Why are Macs/Linux so slow to load apps?

Stan

Senior member
Jan 4, 2005
614
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Not to start a flamewar, but why are Macintosh computers, as well as Linux so slow to open programs compared to Windows?

Example: iCal on a mac mini takes 12 seconds to load. System preferences takes like 20. etc.

It just seems like apps load so much faster in Windows. I have Windows and Linux installed on my laptop and Firefox and Thunderbird seem to load ~5 seconds quicker in Windows.

Its not just one or two apps. It seems like everything is kinda laggy on a Mac, or in Linux. After switching back to Windows it seems snappy.
 

keeleysam

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2005
8,131
0
0
Mac:

You are probobly ruinng an OLD mac or one tha tneeds more ram.

Mac/Linux:

Firefox and Thunderbird (by default) live in the taskbar on Windows. Sitting there hogging memory. On Mac and Linux, they don't do that by default.
 

Stan

Senior member
Jan 4, 2005
614
0
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Mac is a G4 1.3 (dual) with 1gig ram.

As for Firefox and Thunderbird living on the taskbar.. they do not. But nice try. As I said, and you missed it seems, all apps on Windows seem faster, as well as system responsiveness. Any real answers as to why Windows loads apps so much faster?
 

Darien

Platinum Member
Feb 27, 2002
2,817
1
0
Hmm...I've never really noticed it. You should have enough ram and cpu speed to run anything just normally.
 

bersl2

Golden Member
Aug 2, 2004
1,617
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0
1) Unless you get out the stopwatch, you don't know for sure.
2) Are the machine specs more or less equivalent?
3) (For the Linux setup) What about the VM tunables and hdparm settings? Have those been messed with or are set to slower defaults? With what options were the kernel compiled? (Specifically, were the kernel preemption options CONFIG_PREEMPT & CONFIG_PREEMPT_BKL turned on?)

The point is, personal experience is a terrible predictor of generalizations like those you are making here. Furthermore, to blame these perceived problems on the entire system in general is faulty logic, especally since specific components can be isolated and fixed. You're going about this in a very unscientific and un-engineer-like way.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
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0
Well macs are just plane slower is many respects.

In Linux I know for things like Gnome most of the startup time is the computer looking for and accessing files on the disk.

For instance you have all your user preferences stored in your home directory. These reside in .filename and .directoryname files and directories.

The . before the name makes them hidden.

So when you start up a new app, it looks for those files. Then if they don't find them then it makes all new preferences for itself by ready system defaults setup by whoever made the things.

And thats just one thing they do. Many apps try to find and access a few hundred small files in various locations and although it's small files it does take time because disk access is the slowest possible thing in your computer.

In Windows, buy comparision, all the information is stored in the registry.

There are trade offs. If I mess up my GUI enviroment I can just delete (after backing it up to a seperate directory, of course!) my .file associated with the messed up app it gets set back to defaults or If I have a home directory on a remote file server then the settings are the same were ever I go.

With Windows it's easier to write big system configuration utilities and access to configs is much quicker.

Other applications are just plain SLOW. Like OpenOffice for example. That thing is bloatware and takes forever to load up... but it's fairly fast and nice to use once it's running.

Another thing why it seems that Linux stuff takes a while to load up is because in Windows the system loads much of the libraries and code as it boots up and keeps that stuff in memory.

Both Linux and Windows use software libraries. These software libraries are in the form of .so files in linux and .dll files in Windows. The contain code and functions that can get loaded dynamicly up into applications so that application writers can save themselves the effort of having to re-write every little thing and it saves memory. These things form part of what is called a 'API' or application programming interface.

Windows is very complex, and Linux is relatively simple in comparision.

However windows is much more unified developement. So when Windows loads up most of the system libraries are pre-cached and loaded and all that.

That's why things like IE seem to be so small in Windows compared to Firefox sometimes. IE just uses buil-in windows stuff while Firefox/Mozilla loads up it's own stuff.

In Linux you have two major source of application libraries for GUI applications.

One is the GTK+ library, which is associated with Gnome and the other is the KDE stuff with mainly QT as the GUI library.

Gnome and KDE each have their own whole set of dependancies and have their own set of background applications that need to be running to support them.

For instance Gnome has gconfd to help manage system configurations. KDE has the artsd sound deamon for it's desktop.

So if your using a GTK app in KDE you have to load up not only all of the KDE libraries and the kde support apps, you have to also load up part of the GTK stuff to get the app to run.

All of this takes time to read from the disk.

Other the otherhand when I am using Gnome and have to run a KDE app it has to load up artsd and a bunch of other stuff, and have a bunch of errors (that don't realy matter to the actual app) because other KDE stuff isn't running.

That's why Linux is much more memory sensitive then Windows.

With Windows CPU speed matters more, but with Linux memory matters more.

So you can reduce the resource draw by Linux on your system by sticking to KDE apps in KDE and Gnome/GTK apps in Gnome.

Or using minimalist enviroments.

The plus side for Linux is that having this background stuff going on doesn't realy affect your system speed. Linux has very good scedualing capabilities and very good memory management so that when I run games it's not very important to have all this stuff turned off to run fast. Most of the time if your not using a app it doesn't use CPU time even when it's open. It's only a problem with stuff that has animations and such.

The other issue with having stuff in the background is that sound servers like artsd can seize control of your card and not allow other apps to access it if your sound card doesnt' support hardware mixing. (there are ways of setting up software mixing in Linux, but most of it's not setup by default. In windows your always using software mixing, I beleive, unless your using special drivers like asio or whatever)

Often I play games like ETF on one X server in single screen mode (alt-ctl-F8) but have my browser and command line irc stuff open in the dual screen mode on a different X server (alt-ctl-F8). As long as I don't have pages with flash animation on it doesn't have any effect on refresh rate as I play the actual game. This is something you can't do in Windows because Windows only allows one gui enviroment at a time.

I have a gig of ram though.

The only real downside is just the long load up times. most of that is just due to disk access. You can reduce disk access by having lots of memory and/or only using apps associated with your current enviroment.
 

imported_Lucifer

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2004
5,139
1
0
Something must be wrong with your Mac. My 400mhz G4 with 768mb of RAM opens iCal in 3-4 seconds. It also opens System Preferences in 2-3 seconds. :confused:
 

AnonymouseUser

Diamond Member
May 14, 2003
9,943
107
106
Originally posted by: Stan
Not to start a flamewar, but why are Macintosh computers, as well as Linux so slow to open programs compared to Windows?

Example: iCal on a mac mini takes 12 seconds to load. System preferences takes like 20. etc.

It just seems like apps load so much faster in Windows. I have Windows and Linux installed on my laptop and Firefox and Thunderbird seem to load ~5 seconds quicker in Windows.

Its not just one or two apps. It seems like everything is kinda laggy on a Mac, or in Linux. After switching back to Windows it seems snappy.

The Mac Mini has a slow hard drive (4200 rpms) as well as being memory starved (256 or 512MB RAM). You can increase the Mini's performance by replacing the drive with a faster internal unit or by using a USB or Firewire external hard drive. Would that make it as fast as Windows? Hard to say, but a worthy upgrade none-the-less.

As for Windows/Linux, Windows' registry does make things much speedier and Linux doesn't have an equivalent (and likely never will). Gnome has a similar registry, but since it doesn't control the entire OS like Windows' does, it only has so much of an impact. KDE also preloads some apps for a speed boost, but usually only apps that are part of the desktop suite (eg, konqueror, but not firefox).

Most of the apps in Linux store their configs in text files located in various directories (/home, /etc, etc). Accessing various text files scattered about the filesystem takes time and depends greatly on the seek speed of the hard drive. That is why the speed crown goes to Windows (but usually only for initially starting the apps).

While the Windows Registry does make for speedier startups, it gets bloated over time (and slows down), and it can get corrupted enough to totally wreck the OS.


EDIT>> Added link
 

imported_Phil

Diamond Member
Feb 10, 2001
9,837
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0
Actually, I do know what he means about Linux applications - I notice that too. I found that Suse 9.2 on a regular Centrino laptop wasn't caching much stuff, even with 512Mb RAM. Opening the System Preferences doo-dah would take a good few seconds each time. :confused:

Windows does just feel "snappier" at times.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
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I don't know why you guys have issues, it takes no time for most of my *nix applications to start up.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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The only things that I notice taking more than a second or two to start on my Linux boxes are really large things like firefox. And then, I don't really care. App startup speed is minor, the benfits of running Linux far outweigh the cons. That and I never shut my desktop down so I only have to start the apps whenever I reboot and on my notebook I use swsusp2.
 

thirdlegstump

Banned
Feb 12, 2001
8,713
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That's because Macs are inherently SLOW and cannot even begin to compare with a well equipped/maintained Windows box. It's also the FEEL that really counts. Macs just don't have the SNAP and BITE Windows have which is extremely important when you're in a snappy mood and things just don't go as fast as your patience allows. Even the mouse responce in MacOS 9/X feels laggy although smoother than Windows. I got tired of my Mac evangelistic days realizing how much of a hypocrite I was. I still have 2 iMacs though.
 

imported_Phil

Diamond Member
Feb 10, 2001
9,837
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Originally posted by: deathkoba
That's because Macs are inherently SLOW and cannot even begin to compare with a well equipped/maintained Windows box. It's also the FEEL that really counts. Macs just don't have the SNAP and BITE Windows have which is extremely important when you're in a snappy mood and things just don't go as fast as your patience allows. Even the mouse responce in MacOS 9/X feels laggy although smoother than Windows. I got tired of my Mac evangelistic days realizing how much of a hypocrite I was. I still have 2 iMacs though.

QFT.
 

thirdlegstump

Banned
Feb 12, 2001
8,713
0
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Originally posted by: Phil
Originally posted by: deathkoba
That's because Macs are inherently SLOW and cannot even begin to compare with a well equipped/maintained Windows box. It's also the FEEL that really counts. Macs just don't have the SNAP and BITE Windows have which is extremely important when you're in a snappy mood and things just don't go as fast as your patience allows. Even the mouse responce in MacOS 9/X feels laggy although smoother than Windows. I got tired of my Mac evangelistic days realizing how much of a hypocrite I was. I still have 2 iMacs though.

QFT.

Damn straight.
 

fr

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
6,408
2
81
I haven't used a Mac in 5 years, but Jobs' Mac during the WWDC seemed pretty fast. It was a P4 3.6GHz with a couple GB of RAM I think.
 

duragezic

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
11,234
4
81
Originally posted by: drag
Well macs are just plane slower is many respects.

In Linux I know for things like Gnome most of the startup time is the computer looking for and accessing files on the disk.

For instance you have all your user preferences stored in your home directory. These reside in .filename and .directoryname files and directories.

The . before the name makes them hidden.

So when you start up a new app, it looks for those files. Then if they don't find them then it makes all new preferences for itself by ready system defaults setup by whoever made the things.

And thats just one thing they do. Many apps try to find and access a few hundred small files in various locations and although it's small files it does take time because disk access is the slowest possible thing in your computer.

In Windows, buy comparision, all the information is stored in the registry.

There are trade offs. If I mess up my GUI enviroment I can just delete (after backing it up to a seperate directory, of course!) my .file associated with the messed up app it gets set back to defaults or If I have a home directory on a remote file server then the settings are the same were ever I go.

With Windows it's easier to write big system configuration utilities and access to configs is much quicker.

Other applications are just plain SLOW. Like OpenOffice for example. That thing is bloatware and takes forever to load up... but it's fairly fast and nice to use once it's running.

Another thing why it seems that Linux stuff takes a while to load up is because in Windows the system loads much of the libraries and code as it boots up and keeps that stuff in memory.

Both Linux and Windows use software libraries. These software libraries are in the form of .so files in linux and .dll files in Windows. The contain code and functions that can get loaded dynamicly up into applications so that application writers can save themselves the effort of having to re-write every little thing and it saves memory. These things form part of what is called a 'API' or application programming interface.

Windows is very complex, and Linux is relatively simple in comparision.

However windows is much more unified developement. So when Windows loads up most of the system libraries are pre-cached and loaded and all that.

That's why things like IE seem to be so small in Windows compared to Firefox sometimes. IE just uses buil-in windows stuff while Firefox/Mozilla loads up it's own stuff.

In Linux you have two major source of application libraries for GUI applications.

One is the GTK+ library, which is associated with Gnome and the other is the KDE stuff with mainly QT as the GUI library.

Gnome and KDE each have their own whole set of dependancies and have their own set of background applications that need to be running to support them.

For instance Gnome has gconfd to help manage system configurations. KDE has the artsd sound deamon for it's desktop.

So if your using a GTK app in KDE you have to load up not only all of the KDE libraries and the kde support apps, you have to also load up part of the GTK stuff to get the app to run.

All of this takes time to read from the disk.

Other the otherhand when I am using Gnome and have to run a KDE app it has to load up artsd and a bunch of other stuff, and have a bunch of errors (that don't realy matter to the actual app) because other KDE stuff isn't running.

That's why Linux is much more memory sensitive then Windows.

With Windows CPU speed matters more, but with Linux memory matters more.

So you can reduce the resource draw by Linux on your system by sticking to KDE apps in KDE and Gnome/GTK apps in Gnome.

Or using minimalist enviroments.

The plus side for Linux is that having this background stuff going on doesn't realy affect your system speed. Linux has very good scedualing capabilities and very good memory management so that when I run games it's not very important to have all this stuff turned off to run fast. Most of the time if your not using a app it doesn't use CPU time even when it's open. It's only a problem with stuff that has animations and such.

The other issue with having stuff in the background is that sound servers like artsd can seize control of your card and not allow other apps to access it if your sound card doesnt' support hardware mixing. (there are ways of setting up software mixing in Linux, but most of it's not setup by default. In windows your always using software mixing, I beleive, unless your using special drivers like asio or whatever)

Often I play games like ETF on one X server in single screen mode (alt-ctl-F8) but have my browser and command line irc stuff open in the dual screen mode on a different X server (alt-ctl-F8). As long as I don't have pages with flash animation on it doesn't have any effect on refresh rate as I play the actual game. This is something you can't do in Windows because Windows only allows one gui enviroment at a time.

I have a gig of ram though.

The only real downside is just the long load up times. most of that is just due to disk access. You can reduce disk access by having lots of memory and/or only using apps associated with your current enviroment.
/thread

I agree with the OP though. A lot of applications load faster in Windows for me, probably due to things that drag explained.
 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
6,813
1
0
Depending on linux distro, prelinking libraries can help. It reduced the gnome loadtime on my crappy laptop significantly.


But Nothinman had it right, I don't run linux for application startup speeds.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Others have covered the startup speeds, though I'll say that for any modern computer the two things that will affect it the most are HD speed and RAM.
As for GUI responsiveness, in my experience GTK is much more slugish than QT on anything but top end hardware, and as Drag mentioned, Gnome(default for Redhat/Fedora among others) uses GTK, while KDE(Default for Mandrake or whatever it's called today, SuSE, and others) uses QT.
 

Megatomic

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
20,127
6
81
I just installed OpenOffice 1.1.4 last night on my Kubuntu build (see laptop link in my sig). It takes over a minute to open up Writer or Calc. That's not insignificant by far. I thought I had done it right by integrating it with KDE.

What can I do to fix this? I need it to open faster and here's why: I'm a long time windows junkie but I want to learn to use linux and to like using it. But if I have to sit and wait for over a minute for my apps to open I'm likely to rather open up the equivalent MS Office app to "speed up the process" so I can do my work and get back to having some fun. This is counterproductive to my goals of course. :(

Help.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: Megatomic
I just installed OpenOffice 1.1.4 last night on my Kubuntu build (see laptop link in my sig). It takes over a minute to open up Writer or Calc. That's not insignificant by far. I thought I had done it right by integrating it with KDE.

What can I do to fix this? I need it to open faster and here's why: I'm a long time windows junkie but I want to learn to use linux and to like using it. But if I have to sit and wait for over a minute for my apps to open I'm likely to rather open up the equivalent MS Office app to "speed up the process" so I can do my work and get back to having some fun. This is counterproductive to my goals of course. :(

Help.

Try Koffice.
 

Megatomic

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
20,127
6
81
Actually I'm kind of embarassed right now. Last night, when I installed Open Office, it did take a long time to load up any of the component apps. But just now I booted up my laptop and opened up Writer. It took all of 10 seconds. :eek:

I guess it needed a reboot. :)

And n0c, what office application suite do you use? You seem to not like Open Office.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: Megatomic
Actually I'm kind of embarassed right now. Last night, when I installed Open Office, it did take a long time to load up any of the component apps. But just now I booted up my laptop and opened up Writer. It took all of 10 seconds. :eek:

I guess it needed a reboot. :)

And n0c, what office application suite do you use? You seem to not like Open Office.

I don't. I use word on Mac OS X. If I can, I use KWord. It's quick. If I have to, I have a license for Office on Windows.