why are some nv fans so hard on the competing ati products?

[CaiNaM]

ok, nv40 rocks in D3, no doubt.

but as fast as it is in D3 compared to my x800p, the x800p is that much faster than my GT in farcry. granted, it's still running the sm2 path, but where the hell is the fc 1.2 patch? it's been well over a month since all the fanfare w/ sites benching fc's sm3 path....

it also runs incredibly hot even at default clocks compared to my pro: 72c @ idle compared to 46c, and it's definately louder than the PRO, tho not unbearably so - i would think this would be a significant concern for all the SFF pcs out there.

don't get me wrong; i think the GT is a great card, but i'm having a hard time understanding why so many cheerleaders claim the PRO gets it's ass handed to it by the GT, as this certainly doesn't seem to be the case from my experience when comparing the overall +/-'s of these two (fine) products.

edit: ok, changed the title in hopes of better reflecting the thread content

 

[Genx87]

1. Faster in 90% of the situations
2. Cheaper in 90% of the situations

I wouldnt call it cheerleading for a faster cheaper solution.

 

[Insomniak]

I wouldn't say the Pro gets stomped by the GT by any means, but the GT does come out ahead in the majority of benchmarks. Given that they're at the same price point, and the GT has a better feature set, the same performance, and (this is debatable, but to me it counts) better stability, I think it's mostly about getting more for your dough.

Plus, I'm going to bet the GT is more future proof as well - 4 extra pipes may not make a big difference right now, but when games start to include more shaders, I think we'll see the gap between the Pro and GT widen.

 

[SnOop005]

Well, my reason picking the GT over pro is because:

1. 16 pipeline compare to 12 on the pro
2. Easily OC to Ultra speed without spending the extra 100
3. I bought mine for 310.
4. DOOM3

I'm sure there is a lot of opposition for this but I think at least one of my reason is why so many ppo
are going with the pro. I swear to my self that my next car will be an ATI, but then I thought if a lot of gt is capable of ocing to ultra speed, it's like having a cheapman verison of Ultra and Ultra is faster than pro not matter what. I also thought of the HL2 being running faster on ATI cards, but 6800 will run it smooth enough. ATI running faster than Nvidia cards in HL2 is just comparing numbers.

 

[CaiNaM]

SnOop005[/i]

1. 16 pipeline compare to 12 on the pro

pipes mean nothing w/o considering the rest of the architecture

2. Easily OC to Ultra speed without spending the extra 100

well, mine indeed clocks to ultra speeds, but D3 will not run well - pauses intermittently until clocks set to default. hasn't been a problem in other games.

3. I bought mine for 310.

great price, but quite the exception (paid 330 & 350 for my x800x; $399 for my GT)

4. DOOM3

it's just 1 game, but hey.. it's a good reason as it's YOUR reason

I'm sure there is a lot of opposition for this but I think at least one of my reason is why so many ppo
are going with the pro. I swear to my self that my next car will be an ATI, but then I thought if a lot of gt is capable of ocing to ultra speed, it's like having a cheapman verison of Ultra and Ultra is faster than pro not matter what. I also thought of the HL2 being running faster on ATI cards, but 6800 will run it smooth enough. ATI running faster than Nvidia cards in HL2 is just comparing numbers.

that's logical also, but by your own reasoning, my PRO, while definately not in the same league in D3 performance as my GT, runs it more than smooth enough as well.

but thanks snoop, this is exactly the type of response i was looking for when posting this topic!

 

[Keysplayr]

And, FarCry really has nothing to do with Doom3. If you want the best Doom3 performance, you get a 6800 or 6800GT. If you want better performance in almost all the rest of the games out there with the exception of FarCry and maybe one or two others, you get a 6800GT. If you want better performance in FarCry, get a X800. It's really very simple to decide right now. I don't understand why you don't understand.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Genx87
1. Faster in 90% of the situations
2. Cheaper in 90% of the situations

I wouldnt call it cheerleading for a faster cheaper solution.

faster in 90%? hardly...

cheaper in 90%? that makes less sense then the first statement... incedently i had to pay alot more for my GT than either of my pros, tho i do have a $330 GT on backorder still...

at any rate, how bout we keep this to a logical discussion? i'm not dissin either product, we don't need to make stuff up to defend either card.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

http://www.xbitlabs.com/misc/picture/?src=/images/video/graphics_cards_1H-1004_charts/high_1280_candy.gif&1=1

The GT is only noticably faster in 7 or 8 game tests, out of 40. Also, due to the GT pimping the x800 Pro is actually available for $400, sometimes a few dollars less.

Plus, I'm going to bet the GT is more future proof as well - 4 extra pipes may not make a big difference right now, but when games start to include more shaders, I think we'll see the gap between the Pro and GT widen.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the x800 series do better in shader-intensive conditions?

I don't know why the GT is so popular, but I'd attribute it to several $300 deals and the lack of avialability of the Ultra and the XT moreso than the raw speed or price/performance it provides (using MSRP of course).

If you want better performance in almost all the rest of the games out there with the exception of FarCry and maybe one or two others, you get a 6800GT.

The cards are equal in many cases. You don't get better performance out of the GT in "almost all" games.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
And, FarCry really has nothing to do with Doom3. If you want the best Doom3 performance, you get a 6800 or 6800GT. If you want better performance in almost all the rest of the games out there with the exception of FarCry and maybe one or two others, you get a 6800GT. If you want better performance in FarCry, get a X800. It's really very simple to decide right now. I don't understand why you don't understand.

simple. the difference in performance in 90% of the games is minimal, regardless of which card actually leads. farcry is better on r420 atm, and D3 better on nv40 atm.. hl2? who knows... but seriously, the main point is that (with a couple of exceptions) they're very comparable. factor in heat, noise, etc (admittedly more important to some people than others), and to me it seems even more obvious that overall they're both very good products - which brings me back to the original point, "why do so many ppl slam the PRO when comparing to GT as if they aren't even in the same league?"

and frankly, many people take it as seriously as arguing religion or politics (and this applies to both camps), which is even more baffling

 

[gururu]

yea, I think the PRO outmatches the GT once AA/AF come into play in most games. the GT wouldn't have had such an impact if not for D3. that IS the bottom line.

 

[Darthvoy]

Well from my experience, having had both the x800 pro and the 6800gt, I can say that the 6800gt is faster. Something that I've learned from website benchmarks is to never go by what they say, as my experience always differ from their tests. Plus, I got a sweet deal on the 6800gt for $300.00, and sold the x800 pro on ebay for $445.00 used.

 

[rbV5]

The GT can offer nearly U performance, while the pro will always be slower than PE for the most part probably plays a part. The GT is a solid performer across the board probably plays a part. The pro is a great performer however and whether the GT has a better feature set depends on what you use it for. If you have a HTPC, or game with a Big screen, the pro is a much better choice IMO because of its native YPbPr output and superior driver support in that regard. "If" the PVP ever gets driver support, it could close the gap here. The pro has usable AA up to 6X in a lot of titles, while the GT doesn't support 6X, its 8X is mostly unusable. Hanners Review illustrates the level of performance between the cards pretty well, and indeed the GT is the faster card for the most part. I'd say the GT deserves cheerleaders, but X800pro certainly deserves more praise than it garners.

 

[ronnn]

I am still waiting for pci express - as my whole system needs an upgrade to really get much out of a new card. I have a feeling that a p 2.4c at 3.0 will limit any new card. I continue to lean towards ATI pro, especially if the vivo edition remains soft moddable. But if there is a quiet version of the GT, that could change. The 6800 series does have an advantage over the x800 in terms of performance, but remains slight enough at this time that other features may sway me. Those being power consumption and noise. If oil prices continue to escalate at this rate, we may be looking at power conservation more seriously next year, but then I would end up spending my computer budget on a hybred auto. :roll:

 

[CaiNaM]

rbV5[/i]

I'd say the GT deserves cheerleaders, but X800pro certainly deserves more praise than it garners.

ok, perhaps that's a better statement than the way i phrased it; it's not so much that i question the GT fans, rather the disrespect many apply to the PRO when comparing the two. i've said previously i thought the GT was a bit better value (when both are msrp), but at the same time, there are some things about the PRO which i like over the GT.

when comparing all the games i have available, such as d3, daoc, painkiller, ut2k4, daoc, call of duty, bfv, bf1942 (and so on), the only games i notice a difference when playing is farcry, in favor of the ati, and D3, in favor of nvidia (tho both are certainly offer more than playable performance in either title); the rest you couldn't tell the difference. i honestly can't see how one could be unhappy with either card, really, which makes me questoin why some ppl slam one card or the other.

the mid-range cards are a different matter however, as if things stay as announced, nvidia will literally dominate that market - but that's a different subject

 

[konakona]

Originally posted by: SnOop005
Well, my reason picking the GT over pro is because:

1. 16 pipeline compare to 12 on the pro
2. Easily OC to Ultra speed without spending the extra 100
3. I bought mine for 310.
4. DOOM3

I'm sure there is a lot of opposition for this but I think at least one of my reason is why so many ppo
are going with the pro. I swear to my self that my next car will be an ATI, but then I thought if a lot of gt is capable of ocing to ultra speed, it's like having a cheapman verison of Ultra and Ultra is faster than pro not matter what. I also thought of the HL2 being running faster on ATI cards, but 6800 will run it smooth enough. ATI running faster than Nvidia cards in HL2 is just comparing numbers.

ATI makes cars now?
just kidding

i was under impression 6800gt is slightly better in general and proabably has mroe untapped potential, but i guess i was mistaken. so you cant go wrong with either, only if they came down to low-mid 200ish mark

 

[Genx87]

3. Dont feel the need to make a thread justifying my purchase.

 

[Bumrush99]

I have been in the ATI camp for a while now. However, the 6800GT was too tempting to pass up. First of all, they are available for purchase, unlike the constrained X800 line. They run Doom 3 perfect. HL 2 will run well on both cards, and will probably run great on previous gen cards.

On top of that, everyone I know with a GT has it overclocked to Ultra speeds out of the box. Bumping up the core/memory on most ATI cards without 3rd party cooling solutions usually results in artificats with even minimal overclocks.

Oh, and btw, wait until the 1.2 patch from Far Cry becomes official. With shader 3, I went from 41fps to 55fps when benching the game with Hardware OC in 1024*768 16AF, 6AA, which is on par with the x800xt PE.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: VanillaH
i was under impression 6800gt is slightly better in general and proabably has mroe untapped potential, but i guess i was mistaken. so you cant go wrong with either, only if they came down to low-mid 200ish mark

i'm not arguing it isn't slightly better.. i think there are many logical arguments which could be made to support that statemtent. regarding "potential", that only means it hasn't done anything yet . it's also not like there's no potential for r420 either (for instance cat 4.8 will be released next week with full sm2b support, which includes instancing support).

i have no complaints regarding the GTs performance/features (and certainly can't fault anyone for owning one; hell i own one), however the temp and the noise are things i see as downsides, for instance.

anyways, not trying to argue in favor or against; as stated by rvb5 previoulsy, the GT certainly deserves it's share of praises, but at the same time many who praise the GT also like to push a negative impression of the PRO when (having both) it's hardly deserved.

i do think ati dropped the ball in several areas this generation, but the r420 is still a great piece of hardware, and can arguments can certainly be made in its favor as well.

 

[Kobra]

Simple really:

http://www.boredmofo.com/downloads/kobrasdoomscores.JPG

almost double the score with my 6800GT than the x800XT in Doom3.. But most of all, my last card was my first ATI card (9800Pro) and will be my last ATI card, it was very problematic for me.. But this BFG6800GT is a purchase i'm 100% satisfied with, its just slick, fast, runs everything perfectly, and OC'd or not OC'd, its fast as a bat out of hell in every game... Theres really no question why it is so popular, its logical considering the facts around it.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Bumrush99
I have been in the ATI camp for a while now. However, the 6800GT was too tempting to pass up. First of all, they are available for purchase, unlike the constrained X800 line. They run Doom 3 perfect. HL 2 will run well on both cards, and will probably run great on previous gen cards.

On top of that, everyone I know with a GT has it overclocked to Ultra speeds out of the box. Bumping up the core/memory on most ATI cards without 3rd party cooling solutions usually results in artificats with even minimal overclocks.

Oh, and btw, wait until the 1.2 patch from Far Cry becomes official. With shader 3, I went from 41fps to 55fps when benching the game with Hardware OC in 1024*768 16AF, 6AA, which is on par with the x800xt PE.

my PROs oc to 520/1.2 (sold that one) & 530/1.2 respectively, with no modifications. my GT runs fine at ultra clocks, with the exception of D3, where it will freeze for 10-15 seconds intermittently. runs D3 just fine @ stock BFGoc speeds.

i do look forward to the 1.2 patch, but feel the timing of it's "announcement" certainly had more to do with nv's marketing than anything else (over a month after it was released to sites for benchmarking tests, it's still unavail.) also, it's not only nv40 which will benefit from it; ati will receive some benefits as well, as it will add support for sm2b and instancing (and perhaps 3Dc?) as well as adding sm3 support.

frankly tho, farcry is rather old news, and worse the D3 excitement was short lived (i know D3 has its fanbase as well, but i'm hardly the only one who feels it's a "one trick pony" and is already at least somewhat bored with it). at this point i'm more interested in how these cards will perform in HL2 and Stalker

Originally posted by: Kobra
Simple really:

http://www.boredmofo.com/downloads/kobrasdoomscores.JPG

almost double the score with my 6800GT than the x800XT in Doom3.. But most of all, my last card was my first ATI card (9800Pro) and will be my last ATI card, it was very problematic for me.. But this BFG6800GT is a purchase i'm 100% satisfied with, its just slick, fast, runs everything perfectly, and OC'd or not OC'd, its fast as a bat out of hell in every game... Theres really no question why it is so popular, its logical considering the facts around it.

the question wasn't really why it was so popular.

as for D3 performance, that isn't questioned, tho my PROs run them just fine, but at a resolution lower than my GT:

Operating System: Windows XP Professional (5.1, Build 2600) Service Pack 1 (2600.xpsp2.030422-1633)
Processor: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.20GHz (2 CPUs)
Memory: 1024MB RAM
DirectX Version: DirectX 9.0b (4.09.0000.0902)

------------ x800P CATALYST 4.9's 6800GT FW 6177
no AA/AF
1600 ------ 34.1 fps ----------------- 58.8

2xAA 4xAF
1024 ------ 63.5fps ------------------ 70.7
1280 ------ 47.9fps ------------------ 59.3

4xAA 8xAF
1024 ------ 48.4fps ------------------ 59.5
1280 ------ 34.6fps ------------------ 45.2

while i certainly don't see the disparity as AT's benches show, there's no doubt GT domintates PRO in D3.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

almost double the score with my 6800GT than the x800XT in Doom3..

:disgust:

72.2 is NOT "almost double" 51.5.

On top of that, everyone I know with a GT has it overclocked to Ultra speeds out of the box.

I did a poll, and 25% of people did not reach Ultra clocks IIRC.

 

[BenSkywalker]

And this is different from the last gen how? Everyone was slamming the 5900 relentlessly because the 9800 crushed it in TRAoD, only big difference I see this gen is people actually will play D3 without being paid large sums of money

Seriously- the hottest engine out runs best on the GT right now, people are going to ignore the rest of the benches or place little faith in them until the next big engine hits. You give D3 50% weighting and everything else combined 50% and the GT does look like it kills the Pro, much as last gen a couple synthetic benches and a game noone should be made to play got all of the weighting and everything else(all the games people wanted to play ) got ignored. It was the same with the Ti4200/R8500 gen too(well, there it was at least a little more clear cut in terms of dollar/performance).

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: GeneralGrievous

almost double the score with my 6800GT than the x800XT in Doom3..

:disgust:

72.2 is NOT "almost double" 51.5.

On top of that, everyone I know with a GT has it overclocked to Ultra speeds out of the box.

I did a poll, and 25% of people did not reach Ultra clocks IIRC.

i can run ultra clocks in everything EXCEPT D3 (tho it runs timedemo just fine). this card certainy runs much hotter than my PRO, which i'm sure is at least part of the reason. i'm mulling over getting a waterblock to see what diff, if any it makes on achievable oc...

as for not reaching ultra speeds, the diff overclocking makes is arguably not always worth the effort. ex: D3 @1600 no AA/AF HiQ

std BFG OC speed: 58.8
ultra speed: 61.8

3fps is hardly anything to get excited over.

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
And this is different from the last gen how? Everyone was slamming the 5900 relentlessly because the 9800 crushed it in TRAoD, only big difference I see this gen is people actually will play D3 without being paid large sums of money

Seriously- the hottest engine out runs best on the GT right now, people are going to ignore the rest of the benches or place little faith in them until the next big engine hits. You give D3 50% weighting and everything else combined 50% and the GT does look like it kills the Pro, much as last gen a couple synthetic benches and a game noone should be made to play got all of the weighting and everything else(all the games people wanted to play ) got ignored. It was the same with the Ti4200/R8500 gen too(well, there it was at least a little more clear cut in terms of dollar/performance).

having a 9700p/9800p/BFG 5900 (ultra speeds), imo the disparity was clearer last gen, especially with the release of FarCry. that being said, i did like my 5900 back then; seems i'm always defending the underdog, lol.... but while there were things i certainly liked about my 5900, the 9800p/xt had a much more clear-cut advantage - in several areas.

i do like your observation on the wieght placed on one title; while not a logical reaction, it would indeed seem to explain what's happening. also, like you i think the $100 less expensive vanilla 6800 out perfroming the PRO in D3 is what really deserves some attention, tho again it's only 1 game, regardless of the amt of weight placed on that.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
And, FarCry really has nothing to do with Doom3. If you want the best Doom3 performance, you get a 6800 or 6800GT. If you want better performance in almost all the rest of the games out there with the exception of FarCry and maybe one or two others, you get a 6800GT. If you want better performance in FarCry, get a X800. It's really very simple to decide right now. I don't understand why you don't understand.

simple. the difference in performance in 90% of the games is minimal, regardless of which card actually leads. farcry is better on r420 atm, and D3 better on nv40 atm.. hl2? who knows... but seriously, the main point is that (with a couple of exceptions) they're very comparable. factor in heat, noise, etc (admittedly more important to some people than others), and to me it seems even more obvious that overall they're both very good products - which brings me back to the original point, "why do so many ppl slam the PRO when comparing to GT as if they aren't even in the same league?"

and frankly, many people take it as seriously as arguing religion or politics (and this applies to both camps), which is even more baffling

Actually, the answer to that is simple also. While there is certainly no need to slam the PRO, (its a great card in it's own right) the GT has advantages that are evident more times than not for the same price point. I think the folks who buy the pros are the ones getting slammed, not so much the card itself. They get flack because people feel they could have done better by purchasing a GT instead and insist that the only reason they purchased a pro is because they are ATI fanboys and are too blind to make a correct decision. It's childish, I know. But what can we do? hehe.

 

[Kobra]

I converted 4 of my 9800Pro/XT friends over to Nvidia camp this weekend alone.. They came over, saw the games on the GT, and spent the next 3 days trying to find them for sale at Best Buy.

I think ATI is going to take a hit in business with their x800 series, not to mention the 9800Pro overheating fiasco and poor quality control.