Why Afghanistan Beat Russia

[GasX]

1. They are a hard committed people who will never give up.
2. The Afghani terrain is not conducive to invasion and occupation
3. The U.S. government supplied them with approximately $5 billion in weaponry.

I don't think that their committment to the cause will outlast their ammo.

I would hope that Bush's comprehensive plan to wipe out terrorism includes shutting down the black market for arms.

 

[Yzzim]

<< 1. They are a hard committed people who will never give up.
2. The Afghani terrain is not conducive to invasion and occupation
3. The U.S. government supplied them with approximately $5 billion in weaponry. >>



Similar reason we lost in Vietnam. Except the Russian government was supplying the money.
I think we learned our lesson.

 

[Tates]

The Afhgans were comitted, the Russians weren't. Simple.

The lessons from that and Vietnam will be brought to bear this time.

 

[StageLeft]

It won't be a videogame like the gulf war was.

 

[GasX]

<< The Afhgans were comitted, the Russians weren't. Simple. >>


Read above - it wasn't that simple. $5 billion and training helped a lot. Don't get me wrong I am not advocating underestimating the Afghanis. I am actually not even advocating attacking, but given the likelihood, I see it as a natural discussion.



<< The lessons from that and Vietnam will be brought to bear this time. >>


I sure hope so.

 

[rudder]

Stinger missiles. very effective. It made it difficult for the Soviet air force to give support to the ground troops. These missiles were shoulder launched and very mobile and certainly helped turn the tide of the war.

 

[Inglix]

When Russia "gained control" and was occupying most of Afghanistan they were losing 5,000 men a week! That's 15 times our total military losses in the Gulf war every week!

 

[gopunk]

well i'm no expert, but i've heard people say that a lot of people there don't support the taliban. obviously if we start attacking the citizens, they'll get pissed, but if we just go for the government they dislike (and don't mistreat the citizens), then are they going to put up a fight?

 

[Pocatello]

I don't think we will try to control Afghanistan. This country is perfect for setting up ambush. Russian convoys were vulnerable, since roads were few, and high grounds were often controlled by guerillas.
Russians airborne troops were very effective against the Afghan rebels. The Stinger missiles were not very effective when the Russians developed countermeasures against heat seeking missiles, but Gorbachev had decided to pull troops out.

 

[HowardStern]

Your also forgetting that Russians fight about as well as the Iraqi army did during the Gulf War. We'll do much better. You'll see.

 

[GasX]

<< Your also forgetting that Russians fight about as well as the Iraqi army did during the Gulf War. We'll do much better. You'll see. >>


You base this on what evidence?

I'll grant you that a motivated force is a stronger one and ours would be motivated, but...

 

[StageLeft]

damn. I can't find the link now but apparently Afghanistan has not been conquered in 500 years. It is "Nature's gift to guerilla warfare.". The british in the last century (I think) and Russians more recently found out how awful it is. With all the mountains and passes it is very easy to defend.

If the US decides to launch a full scale ground assault it is going to be UGLY. I mean very ugly. This won't be a gulfwar walkover. There will be terrible battles and massive casulaties on each side. I feel support for the conflict will wane when Americans see how many troops they're sending to their deaths. I don't know what to do about that, but its not going to be fun. Mark my words!

 

[desy]

the Russian soldier wasn't very motivated. Occupying a land that you could care less about compared to somebody who is defending his backyard is two totaly different things.
The gov't should be removed and allow a political vacuum to take place and see what fills the void. If the gov't is terrorist freindly create the vacuum again and again and again.
The problem with doing this in the past is that support has been given to whomever fills the gap in South America many dictators were propped up who treated the avg citizen worse than the old regieme. which is why communism etc kept rearing its ugly head and anit US sentiment.
Clean house and step back. Let them solve their own politicial problems.
Wheather it takes invasion to remove the corrupt gov't or assaination keep going until a real democracy steps in.

 

[StageLeft]

Yeah a vacuum is a good idea, but uprooting the taliban isn't gonna be easy.

 

[Miramonti]

our military support didn't hurt, training and arms.

 

[shifrbv]

"but uprooting the taliban isn't gonna be easy"

Especially when they've already sent the junior Taliban members out of the country.

 

[Amused]

<< Your also forgetting that Russians fight about as well as the Iraqi army did during the Gulf War. We'll do much better. You'll see. >>



Agreed. The soldiers of the USSR were underpaid, had extremely low morale, and the USSR did not throw it's full weight into the conflict.

We learned our lesson in Vietnam. We wont make that same mistake again.

Additionally, the USSR was extremely brutal in it's treatment of the average Afghan citizen. The US would immediately start offering humanitarian aid, and these folks would be eating better than they have in years, and getting real medical care for the first time in over a decade.

As for the peace-nics out there, economic sanctions are worthless and cause more harm to innocent civilians than an actual war. We have Iraq and Cuba as excellent examples of this.

 

[ttn1]

We could just go in and level the terrain with a massive conventional bombing campaign. That would make it harder to hide. Of course, there wouldn't be anything or anyone left to hide.

Terrorism/Guerilla warfare is how the Afghans drove Russia out. Afghans were taught by the best "teachers" the US had to offer.

ttn1

 

[Frglss]

Russia was also trying to take over, hold and occupy. They mistakingly believed that by holding the capital, they could hold the country.

 

[StageLeft]

We learned our lesson in Vietnam. We wont make that same mistake again.

Not sure how avoidable it is. If the afghanis are in mountains hiding out all over the place, what are you going to do? The place is the size of texas.

 

[desy]

Amused, Iraq sanctions there are estimated to have caused the death of 150,000 iraqi children, they didn't blame Saddam just the US
You didn't meantion Croatia/Serbia same deal they just fell further as sanctions heightened the misery.
It is going to be painful, lots will die as in any war. It doesn't mean its not worth doing lauching cruise missles did nothing as Clintons action proved. Gonna have to get dirty on this I'm afraid.

 

[gopunk]

while i support us going in and taking care of whoever is responsible... i'm just worried about what's going to happen. i mean, we went into somalia with the intention of removing government officials and helping the people, but that turned pretty ugly. i don't think things are going to be as easy and clear cut as we make them out to be here.

 

[Amused]

<< We learned our lesson in Vietnam. We wont make that same mistake again.

Not sure how avoidable it is. If the afghanis are in mountains hiding out all over the place, what are you going to do? The place is the size of texas. >>



You rout them out, and don't let them back in.

This was our major failure in Vietnam. We would take ground, but not secure it. Like I said, we learned that lesson the hard way.

Also, the North Vietnamese had a never ending supply of arms and food. The Afghans do not. They don't have China or the USSR to support them.

 

[Amused]

<< while i support us going in and taking care of whoever is responsible... i'm just worried about what's going to happen. i mean, we went into somalia with the intention of removing government officials and helping the people, but that turned pretty ugly. i don't think things are going to be as easy and clear cut as we make them out to be here. >>



Somolia failed because there was no objective, and we turned a humanitarian mission into a "police action" to get the warlords. The nation also did not have the stomach for the escalation needed to win that conflict.

I'd say we have the resolve now.

 

[StageLeft]

Resolve or not its going to be very ugly.