Why can't you be both a Christian and a liberal? A thread for Conservative Christians to defend themselves.

[busmaster11]

Ann Coulter

The only Democrats who go to church regularly are the ones who plan to run for president someday and are preparing in advance to fake a belief in God.

I feel the traditional concept of conservatism has been so utterly butchered by those who call themselves conservatives these days its unbelievable. Conservatism has a religious history in the US, doesn't it? Isn't it about Patriotism? Christian morality? The concept that one should have the freedom to go as far as one's ambitions will take them and the variations in individual ambition is the reason why some are poor and others are rich and so be it?

If so, sign me up for being a conservative.

Just because you can align yourself with a party based on the issue of abortion doesn't mean you have to toe party lines from then on, and drift in whichever trends may follow. Since when is the concept of big government conservative? When is allowing corporations and lobbyists to take control by turning down soft money restrictions, conservative? When is identifying oneself with placing environmental issues dead last, conservative? When is rampant fiscal irresponsibility conservative?

If this is conservative, why are any of us conservatives?

In short, I'm not a liberal because I believe in abortion. Because I don't. And as transparent as it sounds, I'm liberal because I don't believe conservatism really stands for what it should... And because I wholeheartedly believe liberals are not as arrogant and stand for respecting and caring for their fellow neighbors.

As a Christian, I beg to differ with Ann Coulter. I think Jesus would too. Unlike Jesus, Coulter is an elitist hypocrite, and I'm ashamed that we seemlingly share the same faith.

 

[chess9]

I couldn't wait!

Well, the St. Francis of Assisi types have been preempted by the Cotton Mathers and spiritual descendants of Martin Luther, IMHO.

Real Christianity, again IMHO, is inconsistent with the money grubbing that goes on in America. Americans are so spoiled they want to believe that even a billionaire is walking the walk when all he's doing is talking the talk.

This is not really an appropriate topic here by the way. You should take it to OTAT.

But a great question!

Dominus vobiscum

-Robert

 

[busmaster11]

updated. shoulda waited...

 

[Zebo]

What are you talking about Chirstians should be left of Nader.

Bible is a liberals paradise

 

[alchemize]

Was there a different article you linked to? Because she's going insane over some other topic in this one...

 

[MovingTarget]

I think its just a common misconception that you cant be both. I know many religious liberals (maybe because I am a Southerner?). The christian church as a whole (Catholic church in particular) does have a rather deep root in social/economic justice and Natural Law theory (as defined by St. Thomas Aquinas or whoever). These are for the most part liberal idealogies. It seems to me that the democratic party has gotten away from that image of being religious because of its national leadership's views and a few issues like abortion. But to say that you can't be a liberal and religious at the same time is a pretty big stretch, if not contradictory in some cases.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Because liberalism is contrary to morality. No Christian (or non-Christian for that matter) wants to live in a country where morality is law, but most Christians (and many non-Christians) would like to see morality encouraged and immortality discouraged through passive means. A display of the Ten Commandments is a great example as it is not forcing religeon on anybody but it is reminding them of the Ten Commandments and the Bible and the morality held within. Of course, the anti-religeous freaks completely blow it out of proportion and assign an active propety to something passive.

But, mostly, the abortion issue is a make or break deal buster. You can't believe the Bible is Truth and also believe that unborn babies don't have souls.

 

[alchemize]

You can be a liberal and a Christian, you'd just have to be a hypocrite

While I agree with this mostly in principle, in reality it doesn't work very well. Example:

I believe abortion is morally wrong (conservative viewpoint), however I don't believe I need to make the decision for others (i.e. make it against the law) (liberal viewpoint), except in certain cases (i.e. minors get parental consent, conservative viewpoint).

I still want to see the article!

 

[xochi]

Displaying the Ten Commandments in your home isn?t the same as displaying them in a court of law where all citizens regardless of religion are judged equally.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: xochi
Displaying the Ten Commandments in your home isn?t the same as displaying them in a court of law where all citizens regardless of religion are judged equally.

It does NOT affect the law by which you are judged a single bit. It's a sublte passive reminder to be good.

 

[chess9]

Busmaster:

PLEAZEEEEEE!!!! Don't do it!!! Don't fix the link!!!!

Don't make me read anything written by that woman.

Good grief, just seeing her occasionally on t.v. renders me apoplectic.

-Robert

 

[xochi]

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can be a liberal and a Christian, you'd just have to be a hypocrite

While I agree with this mostly in principle, in reality it doesn't work very well. Example:

I believe abortion is morally wrong (conservative viewpoint), however I don't believe I need to make the decision for others (i.e. make it against the law) (liberal viewpoint), except in certain cases (i.e. minors get parental consent, conservative viewpoint).

I still want to see the article!

I read somewhere that the majority of Catholics, about 60%, vote democrat. I for one am Catholic, Liberal and proud of it.

When you look at what the Catholic Church recent stances you find out that it is against the Iraq War, against the Death Penalty, against Abortion, and Pro-Immigration.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: xochi

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can be a liberal and a Christian, you'd just have to be a hypocrite

While I agree with this mostly in principle, in reality it doesn't work very well. Example:

I believe abortion is morally wrong (conservative viewpoint), however I don't believe I need to make the decision for others (i.e. make it against the law) (liberal viewpoint), except in certain cases (i.e. minors get parental consent, conservative viewpoint).

I still want to see the article!

I read somewhere that the majority of Catholics, about 60%, vote democrat. I for one am Catholic, Liberal and proud of it.

When you look at what the Catholic Church recent stances you find out that it is against the Iraq War, against the Death Penalty, against Abortion, and Pro-Immigration.

Note we said Christian, not Catholic (another thread altogether there...)

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: xochi

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can be a liberal and a Christian, you'd just have to be a hypocrite

While I agree with this mostly in principle, in reality it doesn't work very well. Example:

I believe abortion is morally wrong (conservative viewpoint), however I don't believe I need to make the decision for others (i.e. make it against the law) (liberal viewpoint), except in certain cases (i.e. minors get parental consent, conservative viewpoint).

I still want to see the article!

I read somewhere that the majority of Catholics, about 60%, vote democrat. I for one am Catholic, Liberal and proud of it.

When you look at what the Catholic Church recent stances you find out that it is against the Iraq War, against the Death Penalty, against Abortion, and Pro-Immigration.

Why is a church taking stances?

 

[sandorski]

You can be, but I think you hit the nail on the head. That is, the Republicans(aka Conservatives) make a stand on a Moral issue, certain segments of Christians see that stand and support it. Once that is established, they seem to accept everything else on Faith that it is also correct, that the rest of the Policies must be "Christian", because the one(or few) Policies appear Christian. On the flipside, they look at the Democrats(aka Liberals) and don't see any Moral policies that they agree with, then decide that they(Democrats) are not Christian.

Part of this stems from a Fundamentalist viewpoint, some doesn't:

1) Non-Fundamentalists hold the Moral issue as most important. The Economic, Social, or other policies are not important, only the Moral policy.

2) Fundamentalists also feel the same way as the Non-Fundamentalists, but they have a twist. Dubyah said it best, "You're either with us or against us!" that point is very much a Fundamentalist sentiment. The Fundamentalist believes strongly in exclusivity, that is their group is Right all others are wrong, in fact all others are considered "Satanic" controlled by the Devil. Even fellow Christians who believe more or less the same, but Practice differently or don't conform politically(support Dems/Libs) are looked down upon. All that said, there are many who call themselves "Fundamentalists" that are not as kooky as those I just described.

The main reason, IMO, that "Christains" are rarely "Liberal" has to do with peer pressure. Organizations like the Moral Majority, PTL, and others have successfully steered "Christians" towards the Republican Party. Most Fundamentalist Churches have no hierarchy(visible at least) beyond the Local level, so these well known TV personalities often fill the void for a Pope like central authority, it gives them comfort and a feeling of being part of a larger thing.

Many/Most Fundamentalists also believe that God directs their Life. Not in a "Fate" kinda way, but directly "speaking" to one's soul, that Thoughts and Ideas are constantly flowing to them. As such, when a fellow Christian suggests the Dems/Libs as a viable alternative , those around them often react somewhat shocked, it is just assumed that the Collective thinks alike, that everyone receives their Ideas/Direction from a Consistent God, for why would God want Susie to vote one way, but Bobbie another?

This lends also to surrendering ones Individuality for the approval of the Collective. New converts to Fundamentalism are encouraged to not think for themselves, they are told that everything up to their point of Salvation is a lie and the result of Satanic control. So the convert empties their mind and seeks out the proper Morals/Values/Thoughts/etc from the Bible and Fellow Christians. IMO, if they stick to the Bible as their guide, they will turn out ok, but if they seek out and mimic their fellow Christians, they're fvckt. Unfortunetly, the lure of being part of something bigger develops a Group Mentality that disallows Individual thought or Opinion. A Christian singer, Steve Taylor, wrote the appropriately titled song, "I Want to be a Clone"it deals with this issue and also shows that even amongst Fundamentalists their are some who maintain their Individuality.

Didn't mean to go off on a Fundamentalist Bash, but IMO that is the main group who can't be "Liberal" in a generalized sense.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

The term "Fundamentalist" is thrown around way to liberally (no pun intended).

 

[Orsorum]

I wouldn't take Ann Coulter very seriously.

Cheers!
Nate

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: xochi

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can be a liberal and a Christian, you'd just have to be a hypocrite

While I agree with this mostly in principle, in reality it doesn't work very well. Example:

I believe abortion is morally wrong (conservative viewpoint), however I don't believe I need to make the decision for others (i.e. make it against the law) (liberal viewpoint), except in certain cases (i.e. minors get parental consent, conservative viewpoint).

I still want to see the article!

I read somewhere that the majority of Catholics, about 60%, vote democrat. I for one am Catholic, Liberal and proud of it.

When you look at what the Catholic Church recent stances you find out that it is against the Iraq War, against the Death Penalty, against Abortion, and Pro-Immigration.

Note we said Christian, not Catholic (another thread altogether there...)

Catholic's are Christians.

 

[MystikMango]

Let's not forget the original US Constitution had stated "freedom from religion". It wasn't till after Macarthyism that government changed the Constitution in the 40's to make it say "freedom of religion."

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Zebo
What are you talking about Chirstians should be left of Nader.

Bible is a liberals paradise

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Christian conservatives really need to come to grips with what the Bible says:

On defense: Jesus said "Love your enemies" and "Blessed are the peacemakers." "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:44; 5:9; 5:39.)

On social programs: "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." (Matthew 19:21.)

On rugged individualism and the pursuit of self-interest: "Love your neighbor as yourself." "So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you." (Matthew 22:39; 7:12.)

On financial success: "Truly, I say unto you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." "You cannot serve both God and Money." (Matthew 19:23; 6:24.)

On the philosophy that "greed is good": "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." (Luke 12:15.)

On paying taxes: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." (Matthew 22:22.)

On crime and punishment: "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (John 8:7; Matthew 7:1,2.)

On climbing the social ladder: "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'" (Matthew 11:19.)

On the perks and privileges of power: "After that, [Jesus] poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him." (John 13:5.)

On family: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters - yes, even his own life - he cannot be my disciple." Also: "'Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?' Pointing to his disciples, he said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers.'" (Luke 14:26; Matthew 12:48,49.)

On race relations: In the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus praised the morality of a hated foreigner over his own countrymen. (Luke 10:30-37.)

On the superiority of one's native country: "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: 'Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.'" (Matthew 10:5,6.)

On letting others pull themselves up by their own bootstraps: "But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous." (Luke 14:13,14.)

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: xochi

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can be a liberal and a Christian, you'd just have to be a hypocrite

While I agree with this mostly in principle, in reality it doesn't work very well. Example:

I believe abortion is morally wrong (conservative viewpoint), however I don't believe I need to make the decision for others (i.e. make it against the law) (liberal viewpoint), except in certain cases (i.e. minors get parental consent, conservative viewpoint).

I still want to see the article!

I read somewhere that the majority of Catholics, about 60%, vote democrat. I for one am Catholic, Liberal and proud of it.

When you look at what the Catholic Church recent stances you find out that it is against the Iraq War, against the Death Penalty, against Abortion, and Pro-Immigration.

Why is a church taking stances?

Religions (especially those organized into churches) are supposed to take stands on MORAL issues. Those listed above (with the possible exception of immigration) are considered such issues among many others. Morality is important to any religion.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: sandorski
You can be, but I think you hit the nail on the head. That is, the Republicans(aka Conservatives) make a stand on a Moral issue, certain segments of Christians see that stand and support it. Once that is established, they seem to accept everything else on Faith that it is also correct, that the rest of the Policies must be "Christian", because the one(or few) Policies appear Christian. On the flipside, they look at the Democrats(aka Liberals) and don't see any Moral policies that they agree with, then decide that they(Democrats) are not Christian.

Part of this stems from a Fundamentalist viewpoint, some doesn't:

1) Non-Fundamentalists hold the Moral issue as most important. The Economic, Social, or other policies are not important, only the Moral policy.

2) Fundamentalists also feel the same way as the Non-Fundamentalists, but they have a twist. Dubyah said it best, "You're either with us or against us!" that point is very much a Fundamentalist sentiment. The Fundamentalist believes strongly in exclusivity, that is their group is Right all others are wrong, in fact all others are considered "Satanic" controlled by the Devil. Even fellow Christians who believe more or less the same, but Practice differently or don't conform politically(support Dems/Libs) are looked down upon. All that said, there are many who call themselves "Fundamentalists" that are not as kooky as those I just described.

The main reason, IMO, that "Christains" are rarely "Liberal" has to do with peer pressure. Organizations like the Moral Majority, PTL, and others have successfully steered "Christians" towards the Republican Party. Most Fundamentalist Churches have no hierarchy(visible at least) beyond the Local level, so these well known TV personalities often fill the void for a Pope like central authority, it gives them comfort and a feeling of being part of a larger thing.

Many/Most Fundamentalists also believe that God directs their Life. Not in a "Fate" kinda way, but directly "speaking" to one's soul, that Thoughts and Ideas are constantly flowing to them. As such, when a fellow Christian suggests the Dems/Libs as a viable alternative , those around them often react somewhat shocked, it is just assumed that the Collective thinks alike, that everyone receives their Ideas/Direction from a Consistent God, for why would God want Susie to vote one way, but Bobbie another?

This lends also to surrendering ones Individuality for the approval of the Collective. New converts to Fundamentalism are encouraged to not think for themselves, they are told that everything up to their point of Salvation is a lie and the result of Satanic control. So the convert empties their mind and seeks out the proper Morals/Values/Thoughts/etc from the Bible and Fellow Christians. IMO, if they stick to the Bible as their guide, they will turn out ok, but if they seek out and mimic their fellow Christians, they're fvckt. Unfortunetly, the lure of being part of something bigger develops a Group Mentality that disallows Individual thought or Opinion. A Christian singer, Steve Taylor, wrote the appropriately titled song, "I Want to be a Clone"it deals with this issue and also shows that even amongst Fundamentalists their are some who maintain their Individuality.

Didn't mean to go off on a Fundamentalist Bash, but IMO that is the main group who can't be "Liberal" in a generalized sense.

You have some fairly deep insight... Might I ask if you are a Christian? Might I also ask if the logical conclusion one can draw from this, is that Christian conservatives push an agenda which largely does not serve to glorify God? How do you suppose even the televangelists (especially?) and other prominent church leaders continue to justify these agendas?

 

[glenn1]

On paying taxes: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." (Matthew 22:22.)

You're missing the point of that passage. It's not meant to express a political POV, indeed it does just the opposite. It's essentially the philosophical underpinnings of the idea now thought of as "wall of seperation between church and state." In that expression, Jesus is reminding his audience that religion is about developing a personal relationship with God and that the worldly realm (such as politics) is simply a distraction on that journey.

 

[Tom]

"and immortality discouraged "

Liberals do not discourage immortality.

 

[Czar]

since we are on this subject, why to conservatives support the death penalty?