Why AIG got billions and GM got nothing...

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GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
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Here is another opinion on this issue taken from here:

We should also remember that these same states get far more from the federal govt than they pay in:

Alabama: $1.66 for every $1 paid
South Carolina: $1.35 for every $1 paid
Mississippi: $2.02 for every $1 paid
Tennessee: $1.27

By contrast Michigan received $0.92

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/22685.html

So in essence these states are using federal taxpayer money to give free subsidies to the auto plants in their states, yet refuse to agree to a loan to the big three (mainly) in a state which is a net donor to the US treasury?

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Subsidies for Foreign Car Makers and the Fall of Detroit?s ?Big Three?

By Brigitte L. Nacos
Senator Richard Shelby (R-Alabama) and Representative J. Gresham Barrett (R-South Carolina) who have spearheaded the attacks against a rescue package for Detroit car makers, claim to fight against government interference in the free market. Barrett, whose district sits next to a BMW plant, warned, ?We're not supposed to pick winners and losers and micromanage companies.? And according to Shelby, American car companies ?build the wrong stuff.? He characterized General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler as ?dinosaurs? and suggested that ?we should let them go.?

Ironically, a major reason for the predicament of the one-time ?Big Three? is the advantage of foreign car makers vis-à-vis domestic companies on the far from level playing field. A few week ago, United Autoworkers president Ron Gettelfinger said in a press conference that since 1992 foreign car makers received more than $3 billion in incentives to locate their plants in particular states and communities. Singling out the state of Alabama, the union leader said:

?We have Hyundai Motor Company that got $252 million in incentives. Toyota there got $29 million in incentives. Honda, $158 million and Mercedes $253 million in incentives. It just seems odd to us that we can help the financial institutions in this country and that we can offer incentives to our competitors to come here and compete against us but at the same time, we are willing to walk away from an industry that is the backbone of our economy.

And while I read these figures to you, which are the actual figures that we have been able to dig up, I want to go to one particular story and that is the plant in Mercedes, the Mercedes plant in Alabama.

As it turned out, as I said Alabama offered $253 million but the state offered to train the workers, clear and improve the sites, upgrade the utilities, buy 2,500 vehicles and it is estimated that that incentive package totaled somewhere around $175,000 per employee to create those jobs there. And on top of this, that state gave this automaker a large parcel of land-around $250-$300 million dollars.?

That is only part of the story. Whereas the U.S. companies are burdened with legacy costs, namely pensions and health care for retirees, foreign newcomers are free of such obligations. Like other industries in the South, car plants have typically a non-union labor force. The states that have proven particularly attractive for foreign companies, namely, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee and South Carolina, are so-called right-to-work states in which fewer employees cannot be forced to join a union even if they work in a unionized plant.

The claim that the American automobile industry builds ?the wrong stuff? may have been justified years ago, but is not true today. A car built in one of GM?s German Opel plants was selected as Europe?s 2008 car of the year just beating out a Ford car, also manufactured in Germany. While these two models are not sold in the U.S., GM and Ford in particular offer today several models that are as good as or better than comparable foreign cars. Nobody seems to notice?perhaps, because the media pay far more attention to the cars made by foreign companies

Last night, the House voted in favor of a $14 billion loan for American car makers?a rather modest sum in comparison to the $700 billion approved to rescue financial institutions. Or think of the $10 billion a month the U.S. continues to spend for its role in Iraq. The House majority did the right thing. Senator Shelby and other Republicans in the Senate who may kill the loan in the upper congressional chamber are wrong; they are content to let the American car industry die and leave the field to German, Japanese, and South Korean firms. There are certain basic industries?the steel and car sector among them--that should always have some American-owned production capabilities. If Shelby and other opponents of the Detroit rescue initiative do not care about the millions of jobs at stake, they should think of possible implications for America?s national security.

To be sure, financial aid for the one-time ?Big Three? among car producers must be tied to a fundamental restructuring of these companies and their mission; they must be pushed to tap into America?s talent for innovation to produce cars for the future.

Yesterday, Thomas Friedman wrote an interesting column about a revolutionary electric car network concept by the California based company Better Place. As Friedman wrote, ?Just last week, the company, based in Palo Alto, Calif., announced a partnership with the state of Hawaii to road test its business plan there after already inking similar deals with Israel, Australia, the San Francisco Bay area and, yes, Denmark. The Better Place electric car charging system involves generating electrons from as much renewable energy ? such as wind and solar ? as possible and then feeding those clean electrons into a national electric car charging infrastructure. ..?

Yes, Detroit?s car producers need to change more than they have in the last ten or so years. But Washington must throw them a life-line before it is too late.

P.S. Today, by speaking out against the life-line for Detroit, Senate Republican leader,Mitch McConnell (Republican of Kentucky) seemed to have killed the bill that passed the house yesterday and had the support of President Bush. It should be noted that Toyota builds cars in Kentucky. If one, two, or all three American car makers go down the drain, foreign car companies in Kentucky and Alabama, and elsewhere will gain marketshare. Is that what the McConnells and Shelbys aim for besides busting a labor union?


 

wwswimming

Banned
Jan 21, 2006
3,695
1
0
part of World War 2 history is the use of insurance company information as a
military asset. who knew where all the roads & bridges & buildings were ?
the people who insured them.

this practice continued during the Cold War, and AIG played a role here.
they had a worldwide business, and those world-wide contacts came in very
handy during the Cold War.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Originally posted by: Xellos2099
Originally posted by: boomerang
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: Xellos2099
UAW stuck the lifeblood out of the company which are barely hanging. Remember, it WAS UAW that rejected senator propose on paycut and etc, thus the bailout fail. the CEO are willing to go with 1 dollar wage so why can't UAW be more considerate of their company situation. After all, if they file for chapter 11 or 7, it is bye bye UAW.
Everyone should work for $1 a year at the Big-3.
Just think of the benefits to the nation if everyone worked for that wage for a year. Be a trend setter and lead by example!

I am not saying they should get pay 1 dollar a hour, but if the CEO are willing to take serious paycut, why couldn't the union worker do the same?

The CEO of GM could work for 13 years @ $1/year and get his regular pay on the 14th year. He would still make more than the CEO of Toyota. THe whole culture of the U.S. auto industry needs a kick in the ass.
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
Originally posted by: boomerang

I believe that wanting to put 2 to 3 million people in this country out of work solely to bust the union is most certainly not in the best interests of the country as a whole. I'd like to know what benefits you feel the country will reap by this happening.

I personally believe that this whole "putting 2 to 3 million people out of work" thing is fear mongering by the labor friendly democrats. It will get worse, certainly, but not the gloom and doom some people want us to believe in. Chapter 11 reorganization and then loan money to them is the best way to go. Maybe the feds can provide loans to the suppliers instead.

Doesn't matter, I'm registered in a CA district where my rep most certainly voted for the bailout and both of my senators also did.
 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Doesn't matter, I'm registered in a CA district where my rep most certainly voted for the bailout and both of my senators also did.

Good.


:D

 

MikeyLSU

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2005
2,747
0
71
Originally posted by: boomerang
The jobs bank is over, it's history. I've never understood the mindset of folks that cant let the past go. The only thing we have in this life that we can count on is the moment we are in. The future is uncertain, but we can have hope for that, The past is over and done with and can't be changed.



wrong, the job bank is still living right now, it has plans to be gone by 2010. So why couldn't they get rid of it now? Because the UAW was not willing. Don't paint me a sob story about them. I hope they go bankrupt and the UAW no longer exists. Don't bailout a failing company, there is a reason they are failing.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
Originally posted by: MikeyLSU
Originally posted by: boomerang
The jobs bank is over, it's history. I've never understood the mindset of folks that cant let the past go. The only thing we have in this life that we can count on is the moment we are in. The future is uncertain, but we can have hope for that, The past is over and done with and can't be changed.



wrong, the job bank is still living right now, it has plans to be gone by 2010. So why couldn't they get rid of it now? Because the UAW was not willing. Don't paint me a sob story about them. I hope they go bankrupt and the UAW no longer exists. Don't bailout a failing company, there is a reason they are failing.


Do you even pay attention to the news.? The UAW has agreed to eliminate the jobs bank. Grow up and start acting like an adult. Make a real argument with some substance behind it.

Quit listening to what your tenured professor is ramming down your throat. Grow a pair and learn to think independently.

Make some arguments with some substance to them instead of regurgitating the same old shit over and over. This whining and bellyaching because auto workers make more than you will is getting old.

 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
UAW just needed to make the concessions that Republican senators asked for and they would've gotten the bailout.

That's not necessarily true. Repubs' motivations aren't entirely clear, other than the desire to engage in some posturing and face-saving after their miserable performance of the last 8 years...

Right now, they need some political capital, and posing as fiscal responsibility types give 'em just a little bit of that...

Republicans motive are pretty clear. See my post earlier in this thread. I repeat part here - the R memo which was sent to Senate Republicans.

Its a shot at organized labor. That is the prime motive.

GOP: 'Action Alert - Auto Bailout'
Countdown has obtained a memo entitled "Action Alert - Auto Bailout," and sent Wednesday at 9:12am, to Senate Republicans. The names of the sender(s) and recipient(s) have been redacted in the copy Countdown obtained. The Los Angeles Times reported that it was circulated among Senate Republicans. The brief memo outlines internal political strategy on the bailout, including the view that defeating the bailout represents a "first shot against organized labor." Senate Republicans blocked passage of the bailout late Thursday night, over its insistence on an immediate union pay cut. See the entire memo after the jump.

From:

Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:12 AM

To:

Subject: Action Alert -- Auto Bailout

Today at noon, Senators Ensign, Shelby, Coburn and DeMint will hold a press conference in the Senate Radio/TV Gallery. They would appreciate our support through messaging and attending the press conference, if possible. The message they want us to deliver is:

1. This is the democrats first opportunity to payoff organized labor after the election. This is a precursor to card check and other items. Republicans should stand firm and take their first shot against organized labor, instead of taking their first blow from it.

2. This rush to judgment is the same thing that happened with the TARP. Members did not have an opportunity to read or digest the legislation and therefore could not understand the consequences of it. We should not rush to pass this because Detroit says the sky is falling.

The sooner you can have press releases and documents like this in the hands of members and the press, the better. Please contact me if you need additional information. Again, the hardest thing for the democrats to do is get 60 votes. If we can hold the Republicans, we can beat this.

I'm not sure that repubs, particularly the leadership, actually deal with each other honestly, Grounded Sailor. And taking a shot at Labor and trying to gain political capital from their base are pretty much the same thing, anyway, as we've seen in some of the replies in this thread.

The whole of the Right, from the leadership on down, has their ideological blinders screwed down tight, anyway- they simply can't fathom the fact that everything and everybody they believe in so fervently, their whole philosophy, has created this fiscal and financial catastrophe. They're in full blown denial.

So they'll cling even more tightly to what they believe in, attempt to force their will on the rest of us, even though it's a losing proposition for the nation and ultimately for them, as well. They can't see that, of course. They won't. They refuse.

Let's face it- bailing out the automakers is nothing compared to the bailout of the financials- really a very, very small % of what the Treasury and the FRB have already committed. In terms of employment and economic activity, bankruptcy by any of the big 3 would have a very large economic impact...

But that doesn't matter to the senatorial repubs, apparently. They'd rather pay unemployment benefits than union wages, ehh?
 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Originally posted by: Jhhnn

I'm not sure that repubs, particularly the leadership, actually deal with each other honestly, Grounded Sailor. And taking a shot at Labor and trying to gain political capital from their base are pretty much the same thing, anyway, as we've seen in some of the replies in this thread.

The whole of the Right, from the leadership on down, has their ideological blinders screwed down tight, anyway- they simply can't fathom the fact that everything and everybody they believe in so fervently, their whole philosophy, has created this fiscal and financial catastrophe. They're in full blown denial.

So they'll cling even more tightly to what they believe in, attempt to force their will on the rest of us, even though it's a losing proposition for the nation and ultimately for them, as well. They can't see that, of course. They won't. They refuse.

Let's face it- bailing out the automakers is nothing compared to the bailout of the financials- really a very, very small % of what the Treasury and the FRB have already committed. In terms of employment and economic activity, bankruptcy by any of the big 3 would have a very large economic impact...

But that doesn't matter to the senatorial repubs, apparently. They'd rather pay unemployment benefits than union wages, ehh?

The irony is that these senators come from states with the lowest per capita incomes!

I don't know about the denial bit, but they certainly are trying to spin it every which way to justify their philosophy.

It's like a head in the sand attitude. They refuse to see the much wider impact on American lives if the big three fail as opposed to the financial bailout. The best argument for the loan to the big three is that it is the most cost effective jobs program that the government can run in the short term right now. Spending on infrastructure, while much needed, will take months to create jobs to spread the stimulus. However, keeping the Big three afloat will keep hundreds of current thousands of jobs in place quickly and easily.

And I would like to reiterate that we should not lose sight that the auto companies are asking for a loan, not a bailout.





 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,667
8,210
136
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
UAW just needed to make the concessions that Republican senators asked for and they would've gotten the bailout.

Thank God for a filibuster proof senate (in the next one). Fvck the UAW. If the Japanese can build good cars with US labor (Honda has plants in Ohio), sell the Big 3 to them, and kill UAW.

the repubs saw this as an oppurtunity to take down one of the largest unions in america, and tried to do it... they would rather fuck the country than let the UAW live.

UAW needs to die, period. I was a grader during my undergrad years and I apparently had to join them and pay UAW dues.

You know, I don't hate all unions. I was watching this CNBC thing on American Airlines and they were showing a section of maintenance. Those are most definitely unionized labor, and I don't remember when was the last time AA had a crash because of maintenance faults. You don't hear about job banks from these guys like the UAW has with the Big 3, and they want a fvcking bailout? American cars have gotten such bad reputations at least partially because of UAW workers.

American workers proved that good cars can be built without a union, and it has worked for many foreign manufacturers. If we need to reform the auto industry, ditching the management isn't enough, the UAW is also a part of the problem. Not taking away influence/killing UAW as part of the rescue package is not enough, and I'm glad that there are sane senators that put American taxpayers interest first before the interest of a union consists of lazy job bank "workers".



I agree with some parts of your commentary. However, it must be remembered that the wages of those non-union members in the automotive industry are directly related to the wage levels that the unionized members of the industry have negotiated for themselves. Without union wages setting a benchmark for non-union auto manufacturers, the wage levels at non-union shops have the potential to drop with no bottom in sight. Especially so with the economy being in a shambles as it is.

Wages and benefits that have been attained through hard bargaining over these many years by unionized shops have benefitted those employees of non-union competitors as their wage scales and the talent those wages attract have been lifted and bouyed by the wages and benefits fought for in blood by unionized labor.

Yet, these very same union members who have directly and indirectly improved the quality of life for all of the middle/lower class are being chastized merely for chasing the American Dream, just the same as everyone else is.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Originally posted by: Xellos2099
I won't believe the news all that much if I am you. After all, most news network support democrat, democrat support Union and buy vote with OPM (Other People's Money). I mean, Obama want to made union vote an open ballot a law instead of close ballot that we have now.

link plz or stfu.....