Discussion Why aren't people from Norway immigrating to the US in mass numbers like Trump wants?

[Greenman]

I had no idea Norway was such a tiny country until this thread made me curious. Five million people makes it considerably smaller than the bay area.

 

[tweaker2]

Re the OP's title: Why go somewhere that's less appealing than where you're from?

For sure, there are a myriad of reasons that would compel a Norwegian to leave their homeland and tolerate the loss by living here in the USA, but I seem to think those reasons have nothing to do with leaving Norway because the quality of life is better here than there.

With a much smaller less diverse population base to work with, tailoring the quality of life to their nation's desires is not so much an easier task, but one of practicality.

That's simply the way things are. Good for the Norwegians that they exist in a set of circumstances of which they can take good advantage of in the way of creating a comfortable niche for themselves in their corner of the world.

 

[Jhhnn]

Re the OP's title: Why go somewhere that's less appealing than where you're from?

For sure, there are a myriad of reasons that would compel a Norwegian to leave their homeland and tolerate the loss by living here in the USA, but I seem to think those reasons have nothing to do with leaving Norway because the quality of life is better here than there.

With a much smaller less diverse population base to work with, tailoring the quality of life to their nation's desires is not so much an easier task, but one of practicality.

That's simply the way things are. Good for the Norwegians that they exist in a set of circumstances of which they can take good advantage of in the way of creating a comfortable niche for themselves in their corner of the world.

Too many brown people in America to suit their tastes.

 

[Indus]

Too many brown people in America to suit their tastes.

Uh wait, aren't there too many brown people in Europe to suit their tastes now too?

 

[glenn1]

Maybe because Norwegians dislike immigrants and have long been the least welcoming European country to refugees? If your government is fine with admitting in a year only as many asylum seekers as the U.S. sends back to Mexico every week or two under it's "Remain in Mexico" policy then as a Norwegian you're probably not going to go looking to emigrate either.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/11/norway-is-hard-on-migrants-but-tough-love-works/

https://www.dw.com/en/world-in-progress-harsh-but-fair-norways-restrictive-refugee-policy/av-44314302

https://www.newsinenglish.no/2018/06/18/refugees-struggle-to-afford-food/

 

[Jhhnn]

Uh wait, aren't there too many brown people in Europe to suit their tastes now too?

Well, they could go to Croatia-

https://balkaninsight.com/2017/08/28/want-a-pure-white-country-try-croatia-08-27-2017/

 

[obidamnkenobi]

Re the OP's title: Why go somewhere that's less appealing than where you're from?

For sure, there are a myriad of reasons that would compel a Norwegian to leave their homeland and tolerate the loss by living here in the USA, but I seem to think those reasons have nothing to do with leaving Norway because the quality of life is better here than there.

With a much smaller less diverse population base to work with, tailoring the quality of life to their nation's desires is not so much an easier task, but one of practicality.

That's simply the way things are. Good for the Norwegians that they exist in a set of circumstances of which they can take good advantage of in the way of creating a comfortable niche for themselves in their corner of the world.

Don't want to get into a very complex debate, that would include many generalizations, but this is kinda true. Norwegian life (and quality of life) is mostly pretty good for a very specific set of criteria that the majority of norwegians value. It wasn't really the reason I left, but going back now I notice this more and more now. It's very inflexible and can be stifling to people who don't fall into the stereotypical "norwegian lifestyle". And people are somewhat hostile to those who do (thou shall conform to society, jante law etc...), and thus they have issues with foreign culture immigrants comings in, racist debates about what is a true/"ethnic" norwegian, fears of immigrants changing society (similar to "taco trucks everywhere" I guess?) etc. Obivously through immigration and globalisation this is changing, and many norwegians are having a hard time with it, and they have silly debates about minute issues.

 

[thilanliyan]

Well, they could go to Croatia-

https://balkaninsight.com/2017/08/28/want-a-pure-white-country-try-croatia-08-27-2017/

Loved this quote from that article:
"There is always a new enemy behind the corner. And the reason for all of that is the second flaw. Every “ethnic utopia” is led by corrupt men who use “racial rhetorics” for populistic purposes. Their ultimate goal is just greed. "

Sound familiar?

 

[Jhhnn]

Don't want to get into a very complex debate, that would include many generalizations, but this is kinda true. Norwegian life (and quality of life) is mostly pretty good for a very specific set of criteria that the majority of norwegians value. It wasn't really the reason I left, but going back now I notice this more and more now. It's very inflexible and can be stifling to people who don't fall into the stereotypical "norwegian lifestyle". And people are somewhat hostile to those who do (thou shall conform to society, jante law etc...), and thus they have issues with foreign culture immigrants comings in, racist debates about what is a true/"ethnic" norwegian, fears of immigrants changing society (similar to "taco trucks everywhere" I guess?) etc. Obivously through immigration and globalisation this is changing, and many norwegians are having a hard time with it, and they have silly debates about minute issues.

I can appreciate how northern Europeans can have their problems with diversity because it's a new thing to them. America should have gotten over it long ago.

 

[quikah]

Calling China and Vietnam "capitalist" is really a stretch...

Have you ever been there? in the last 10 years? Every corner has someone trying to sell you something, people in trucks on the side of the road selling fruit, every building has small shops/restaurants on the first floor, 5+ floor malls full of shops. In many ways it is more capitalist than the US.

 

[Atreus21]

 

[glenn1]

I can appreciate how northern Europeans can have their problems with diversity because it's a new thing to them. America should have gotten over it long ago.

Or perhaps the real answer is that people just don't "get over it" in time like you wish it would, and increasing diversity is actually a direct threat to more progressive values and general willingness to support a social welfare state?

 

[Jhhnn]

Or perhaps the real answer is that people just don't "get over it" in time like you wish it would, and increasing diversity is actually a direct threat to more progressive values and general willingness to support a social welfare state?

Or maybe what LBJ said long ago is still true-

If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.

The white middle class has been emptying their pockets for the financial elite for nearly 40 years.

 

[nOOky]

Norway has one of the highest standards of living in the world, the question isn't why don't they want to move here, but how can we become more like them.

 

[glenn1]

Norway has one of the highest standards of living in the world, the question isn't why don't they want to move here, but how can we become more like them.

Sure, we just discover (and actually extract) enough oil to make us rich as them, what with the oil and gas sector constituting around 22% of Norwegian GDP in a nation of 5.2 million people. Which in quantified terms means we just need to find a source that represents 20 times our current extraction levels, and we can have Norway level standards of living. That's easy peasy, right?

 

[nOOky]

That's a good reason, but the U.S. has enough wealth to go around, we just choose not to take care of our people, but rather give it up as corporate welfare. There are many other factors that contribute to the high standard of living, including health care, fair taxation laws, and re-investing back into infrastructure etc. The U.S currently sucks at any of those. To actually use the money collected from the people as taxes and put it back into the things and services the people need is met with cries of SOCIALISM by the rubes, who don't see the irony of what is happening.

 

[Jon-T]

I had no idea Norway was such a tiny country until this thread made me curious. Five million people makes it considerably smaller than the bay area.

Norway is also the 13th largest oil exporter in the world.

Like a small middle east country they have a veritable golden goose laying eggs. This allows them to afford a little extra.

 

[fskimospy]

Sure, we just discover (and actually extract) enough oil to make us rich as them, what with the oil and gas sector constituting around 22% of Norwegian GDP in a nation of 5.2 million people. Which in quantified terms means we just need to find a source that represents 20 times our current extraction levels, and we can have Norway level standards of living. That's easy peasy, right?

Sweden has a higher standard of living than the US and doesn't have massive oil reserves so clearly that is not necessary. Several other European countries also achieve this without significant mineral wealth.

 

[glenn1]

Sweden has a higher standard of living than the US and doesn't have massive oil reserves so clearly that is not necessary. Several other European countries also achieve this without significant mineral wealth.

Define "standard of living" then. If your preference is a for a high-floor/low ceiling place to live where you don't mind living in more cramped spaces, higher costs, paying to use the bathroom, and being charged VAT on everything to pay for your "free" college and healthcare then sure, Sweden is nice. It's the Texas model vs. California model at nation-state scale and if you know you'll never be economically successful (or have any desire to do what it takes to be) then of course a place with more social welfare policies will be preferrable. To think there's any one answer that everyone would agree to on "what's the right model for government" is foolish. It doesn't help either that Sweden has implemented numerous policies that are opposed to the death by progressives here like partially privatizing social security (or "reforming" if you want to pedantically argue that it's not privatization) and implementing school choice so that kinda muddies the waters for your pro-progressive arguments.

 

[fskimospy]

Define "standard of living" then. If your preference is a for a high-floor/low ceiling place to live where you don't mind living in more cramped spaces, higher costs, paying to use the bathroom, and being charged VAT on everything to pay for your "free" college and healthcare then sure, Sweden is nice. It's the Texas model vs. California model at nation-state scale and if you know you'll never be economically successful (or have any desire to do what it takes to be) then of course a place with more social welfare policies will be preferrable.

I would go by the Human Development Index, where Sweden is comfortably ahead of the US. Seems odd that a place you think would be so attractive to people who don't want to be successful is more successful than the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#Complete_list_of_countries

To think there's any one answer that everyone would agree to on "what's the right model for government" is foolish. It doesn't help either that Sweden has implemented numerous policies that are opposed to the death by progressives here like partially privatizing social security (or "reforming" if you want to pedantically argue that it's not privatization) and implementing school choice so that kinda muddies the waters for your pro-progressive arguments.

I'm a supporter of school choice so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Regardless, your post reminds me of this:

 

[glenn1]

I would go by the Human Development Index, where Sweden is comfortably ahead of the US. Seems odd that a place you think would be so attractive to people who don't want to be successful is more successful than the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#Complete_list_of_countries



I'm a supporter of school choice so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Regardless, your post reminds me of this:

Nice meme, but like you I'm fine if your state adopts "socialist" policies. I just don't agree with the federal government adopting them. There's a reason why we have sovereign states that allow people to self-sort themselves to a place with government values that mirror their own. To believe the people of New York and Wyoming would want or demand the same level of social welfare taxation and spending is ridiculous.

 

[fskimospy]

Nice meme, but like you I'm fine if your state adopts "socialist" policies. I just don't agree with the federal government adopting them. There's a reason why we have sovereign states that allow people to self-sort themselves to a place with government values that mirror their own. To believe the people of New York and Wyoming would want or demand the same level of social welfare taxation and spending is ridiculous.

Well sure, but nobody's trying to make Wyoming and New York identical. There are certain things we want to apply to everyone though, like access to health care, and states like Wyoming just aren't rich enough to do it for their citizens themselves so New York will help them out.

 

[Jhhnn]

Nice meme, but like you I'm fine if your state adopts "socialist" policies. I just don't agree with the federal government adopting them. There's a reason why we have sovereign states that allow people to self-sort themselves to a place with government values that mirror their own. To believe the people of New York and Wyoming would want or demand the same level of social welfare taxation and spending is ridiculous.

Heh. Nearly 1/4 of the jobs in Wyoming are gubmint jobs. Go figure.

 

[Jhhnn]

double post of forum weirdness.

 

[glenn1]

Well sure, but nobody's trying to make Wyoming and New York identical. There are certain things we want to apply to everyone though, like access to health care, and states like Wyoming just aren't rich enough to do it for their citizens themselves so New York will help them out.

Just send your money then and leave form of government as it is. Everyone is happy.

 

[fskimospy]

Just send your money then and leave form of government as it is. Everyone is happy.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. They have to contribute too, just not as much as other places. When they were admitted to the United States they knew the score, and that means that they don't get the only say over how their government works and that they have to accept federal control as well.

After all we already give Wyoming gigantic electoral welfare as it is, if they're unable to pass their preferred policies even with all that help then they sound like they aren't very good policies.