Why are we the only industrialized country without universal health care?
- Thread starter Syringer
- Start date
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
No, it is because in a capitalistic society things aren't "free", plus our country was founded on "less" gov't in our daily lives and some of us would like to see our gov't head back towards that goal
I'm not a "cold-hearted" Republican, infact while I identify myself as such I would support a small form of "universal care"(which i've outlined in the past) but I know that which I could support will never happen since the BBers will demand more than i'm willing to support.
CkG
Zebo
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Americans have this illusion of freedom which the intrests can play upon when the issue comes up. It's very sucessful and profitable.
But simple math would tell us having univeral care would cost less because we are eliminating about 4-5 middle men who suck off the system. Insurers, Medical schools and the AMA, private clinics/hospitals and thier associted sharholders, Lawyers all strive heath care cost more and keep it private.
Sorry Universal care will never happen like an EU country or Japan.
But simple math would tell us having univeral care would cost less because we are eliminating about 4-5 middle men who suck off the system. Insurers, Medical schools and the AMA, private clinics/hospitals and thier associted sharholders, Lawyers all strive heath care cost more and keep it private.
Sorry Universal care will never happen like an EU country or Japan.
Yes, but currently thanks to universal health care, the UK has a bad outbreak of common VD because of the time it takes to see a doctor and then it is requiring a few more days to get the cure. MRIs are scarse in Canada compared to the US. Universal healthcare is no panacea.
Hayabusa Rider
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Part of the reason that UHC isn't going to happen any time soon is because America already has a health care system. When the politicians decide to run medicine, they are first going to have to the system we have, then put up a whole new one. Pols screwed up HIPAA, and that was tiny compared to changing health care. It could be that we wind up with a totally unworkable system for a decade until things get sorted out. I am not against UHC per se, but I have seen Washington screw things up before, and I can see lots more people dying as a result than are now.
Zebo
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No panacea I agree. I've never thought about it. I think some changes need to be made prolly not universal care though.
1. Open some freken medical schools. (no new schools have opened in about 25 years)
2. Increase enrollment at established schools (more doctors means more pro-bono work and cheaper care)
3. Looser pays in all lawsiuts
4. More Nurse practitioners for basic care.
5. Basic care should be limited to 2x a year if you're on the dole
6. Maybe make a fund, say 100 billion, cap it, and that's all the money available for care for that year for the poor and uninsured. If it expires in June too bad. I think the system will correct for itself and eliminate waste.
Yes but it will increased to 200B the next year so all expenses are covered. Better yet make health care easier to afford. Let hospitals and doctors write off the the expense of taking care of those that cant pay. No income taxes on overtime or jobs that put your total above 40 hours/week.
because were to busy giving foreign aid to other countries. spending over 250+ billion dollars on defense/military. And lets not forget the bases around the world we somehow "have to" have. and last but not least politicians could care-less about the "people"...
Zebo
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I knew about 30 people all rejected for medical school with above 3.5 GPA and top 25% MCAT back when I was in school (all white males but still good students.) It's well known the AMA has sought to limit schools accredidation and enrollment. Yes all schools all full to the brim and get thousands more qualified applicants than they accept, many people must go to third world carribean at super high tutition and a stigma in order to do thier calling. Sad really to have to pay more, in a volitle country, worse education, to be able to serve.
Most residences go unfilled because not enough grads are comming out of school.
Basic care is defined as immuizations, wart removal, common colds, stiches for a cut etc..anything which requires less than 15minute outpatient services. Sorry no MRI's or EKGs no high dollar meds only generics, etc get a job. Only emergency surguries allowed.
The chronically ill are already covered by SS and medicare/medicaid for more comprehensive and on going care they require. Why not afford some basic clinic care to the poor/unemployed which is cheaper than them attending the ER as is the case now?
how often? I answered this 2x a year at the tax payer expense after this you pay or don't get care or must apply for Medicaid/medicare.
what is covered? See above, not much.
Most residences go unfilled because not enough grads are comming out of school.
Basic care is defined as immuizations, wart removal, common colds, stiches for a cut etc..anything which requires less than 15minute outpatient services. Sorry no MRI's or EKGs no high dollar meds only generics, etc get a job. Only emergency surguries allowed.
The chronically ill are already covered by SS and medicare/medicaid for more comprehensive and on going care they require. Why not afford some basic clinic care to the poor/unemployed which is cheaper than them attending the ER as is the case now?
how often? I answered this 2x a year at the tax payer expense after this you pay or don't get care or must apply for Medicaid/medicare.
what is covered? See above, not much.
Zebo
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Originally posted by: AnImuS
because were to busy giving foreign aid to other countries. spending over 250+ billion dollars on defense/military. And lets not forget the bases around the world we somehow "have to" have. and last but not least politicians could care-less about the "people"...
Closer to 440 Billion. You must include Nasa, CIA, NSA, DOE (defese related) and finally the 55 billion VA in benefits.
The major problem is the number of government employees!! theres 2 million federal at an average salerary and benefit package of $60,000. This is 1/2 the federal budget at 1.2 Trillion. Hardy any money we pay in gets kicked backed to us and welfare is a needle in the haystack.
SS is a scam.
Because we are not a socialist country. UHC is something you find in heavily taxed socialist countries.
My neighbor just moved from Canada. She lived in England before that. She said the health care in both is corrupt and failing. She had absolutely nothing good to say about the Canadian system. I don't know, I don't live there, but that is what she said.
My neighbor just moved from Canada. She lived in England before that. She said the health care in both is corrupt and failing. She had absolutely nothing good to say about the Canadian system. I don't know, I don't live there, but that is what she said.
Vic
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Because the most basic essense of freedom is the freedom to not take part. Universal Health Care would destroy all that. Everyone would have to pay for it whether they wished to take part in the Health Care system or not (actually, especially if they don't, UHC would be so expensive... ).
Believe in a religion that doesn't allow modern medicine? Too bad, you have to pay. And the 1st Amendment goes out the window.
Are you in favor of drug legalization? With the high cost of Universal Health Care, not only will drugs never be legalized, but new laws will be passed against anything even mildly or possibly unhealthy, like eating at McD's for example, which is already a target.
Then you have the fact that America's taxpayers essentially pay for the whole world's military budget, whether you like it or not (or we like it or not).
And the last major problem is the America's high immigration rate. Notice how the EU is now almost entirely closed to new immigration? The social programs are at fault for this, and Universal Health Care is a major reason. In countries where taxation is higher than 50% of GDP, primarily because of social programs, a country simply cannot afford an influx of older immigrants to come in and tax the system. The only way for it to survive economically is to have a "cradle to the grave" system. In the state where I live, for example, one of its biggest budgetary problems is that illegal immigrants have on its low-income health care plan. Such a system is simply not sustainable.
The problem is not that we don't have hearts. That's just stupid. The problem is that Universal Health Care is financially a bad idea to begin with. Nothing is free. That is a simple fact of life. If you out there reading haven't come to terms with that simple fact, then I suggest that you face reality and do so.
Believe in a religion that doesn't allow modern medicine? Too bad, you have to pay. And the 1st Amendment goes out the window.
Are you in favor of drug legalization? With the high cost of Universal Health Care, not only will drugs never be legalized, but new laws will be passed against anything even mildly or possibly unhealthy, like eating at McD's for example, which is already a target.
Then you have the fact that America's taxpayers essentially pay for the whole world's military budget, whether you like it or not (or we like it or not).
And the last major problem is the America's high immigration rate. Notice how the EU is now almost entirely closed to new immigration? The social programs are at fault for this, and Universal Health Care is a major reason. In countries where taxation is higher than 50% of GDP, primarily because of social programs, a country simply cannot afford an influx of older immigrants to come in and tax the system. The only way for it to survive economically is to have a "cradle to the grave" system. In the state where I live, for example, one of its biggest budgetary problems is that illegal immigrants have on its low-income health care plan. Such a system is simply not sustainable.
The problem is not that we don't have hearts. That's just stupid. The problem is that Universal Health Care is financially a bad idea to begin with. Nothing is free. That is a simple fact of life. If you out there reading haven't come to terms with that simple fact, then I suggest that you face reality and do so.
Zebo
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I thought immigrants were the main contributors and success stories? It's lazy americans who would be mainly on the dole. My parents always loved to tell us kids when we were younger, to get our ass in gear, how they came here with ninety dollars between them and had thier house paid for by 30. Blah blah blah.. Anyway my sample is immigrants are assests not liablities.
Vic
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Immigrants are assets... in a capitalist economy. In a socialist economy, they are liabilities, because they have adult needs on the system without having paid taxes into the system from birth. Which is one of the many reasons why socialist countries never succeed. Without immigrants feeding life and new ideas, collapse is inevitable.
Zebo
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Immigrants are assets... in a capitalist economy. In a socialist economy, they are liabilities, because they have adult needs on the system without having paid taxes into the system from birth. Which is one of the many reasons why socialist countries never succeed. Without immigrants feeding life and new ideas, collapse is inevitable.
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Adult needs?? What might those be? A road to get to work so we can take care of everyone else, that's it.
Who's paying taxes since birth over here? If anything every child in america or any place else is a liability to the tax payer until they reach the age of 15-18 and start contributing. Then again at around 55-60 many become a liability again.
Let move to sweden. They similarly would prefer immigrants to come in productive at around 18-50 instead of as a child. No?
Socialism has never exsisted on a grand scale. Socialism requires no money all goods are made for the collective without regaurd to ability to pay. Think a small indian tribe in the rain forest of brazil this is a socialist economy. It has never existed because when people are anonymous we don't care about them. I think you mean liberal democracies of western europe.
(Sweden has achieved an enviable standard of living under a mixed system of high-tech capitalism and extensive welfare benefits. )
cia world fact book
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Adult needs?? What might those be? A road to get to work so we can take care of everyone else, that's it.
Who's paying taxes since birth over here? If anything every child in america or any place else is a liability to the tax payer until they reach the age of 15-18 and start contributing. Then again at around 55-60 many become a liability again.
Let move to sweden. They similarly would prefer immigrants to come in productive at around 18-50 instead of as a child. No?
Socialism has never exsisted on a grand scale. Socialism requires no money all goods are made for the collective without regaurd to ability to pay. Think a small indian tribe in the rain forest of brazil this is a socialist economy. It has never existed because when people are anonymous we don't care about them. I think you mean liberal democracies of western europe.
(Sweden has achieved an enviable standard of living under a mixed system of high-tech capitalism and extensive welfare benefits. )
cia world fact book
Vic
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You're falling short on facts and running long on rhetoric there, Carbonyl.
Sweden scarcely compares to the US. Not in population, not in economy, and certainly not in immigration (compared to the US, Sweden is a closed door). US companies already own most of their largest industries. And I can hardly call any economy where all (but those on the dole) pay more than 50% in taxes as "capitalist."
And socialism is a type of economy, liberal democracy is a political form of government.
Sweden scarcely compares to the US. Not in population, not in economy, and certainly not in immigration (compared to the US, Sweden is a closed door). US companies already own most of their largest industries. And I can hardly call any economy where all (but those on the dole) pay more than 50% in taxes as "capitalist."
And socialism is a type of economy, liberal democracy is a political form of government.
Sweden also ran its investor class out of the country and came clost to collapsing its economy. They did not return until they dropped some of their insane tax structures.
Zebo
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Then you better stop calling america capitalist right now. Especially if you live in NY, MA or CA. With federal at 38%, ss and mediciad up to 19%, state at up to 13%, sales up to 8.5%, gas up to 65%, property up to 3% one can easy pay more than 50%.
Do you have any proof of this? I remember reading something they took in millions of refuges from both africa and balkans. I've been there it's, very diverse like the US.
There are three types of societies: egalitarian (socialism), moderated meritocracy (Conservatism and liberalism), and unrestricted meritocracy (libertarianism).
The only difference between US and Sweden or any other first worlder (or a dem or repub for that matter) under our moderated meritocracies (where the most successful continue to be rewarded the most, but a percentage of their power or income is redistributed back to the middle and lower class.) is liberals, who lean more towards equality, believe the degree of redistribution should be rather high; conservatives, who lean more towards merit, believe that it should be rather low.
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