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Why are People Against a war with Iraq?

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Originally posted by: DaveSohmer
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: DaveSohmer
If you can prove that I will walk into my CO's office Monday morning and tell her I quit. Otherwise please be quiet.
Are you saying that the US isn't going to try and get free oil if we invade Iraq, at the cost of lives and tax money? If you believe the propaganda the Bush administration has fed you then I feel sorry for you.

Either prove it or buy a chin strap for your tin-foil hat.

werd. This "for oil" BS has got to stop. We have enough oil here in the U.S. that isn't pumped out at all. In fact my family found a place where oil was on our land. The goverment offered us money to NOT pump it and to leave it be. We have more oil reserves than more know about here in the U.S.
 
Originally posted by: MacBaine
Originally posted by: jteef
The purpose of the military is supposed to be to protect us, NOT to extend our power to other countries.

can you back this up with any paperwork? Last I heard, we were not japan or germany...

jt

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


so has every single war we've ever fought in, other than the civil war, been unconstitutional?
edit: and the pacific theater of wwII

jt
 
Originally posted by: Stefan
Why are People Against a war with Iraq?

People are just sick of the US trying to be the world police. If anyone finds a REAL reason to go to war then people wont be against it.

Yeah well we're sick of your town's police dept. rounding up all the criminals that reside near you too. Criminals have rights to ya know. We need to stop policing your neighborhood ASAP. I suggest you take up arms or learn to take it up the...
 
Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
Etech, your post was long and wordy, but worthless, as ususal.

There is NO legal justification for a war with Iraq at this stage.

Iraq is currently in violation of part of one section of UN Security Council Resolution 687 (and a series of subsequent resolutions reiterating that segment) requiring full cooperation with United Nations inspectors ensuring that Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, delivery systems, and facilities for manufacturing such weapons are destroyed. The conflict regarding access for UN inspectors and possible Iraqi procurement of weapons of mass destruction has always been an issue involving the Iraqi government and the United Nations, not an impasse between Iraq and the United States. Although UN Security Council Resolution 687 was the most detailed in the world body's history, no military enforcement mechanisms were specified. Nor did the Security Council specify any military enforcement mechanisms in subsequent resolutions. As is normally the case when it is determined that governments violate all or part of UN resolutions, any decision about the enforcement of its resolutions is a matter for the UN Security Council as a whole ? not for any one member of the council.


The most explicit warning to Iraq regarding its noncompliance came in UN Security Council Resolution 1154. Although this resolution warned Iraq of the "severest consequences" if it continued its refusal to comply, the Security Council declared that it alone had the authority to "ensure implementation of this resolution and peace and security in the area."


According to articles 41 and 42 of the United Nations Charter, no member state has the right to enforce any resolution militarily unless the UN Security Council determines that there has been a material breach of its resolution, decides that all nonmilitary means of enforcement have been exhausted, and then specifically authorizes the use of military force. This is what the Security Council did in November 1990 with Resolution 678 in response to Iraq's ongoing occupation of Kuwait in violation of a series of resolutions passed that August. The UN has not done so for any subsequent violations involving Iraq or any other government.


If the United States can unilaterally claim the right to invade Iraq due to that country's violation of UN Security Council resolutions, other Security Council members could logically also claim the right to invade other member states that are in violation of UN Security Council resolutions. For example, Russia could claim the right to invade Israel, France could claim the right to invade Turkey, and Great Britain could claim the right to invade Morocco, simply because those targeted governments are also violating UN Security Council resolutions. The U.S. insistence on the right to attack unilaterally could seriously undermine the principle of collective security and the authority of the United Nations and in doing so would open the door to international anarchy.


International law is quite clear about when military force is allowed. In addition to the aforementioned case of UN Security Council authorization, the only other time that any member state is allowed to use armed force is described in Article 51, which states that it is permissible for "individual or collective self-defense" against "armed attack ... until the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to maintain international peace and security." If Iraq's neighbors were attacked or feared an imminent attack from Iraq, any of these countries could call on the United States to help, pending a Security Council decision authorizing the use of force. But they have not appealed to the Security Council, because they have not felt threatened by Iraq.


Based on evidence that the Bush administration has made public, there does not appear to be anything close to sufficient legal grounds for the United States to convince the Security Council to approve the use of military force against Iraq in U.S. self-defense. This may explain why the Bush administration has thus far refused to go before the United Nations on this matter. Unless the United States gets such authorization, any such attack on Iraq would be illegal and would be viewed by most members of the international community as an act of aggression. In contrast to the Persian Gulf War of 1990-91, it is likely that the world community would view the United States ? not Iraq ? as the international outlaw.

like the UN follows its own charter
rolleye.gif
 
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
Etech, your post was long and wordy, but worthless, as ususal.

There is NO legal justification for a war with Iraq at this stage.

Iraq is currently in violation of part of one section of UN Security Council Resolution 687 (and a series of subsequent resolutions reiterating that segment) requiring full cooperation with United Nations inspectors ensuring that Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, delivery systems, and facilities for manufacturing such weapons are destroyed. The conflict regarding access for UN inspectors and possible Iraqi procurement of weapons of mass destruction has always been an issue involving the Iraqi government and the United Nations, not an impasse between Iraq and the United States. Although UN Security Council Resolution 687 was the most detailed in the world body's history, no military enforcement mechanisms were specified. Nor did the Security Council specify any military enforcement mechanisms in subsequent resolutions. As is normally the case when it is determined that governments violate all or part of UN resolutions, any decision about the enforcement of its resolutions is a matter for the UN Security Council as a whole ? not for any one member of the council.


The most explicit warning to Iraq regarding its noncompliance came in UN Security Council Resolution 1154. Although this resolution warned Iraq of the "severest consequences" if it continued its refusal to comply, the Security Council declared that it alone had the authority to "ensure implementation of this resolution and peace and security in the area."


According to articles 41 and 42 of the United Nations Charter, no member state has the right to enforce any resolution militarily unless the UN Security Council determines that there has been a material breach of its resolution, decides that all nonmilitary means of enforcement have been exhausted, and then specifically authorizes the use of military force. This is what the Security Council did in November 1990 with Resolution 678 in response to Iraq's ongoing occupation of Kuwait in violation of a series of resolutions passed that August. The UN has not done so for any subsequent violations involving Iraq or any other government.


If the United States can unilaterally claim the right to invade Iraq due to that country's violation of UN Security Council resolutions, other Security Council members could logically also claim the right to invade other member states that are in violation of UN Security Council resolutions. For example, Russia could claim the right to invade Israel, France could claim the right to invade Turkey, and Great Britain could claim the right to invade Morocco, simply because those targeted governments are also violating UN Security Council resolutions. The U.S. insistence on the right to attack unilaterally could seriously undermine the principle of collective security and the authority of the United Nations and in doing so would open the door to international anarchy.


International law is quite clear about when military force is allowed. In addition to the aforementioned case of UN Security Council authorization, the only other time that any member state is allowed to use armed force is described in Article 51, which states that it is permissible for "individual or collective self-defense" against "armed attack ... until the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to maintain international peace and security." If Iraq's neighbors were attacked or feared an imminent attack from Iraq, any of these countries could call on the United States to help, pending a Security Council decision authorizing the use of force. But they have not appealed to the Security Council, because they have not felt threatened by Iraq.


Based on evidence that the Bush administration has made public, there does not appear to be anything close to sufficient legal grounds for the United States to convince the Security Council to approve the use of military force against Iraq in U.S. self-defense. This may explain why the Bush administration has thus far refused to go before the United Nations on this matter. Unless the United States gets such authorization, any such attack on Iraq would be illegal and would be viewed by most members of the international community as an act of aggression. In contrast to the Persian Gulf War of 1990-91, it is likely that the world community would view the United States ? not Iraq ? as the international outlaw.

like the UN follows its own charter
rolleye.gif

Care to expand upon your reply?

and...


:::: Drum roll :::::

for good measure...










rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
. See, i'm cool too now!
 
Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
Originally posted by: ElFenix

like the UN follows its own charter
rolleye.gif

Care to expand upon your reply?

and...


:::: Drum roll :::::

for good measure...










rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
rolleye.gif
. See, i'm cool too now!
by the UN charter no state can pay for more than 25% of UN expenditures but the US is continually levied more than that.

 
Originally posted by: Dari
That question has been bothering me for a while.

If it means cheaper oil for me, then let's do it.
If it means one less fanatical dictator to worry about down the road, then let's do it.
If it means less weapons of mass destruction, then let's do it.
If it means a more accountable and democratic Iraq (and eventually Middle East), then let's do it.
If it means a more pro-american government in the region with a bright future, then let's do it.

For all these reasons, I see nothing wrong with invading iraq for the good of this country and for the good of the iraqi people. Why listen to wannabees (Germany and France), dictatorship/fascist states (China), theocracies (The Vatican and Iran) and other states of concern when it comes to the good of THIS country?

In the case of Iraq, the end justifies the means.

Yeah that sounds like some pretty good reasons , if it means to change back to the world order of the dark ages where the law of the stronger reigns then lets do it

 
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: dahunan
When exactly did Iraq spill blood on our soil?

When has Iraq openly threatened to do harm against the United States? (Unprovoked harm - sure they have threatened to defend themselves..etc..)

Tell me what Iraq has done that China hasn't and that NOrth Korea hasn't and that Saudi Arabia hasn't?

As for the first couple of questions, read my first post. As for the last one, patience. All is in due time.


EDIT: For those that haven't realized it yet, we are in a new era. Our power stretches far beyond our borders. It is immense compared to any other nation. By acting in a multilateral and isolationalist manner, all we do is squander our power. Time to put them to good use for us. We can't sit around and wait until states of concern become problematic. Pre-emptive action makes a lot of sense for a country with this amount of power.

Sounds like something Hitler could have thaught too...

 
Originally posted by: B00ne
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: dahunan
When exactly did Iraq spill blood on our soil?

When has Iraq openly threatened to do harm against the United States? (Unprovoked harm - sure they have threatened to defend themselves..etc..)

Tell me what Iraq has done that China hasn't and that NOrth Korea hasn't and that Saudi Arabia hasn't?

As for the first couple of questions, read my first post. As for the last one, patience. All is in due time.


EDIT: For those that haven't realized it yet, we are in a new era. Our power stretches far beyond our borders. It is immense compared to any other nation. By acting in a multilateral and isolationalist manner, all we do is squander our power. Time to put them to good use for us. We can't sit around and wait until states of concern become problematic. Pre-emptive action makes a lot of sense for a country with this amount of power.

Sounds like something Hitler could have thaught too...

sounds like something every european head of state has thought of and does so until this day.
 
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Is that so?




link 1

Link 2

Link 3
you have to include all military expenditures for UN forces, not just peace keeping ones, which those don't do. the US is by far the largest portion of the initial force.


They do that because they are the ones that are most flexing the military muscle of the U.N. Our government doesn't MIND ONE BIT spending that kind of money, if they did, they wouldn't. Simple as that. Look at the current situation. The U.N. is trying to have its inspectors look for any evidence of the further development of nuclear weapons, and our government has already found them guilty. We are itching for a war with them, and so if we do spend more on military it is because of OUR actions, not the U.N.'s. Heck, most members of the U.N. want us to cool down and exhaust all other options before we engage in military conflict.
 
Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Is that so?




link 1

Link 2

Link 3
you have to include all military expenditures for UN forces, not just peace keeping ones, which those don't do. the US is by far the largest portion of the initial force.


They do that because they are the ones that are most flexing the military muscle of the U.N. Our government doesn't MIND ONE BIT spending that kind of money, if they did, they wouldn't. Simple as that. Look at the current situation. The U.N. is trying to have its inspectors look for any evidence of the further development of nuclear weapons, and our government has already found them guilty. We are itching for a war with them, and so if we do spend more on military it is because of OUR actions, not the U.N.'s. Heck, most members of the U.N. want us to cool down and exhaust all other options before we engage in military conflict.
when did i say just for the possibly upcoming war? i don't recall saying that.
 
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Is that so?




link 1

Link 2

Link 3
you have to include all military expenditures for UN forces, not just peace keeping ones, which those don't do. the US is by far the largest portion of the initial force.


They do that because they are the ones that are most flexing the military muscle of the U.N. Our government doesn't MIND ONE BIT spending that kind of money, if they did, they wouldn't. Simple as that. Look at the current situation. The U.N. is trying to have its inspectors look for any evidence of the further development of nuclear weapons, and our government has already found them guilty. We are itching for a war with them, and so if we do spend more on military it is because of OUR actions, not the U.N.'s. Heck, most members of the U.N. want us to cool down and exhaust all other options before we engage in military conflict.
when did i say just for the possibly upcoming war? i don't recall saying that.


Kosovo, Iraq, these are but examples.
rolleye.gif
<-- a justified roll
 
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: B00ne
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: dahunan
When exactly did Iraq spill blood on our soil?

When has Iraq openly threatened to do harm against the United States? (Unprovoked harm - sure they have threatened to defend themselves..etc..)

Tell me what Iraq has done that China hasn't and that NOrth Korea hasn't and that Saudi Arabia hasn't?

As for the first couple of questions, read my first post. As for the last one, patience. All is in due time.


EDIT: For those that haven't realized it yet, we are in a new era. Our power stretches far beyond our borders. It is immense compared to any other nation. By acting in a multilateral and isolationalist manner, all we do is squander our power. Time to put them to good use for us. We can't sit around and wait until states of concern become problematic. Pre-emptive action makes a lot of sense for a country with this amount of power.

Sounds like something Hitler could have thaught too...

sounds like something every european head of state has thought of and does so until this day.

?
 
Originally posted by: B00ne
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: B00ne
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: dahunan
When exactly did Iraq spill blood on our soil?

When has Iraq openly threatened to do harm against the United States? (Unprovoked harm - sure they have threatened to defend themselves..etc..)

Tell me what Iraq has done that China hasn't and that NOrth Korea hasn't and that Saudi Arabia hasn't?

As for the first couple of questions, read my first post. As for the last one, patience. All is in due time.


EDIT: For those that haven't realized it yet, we are in a new era. Our power stretches far beyond our borders. It is immense compared to any other nation. By acting in a multilateral and isolationalist manner, all we do is squander our power. Time to put them to good use for us. We can't sit around and wait until states of concern become problematic. Pre-emptive action makes a lot of sense for a country with this amount of power.

Sounds like something Hitler could have thaught too...

sounds like something every european head of state has thought of and does so until this day.

?
you're not very familiar with realist policy and the foreign policy regime that europe existed under until at least WWII. heck, even the US did that up until woodrow wilson decided that the only way to get americans to ignore washington's foreign alliance comment was to tell them they had some greater good to perform on the world stage.
 
Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
Etech, your post was long and wordy, but worthless, as ususal.

There is NO legal justification for a war with Iraq at this stage.

Iraq is currently in violation of part of one section of UN Security Council Resolution 687 (and a series of subsequent resolutions reiterating that segment) requiring full cooperation with United Nations inspectors ensuring that Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, delivery systems, and facilities for manufacturing such weapons are destroyed. The conflict regarding access for UN inspectors and possible Iraqi procurement of weapons of mass destruction has always been an issue involving the Iraqi government and the United Nations, not an impasse between Iraq and the United States. Although UN Security Council Resolution 687 was the most detailed in the world body's history, no military enforcement mechanisms were specified. Nor did the Security Council specify any military enforcement mechanisms in subsequent resolutions. As is normally the case when it is determined that governments violate all or part of UN resolutions, any decision about the enforcement of its resolutions is a matter for the UN Security Council as a whole ? not for any one member of the council.


The most explicit warning to Iraq regarding its noncompliance came in UN Security Council Resolution 1154. Although this resolution warned Iraq of the "severest consequences" if it continued its refusal to comply, the Security Council declared that it alone had the authority to "ensure implementation of this resolution and peace and security in the area."


According to articles 41 and 42 of the United Nations Charter, no member state has the right to enforce any resolution militarily unless the UN Security Council determines that there has been a material breach of its resolution, decides that all nonmilitary means of enforcement have been exhausted, and then specifically authorizes the use of military force. This is what the Security Council did in November 1990 with Resolution 678 in response to Iraq's ongoing occupation of Kuwait in violation of a series of resolutions passed that August. The UN has not done so for any subsequent violations involving Iraq or any other government.


If the United States can unilaterally claim the right to invade Iraq due to that country's violation of UN Security Council resolutions, other Security Council members could logically also claim the right to invade other member states that are in violation of UN Security Council resolutions. For example, Russia could claim the right to invade Israel, France could claim the right to invade Turkey, and Great Britain could claim the right to invade Morocco, simply because those targeted governments are also violating UN Security Council resolutions. The U.S. insistence on the right to attack unilaterally could seriously undermine the principle of collective security and the authority of the United Nations and in doing so would open the door to international anarchy.


International law is quite clear about when military force is allowed. In addition to the aforementioned case of UN Security Council authorization, the only other time that any member state is allowed to use armed force is described in Article 51, which states that it is permissible for "individual or collective self-defense" against "armed attack ... until the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to maintain international peace and security." If Iraq's neighbors were attacked or feared an imminent attack from Iraq, any of these countries could call on the United States to help, pending a Security Council decision authorizing the use of force. But they have not appealed to the Security Council, because they have not felt threatened by Iraq.


Based on evidence that the Bush administration has made public, there does not appear to be anything close to sufficient legal grounds for the United States to convince the Security Council to approve the use of military force against Iraq in U.S. self-defense. This may explain why the Bush administration has thus far refused to go before the United Nations on this matter. Unless the United States gets such authorization, any such attack on Iraq would be illegal and would be viewed by most members of the international community as an act of aggression. In contrast to the Persian Gulf War of 1990-91, it is likely that the world community would view the United States ? not Iraq ? as the international outlaw.

Jesus Christ, what will it take to make liberals understand? I know, maybe we should give Iraq another 12 years. Or turn a blind eye. Fvck legal justification. All of this is common sense. Sodarn Insane is a fanatical dictator that has caused too much headache for his neighbors for far too long. He is a problem. We made a mistake by not dealing with him in 1991. He's had 12 fvckin years to come clean. But he won't. Now all the liberals are coming out of the woodwork proclaiming sodarn's legitimate right to slaughter his people and hold the world hostage. This guy has to be dealt with and the time is now. As I've said before, the UN is irrevelant. Without the US, it would be nothing more than a paper tiger.

 
Jesus Christ, what will it take to make liberals understand? I know, maybe we should give Iraq another 12 years. Or turn a blind eye. Fvck legal justification. All of this is common sense. Sodarn Insane is a fanatical dictator that has caused too much headache for his neighbors for far too long. He is a problem. We made a mistake by not dealing with him in 1991. He's had 12 fvckin years to come clean. But he won't. Now all the liberals are coming out of the woodwork proclaiming sodarn's legitimate right to slaughter his people and hold the world hostage. This guy has to be dealt with and the time is now. As I've said before, the UN is irrevelant. Without the US, it would be nothing more than a paper tiger.

you are right that he have 12 fvcking years to comply and he breach that! He has play the UN like a fool and getting away with it too long!

But do you think it is worth killing another 100,000 iraq soldier( which alot of these soldier don't want to be there, since alot of them just surrender afther they see the US soilder are coming)?

I know you are not Iraqis but what if the situation are switch around?
 
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