plants, along with the infrastructure required like pipelines, across the country to replace our aging nuclear power plants which will increase our green house emissions but will decrease our radioactive waste? We will have to build even more plants to account for increases in use and hopefully to close down the absurdly dirty coal plants but then we are getting into a huge expansion of fossil fuel burning power plants and the required infrastructure.

I take it you missed his giant anti-nuclear post. I also happen to agree with him anyway.
 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,972
793
136

This is a very shitty article. It is terribly written by someone who doesn't understand energy and is very biased. Are you sure THIS is the article you want to use to represent your dislike of thorium reactors?

Just read past the first few comments to the article. They articulate the crappiness of this article better than I ever could. Seriously, read the first couple pages of comments. It is worth your time.
 
Last edited:

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,110
6,610
126
I take it you missed his giant anti-nuclear post. I also happen to agree with him anyway.

Unfortunately, because every time global warming comes up, somebody is quick to say that nuclear is the answer to our problems. The result is that I have posted my arguments in two other threads here in the last few days and many times also longer ago, and foolishly trying to preempt that happening here, have myself got it going here.

I get a real bang our of the rational engineering minds that believe in nuclear power who are up against fearful, and irrational people like me who are certain that radon gas from the nearby power plant a thousand miles away collects under my bed when I sleep. Hehehe.

Some of them are climate believers and some are skeptics, neither of which can do jack shit to convince the other they are right but they think that combined they're going to change me and millions of Moms who will kick a soccer ball in their faces. They know all about equations and fuck all about people.

Nuclear is a loser because it produces invisible rays that could be anywhere and are scary. The beautiful thing about a solar panel is that you can actually touch them and don't need to bury them for a million years.

Just imagine Yucca mountain getting hit by a small asteroid and all that plutonium falling as dust all over the planet Did you know if a single speck of it lodges in your lungs you can get long cancer? If they cremate you, you can kill somebody else.

Good old America. We bombed Japan and brought Godzilla to life. There isn't a containment vessel made that can contain the imagination of fearful people. Nuclear power is doomed because it scares ordinary people and that fear is completely rational. We will have more nuclear when scientists prove to ordinary people that radiation doesn't kill.

Look what those confident people that build nuclear in Japan did to their people. Nothing can ever undo the damage that was done. It's like killing your own child thinking she was a burglar in the night. Some things, nuclear is one of them, are just not worth the risk.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
If some of the problems involving fusion are overcome would even be a huge improvement, for a few things used besides reactors. Much safer than current ones in several ways.

Fusion_microcapsule.jpg


Has been mentioned many times in the past of course.
 
Last edited:

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
21,745
6,173
136
I just wish fusion was an orgasm because I'd have been coming all my life.

I'm not sure what you mean, but fusion works. Most of us see it every single day, we just need to figure out how to make it happen on a small scale.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
I'm not sure what you mean, but fusion works. Most of us see it every single day, we just need to figure out how to make it happen on a small scale.

I know where he is coming from, you don't have to think about it too hard :)

Even worked a small pun in there, but sounds like you all ready knew that also :p
 
Last edited:

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
Just to be clear, you are in favor of building hundreds of new nat gas power plants, along with the infrastructure required like pipelines, across the country to replace our aging nuclear power plants which will increase our green house emissions but will decrease our radioactive waste? We will have to build even more plants to account for increases in use and hopefully to close down the absurdly dirty coal plants but then we are getting into a huge expansion of fossil fuel burning power plants and the required infrastructure.

Natural gas fired combined cycle power plants are being built to replace the coal fired power plants. Unless new nuclear powered plants are built you will see even more being built over the next couple of decades. Wind and/or solar will never be enough and neither are useful as peaking power sources.