Why ATI Wins... [IMO]

[TaylorTech]

This is just my little rant, I've tried to back up what I've said as much as I can. If you would like to criticize, please do.

To start off, in my opinion AMD should just stick with server processors and graphics cards. They are suffering to Intel, and have been quite some time in the Desktop/Laptop market, which is the overall majority of users. And no I'm not an Intel fanboy, I used AMD processors for a long time, they have just about been cut out of their own game.

It would cut down on losses, production, etc. They also need to work on better marketing for their cards, word of mouth is doing great but it could be so much more.

Once they get a few key concepts down, they could own Nvidia so much more than they are right now, effectively just dominating the GPU market.

I'm not saying this will happen, but if they could come up with some kind of presentation that shows why big-name companies like Dell/Alienware, HP, Compaq should embrace AMD/ATI even more [cough HD4850/70 success, RV700], well there's the answer right there.

Poor Nvidia. They were on the top for so long. ATI/AMD effectively failed with 2900XT, and started learning from their mistakes with the HD 3xxx series, which did quite well, but still was a long shot from the 8xxx/9xxx series from Nvidia. Now with failing mobile GPU's, the new GTX series having "high failure rates" and the 4xxx series just blowing competition out of the water with the price/performance ratio, it looks like hard, hard times for Nvidia.

To start out, courtesy of AmberClad:

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2213501&enterthread=y

EVERYBODY JUMP SHIP! At least that's what EVGA is thinking. Nvidia's stock will drop significantly in my opinion, if it hasn't already. Oh wait!

http://finance.yahoo.com/echar...le=on;source=undefined

Pick a day, watch it fall.

Now EVGA is wanting to partner up with AMD. Shame, EVGA is such a great company, one of the few I trusted. I wish them the best of luck.

I stated earlier the high failure rates of the mobile GPU's, here you go:

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=12553

What are you DOING Nvidia? Pay attention! Don't blame Dell for the bad construction/overheating of the cards. There goes more losses, $150-200M gone.

I haven't been able to find a stone article on how the GTX260/280 cards are doing, but all over Newegg you can see "DOA" "Way too hot" "Died after a week"

Now, before you start flaming, I'm not an ATI fanboy. I am actually running a computer with an 8800GT in it. This is mostly in my opinion. I love Nvidia for their 8x/9x series, they are great. But I think the GTX series was released in haste to get a jump on ATI/AMD before the 4x series came out, and it failed, MISERABLY.

While Nvidia was owning with the 8x/9x series and ATI was sitting stagnant, ATI was secretly working on some of the best GPU's to be released since the 6600GT [remember the frame rates you could get on CS:S?]. Then they surprised Nvidia, and pretty much every consumer. Nvidia has had a bad habit of releasing a series then working out the kinks as they go along. They love watching that dough roll in, but who doesn't?

I guess we'll find out how long this shift of power can last.

Thoughts?

 

[AmberClad]

When I posted that article, I didn't see it in a "the-sky-is-falling", Nvidia is doomed sort of way. Sure, it might be a sign of the times and how well AMD's current generation is doing, but one setback does not equate to a monumental power shift. AMD has to be consistent on delivering each time -- most people have short memories and will switch vendors without a second thought.

 

[TaylorTech]

That's a very good point. But it seems with such a solid series release, they seem to finally have down an almost flawless equation. How many people can honestly say they expected such a sharp increase of sales with ATI and decrease with Nvidia.

And sure it might not be monumental, but ATI seems to slowly be rising up on the hill and Nvidia slowly down it. Which is a shame, cause it used to be tough to decide "ATI or Nvidia?" But as of current, it's a pretty easy choice :S

 

[Genx87]

I get the feeling people are really hoping for an Nvidia failure and trying to bring up nostalgic images of the 9800 vs 5800\5900 days. The NV3.x was a disaster and nothing like this. The current situation is AMD has a competitive card at a lower price point. Nvidia still holds the single card performance crown until the 4870x2 shows up. Nvidia added a lot of stuff to the GT200 series that may not help them in the short term on the gaming side.

Any issues they are having now can and will be addressed very soon with the die shrinks. In the mean time I am sure Nvidia will continue to make money while AMD bleeds like a stuffed pig. By now the investment in ATI has to be nearing a 0 dollar valuation mark in terms of market cap. That is really bad and I wouldnt be surprised if AMD is in bankruptcy protection by the end of the year.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: AmberClad
When I posted that article, I didn't see it in a "the-sky-is-falling", Nvidia is doomed sort of way. Sure, it might be a sign of the times and how well AMD's current generation is doing, but one setback does not equate to a monumental power shift. AMD has to be consistent on delivering each time -- most people have short memories and will switch vendors without a second thought.

No doubt. I've been through an ATI 1900XTX, 8800GTX, 8800GT (because I could still get $400 for the GTX at the time I sold it), 3870s in Crossfire (thank you Best Buy sale), and 4850s in Crossfire (thank you Best Buy 25% off Visiontek products and an understanding cool-as-hell manager).

If nVidia comes out with something faster than Crossfired 4850s, for $300 or less, and with near silent cooling; I'd jump from ATI's ship in a heartbeat. It's all about price, performance, and thermals (in that order) for me.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I get the feeling people are really hoping for an Nvidia failure and trying to bring up nostalgic images of the 9800 vs 5800\5900 days. The NV3.x was a disaster and nothing like this. The current situation is AMD has a competitive card at a lower price point. Nvidia still holds the single card performance crown until the 4870x2 shows up. Nvidia added a lot of stuff to the GT200 series that may not help them in the short term on the gaming side.

Any issues they are having now can and will be addressed very soon with the die shrinks. In the mean time I am sure Nvidia will continue to make money while AMD bleeds like a stuffed pig. By now the investment in ATI has to be nearing a 0 dollar valuation mark in terms of market cap. That is really bad and I wouldnt be surprised if AMD is in bankruptcy protection by the end of the year.

Well, AMD did finally wake up and got rid of the (former) CEO.

 

[TaylorTech]

Originally posted by: Golgatha

Originally posted by: AmberClad
When I posted that article, I didn't see it in a "the-sky-is-falling", Nvidia is doomed sort of way. Sure, it might be a sign of the times and how well AMD's current generation is doing, but one setback does not equate to a monumental power shift. AMD has to be consistent on delivering each time -- most people have short memories and will switch vendors without a second thought.

No doubt. I've been through an ATI 1900XTX, 8800GTX, 8800GT (because I could still get $400 for the GTX at the time I sold it), 3870s in Crossfire (thank you Best Buy sale), and 4850s in Crossfire (thank you Best Buy 25% off Visiontek products and an understanding cool-as-hell manager).

If nVidia comes out with something faster than Crossfired 4850s, for $300 or less, and with near silent cooling; I'd jump from ATI's ship in a heartbeat. It's all about price, performance, and thermals (in that order) for me.

No doubt Golgatha. I mean I'd switch to whoever was offering the best card at the time. I mean hell I've been with Nvidia since the GeForce MX2. But the results of ATI currently just give a ray of hope of competitive markets again, rather than just one side owning all.

 

[Shortass]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I get the feeling people are really hoping for an Nvidia failure and trying to bring up nostalgic images of the 9800 vs 5800\5900 days. The NV3.x was a disaster and nothing like this. The current situation is AMD has a competitive card at a lower price point. Nvidia still holds the single card performance crown until the 4870x2 shows up. Nvidia added a lot of stuff to the GT200 series that may not help them in the short term on the gaming side.

Any issues they are having now can and will be addressed very soon with the die shrinks. In the mean time I am sure Nvidia will continue to make money while AMD bleeds like a stuffed pig. By now the investment in ATI has to be nearing a 0 dollar valuation mark in terms of market cap. That is really bad and I wouldnt be surprised if AMD is in bankruptcy protection by the end of the year.

Back to apocalyptic doomy warnings for AMD?

I would have believed (I did, I think) AMD was done for a year or two ago, but they've proven that even with their low amount of cash they can still produce exceptional products with decent margins. ATI is doing fine, clearly, and if they can retain their new midrange niche they'll be fine for the time being.

In the processor department they clearly need help, but with the whole new southbridge revision that's significantly boosting OC clock speeds it seems plausible that the new chips will be competitive with the current Intel lineup. Nehalem will return the field to how it is now, but they will still make sales on those still with their compatible motherboards. They'll be fine until at least the end of the next generation - by then we'll be able to really see where things stand. I have pretty high hopes.

 

[child of wonder]

And in 12 months people will be speculating AMD closing their doors and how Nvidia is completely dominating them. Then, 12 months later, the opposite will be true. Repeat ad nauseum.

 

[Denithor]

The OP sounds like a disgruntled nVidia stockholder.

 

[ShadowOfMyself]

Originally posted by: Shortass

Originally posted by: Genx87
I get the feeling people are really hoping for an Nvidia failure and trying to bring up nostalgic images of the 9800 vs 5800\5900 days. The NV3.x was a disaster and nothing like this. The current situation is AMD has a competitive card at a lower price point. Nvidia still holds the single card performance crown until the 4870x2 shows up. Nvidia added a lot of stuff to the GT200 series that may not help them in the short term on the gaming side.

Any issues they are having now can and will be addressed very soon with the die shrinks. In the mean time I am sure Nvidia will continue to make money while AMD bleeds like a stuffed pig. By now the investment in ATI has to be nearing a 0 dollar valuation mark in terms of market cap. That is really bad and I wouldnt be surprised if AMD is in bankruptcy protection by the end of the year.

Back to apocalyptic doomy warnings for AMD?

I would have believed (I did, I think) AMD was done for a year or two ago, but they've proven that even with their low amount of cash they can still produce exceptional products with decent margins. ATI is doing fine, clearly, and if they can retain their new midrange niche they'll be fine for the time being.

In the processor department they clearly need help, but with the whole new southbridge revision that's significantly boosting OC clock speeds it seems plausible that the new chips will be competitive with the current Intel lineup. Nehalem will return the field to how it is now, but they will still make sales on those still with their compatible motherboards. They'll be fine until at least the end of the next generation - by then we'll be able to really see where things stand. I have pretty high hopes.

People have been saying that since AMD bought ATi, well its been 2 years and theyre still here... Plus these things are usually alot more unexpected

Take 3DFX, they completely owned the video card market back in the day releasing stellar products, and suddenly they make a flop called Voodoo 5 and theyre gone off the map

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: ShadowOfMyself

Originally posted by: Shortass

Originally posted by: Genx87
I get the feeling people are really hoping for an Nvidia failure and trying to bring up nostalgic images of the 9800 vs 5800\5900 days. The NV3.x was a disaster and nothing like this. The current situation is AMD has a competitive card at a lower price point. Nvidia still holds the single card performance crown until the 4870x2 shows up. Nvidia added a lot of stuff to the GT200 series that may not help them in the short term on the gaming side.

Any issues they are having now can and will be addressed very soon with the die shrinks. In the mean time I am sure Nvidia will continue to make money while AMD bleeds like a stuffed pig. By now the investment in ATI has to be nearing a 0 dollar valuation mark in terms of market cap. That is really bad and I wouldnt be surprised if AMD is in bankruptcy protection by the end of the year.

Back to apocalyptic doomy warnings for AMD?

I would have believed (I did, I think) AMD was done for a year or two ago, but they've proven that even with their low amount of cash they can still produce exceptional products with decent margins. ATI is doing fine, clearly, and if they can retain their new midrange niche they'll be fine for the time being.

In the processor department they clearly need help, but with the whole new southbridge revision that's significantly boosting OC clock speeds it seems plausible that the new chips will be competitive with the current Intel lineup. Nehalem will return the field to how it is now, but they will still make sales on those still with their compatible motherboards. They'll be fine until at least the end of the next generation - by then we'll be able to really see where things stand. I have pretty high hopes.

People have been saying that since AMD bought ATi, well its been 2 years and theyre still here... Plus these things are usually alot more unexpected

Take 3DFX, they completely owned the video card market back in the day releasing stellar products, and suddenly they make a flop called Voodoo 5 and theyre gone off the map

Heh people like me questioned the acquisition knowing what was coming from AMD and what ATI's track record has been like. Since the aquisition AMDs market cap has gone from 9 billion to 3 billion. With what, 1.5+ billion in cash losses? AMD has been a train wreck since the day they announced their intention to purchase ATI.

 

[Stageman]

"To start off, in my opinion AMD should just stick with server processors and graphics cards."

Competition benefits us the consumer. So, suffice it to say, I most certainly disagree with the OP and am quite happy that AMD is sticking with it.

 

[PingSpike]

ATI has working fixed aspect ratio scaling, so thats why they win for me.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: TaylorTech
But as of current, it's a pretty easy choice :S

Really? Maybe at initial launch of the 200 when they were overpriced, but I think more 260's have been sold in the last 2 weeks than the whole previous period.

People who want better cooling/partners are going with the 9800GTX+ over the 4850.

The 9800GX2 can now be had for the same price as the 4870. ($284 last time I looked).

The GTX280 is still the most powerful GPU, and for $449 that is better than what the 8800Ultra was. (A few overheating cards dont make it go away)

GTX260 Generally loses to the 4870, but its not that far off, especially with a nice OC.



I dont think its as clear as you make it sound.

 

[reever]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I get the feeling people are really hoping for an Nvidia failure and trying to bring up nostalgic images of the 9800 vs 5800\5900 days. The NV3.x was a disaster and nothing like this.

Wait, weren't you one of the people that was vehemently trying to argue that the NV3x was *not* a disaster and was a good card, along with the other members like rollo?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: reever

Originally posted by: Genx87
I get the feeling people are really hoping for an Nvidia failure and trying to bring up nostalgic images of the 9800 vs 5800\5900 days. The NV3.x was a disaster and nothing like this.

Wait, weren't you one of the people that was vehemently trying to argue that the NV3x was *not* a disaster and was a good card, along with the other members like rollo?

I dont feel the performance of the card was as bad as people made it out to be. But from a public perception and financial standpoint that card was a disaster.

 

[Piuc2020]

I don't think the GTX cards are a failure in price-to-performance ratio maybe at first, I mean, the GTX 260 is more or less the same as the HD 4870 in performance (with less power consumption and temps) and it costs slightly less ($10-$20 plus beefier rebates), the GTX 280 is more expensive but it's also the best so no biggie. Then they have their 9800GTX+ which is behind the 4850 but still provides decent competition.

I used to think the GTX cards were horrible but after the price drops they are a very good series, I'm still torn between a 4870 and GTX 260, NV also has PhysX functioning right now, Intel and AMD are doing nothing about Havok, in the worst case scenario, Havok wins the physx wars and Intel gives NV cards support for it. On the other hand it will be very UGLY business when PhysX becomes the dominant physics API and AMD cards can't accelerate it with hardware. Not to mention a GT200 refresh is coming.

ATI is doing particularly great but NV is not doing bad, if only this incentives even fiercer competition and even better prices and cards for us.

 

[Gikaseixas]

it's a balanced thing right now, 4870 are amazing cards but GTX200 is not doing that bad.

One thing is true, people have to thank AMD for bringing those cards to the market, Nvidia was clearly over charging people, so cudos to AMD/ATI.

 

[WaTaGuMp]

Originally posted by: TaylorTech

Thoughts?

Simple the graphics game is like a drive to work then a drive home, back and forth back and forth, nothing new here lets move along.

 

[shangshang]

Here's my thoughts:

1. you seem to like to see NV fail. But you forget that before NV, there were Voodoo, then ATI. These two dominated the graphics landscape before NV came along. So I'm not sure why you don't have any appreciation for NV. Because without NV, Voodoo and ATI will still be gouging like they do 6-10 years ago.

2. you said NV stock is falling. True. But have you taken a look at the stock of AMD?? Has AMD been rising or falling?? And is AMD is at 16-year low?!! NV is sitting on $1.62 billion cash, $0 debt. AMD sits on $1.57 cash with a $5.62 billion debt. BTW, I find it "amusing" that you used Yahoo Finance to show the falling prices of NVDA, yet you didn't use Yahoo Finance to look up the companies' balancesheets. You are cherry picking your data. But since you're cherry picking, I've cherry picked something myself

http://finance.yahoo.com/echar...le=on;source=undefined

look at that AMD chart and tell me how is that a rising company?

 

[will889]

These thing come and go in cycles. Nothing new. NV isn't going anywhere, nor will AMD.


Move on ...

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I get the feeling people are really hoping for an Nvidia failure and trying to bring up nostalgic images of the 9800 vs 5800\5900 days. The NV3.x was a disaster and nothing like this. The current situation is AMD has a competitive card at a lower price point. Nvidia still holds the single card performance crown until the 4870x2 shows up. Nvidia added a lot of stuff to the GT200 series that may not help them in the short term on the gaming side.

Any issues they are having now can and will be addressed very soon with the die shrinks. In the mean time I am sure Nvidia will continue to make money while AMD bleeds like a stuffed pig. By now the investment in ATI has to be nearing a 0 dollar valuation mark in terms of market cap. That is really bad and I wouldnt be surprised if AMD is in bankruptcy protection by the end of the year.

To be honest I cannot see how Nvidia is making a lot of money when some people are getting GTX260's for $200-225 or so.

 

[will889]

^NV's pretty shrewd, they have raised the price of other products again slightly - EG the 8800GT's are back up in price a bit at 'certain' online vendors. Mainly the popular enthusiast vendor/s.

 

[Tempered81]

Originally posted by: Piuc2020
I'm still torn between a 4870 and GTX 260

If you're spending ~$280 and have an intel x-fire board, I'd grab two 4850's.