Who's in the Army Now?

BBond

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Oct 3, 2004
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Two years and four months after Bush invaded Iraq, the "insurgency" is still as strong as ever. Some say it is growing. The U.S. is still trying to train Iraqis to take over security so we can start drawing down the force in Iraq.

It's now clear to all but the most ardent Bush supporters that Bush's unprovoked Iraq invasion was unnecessary. But Bush didn't let the facts stop him. He dropped the ball in Afghanistan and invaded Iraq anyway.

So, with standing armed forces of over one million, why didn't Bush send in adequate troops to get the job done? Since the troops strength obviously below the number needed to quell the "insurgency", why doesn't Bush send in more troops now?

The answers are below. It seems our one million man standing army isn't really a one million man standing army when you look at the real numbers.

Pentagon brass tried to explain this to Bush before he made his blunder but Bush was just too arrogant and/or stupid to listen. Rumsfeld repeated his lie about plans to send 400,000 to 500,000 troops to Iraq. Where did Rumsfeld expect to find those troops back then when they still don't exist today?

For you doubters, read on. Here is the truth about Americas ground force capabilities and, barring some sort of miracle, why Bush can't fix the mess he created in Iraq.

Who's in the Army Now?

Why we can't send more troops to Iraq.

By Fred Kaplan
Posted Thursday, June 30, 2005, at 3:21 PM PT

As we're often told, 1 million men and women serve in the U.S. Army. So, why is it such a strain to keep a mere 150,000 in Iraq? What are the other 850,000 doing? Why can't some of them be sent there, too? And if they really can't be spared from their current tasks, what broader inferences can be drawn about America's military policy? Should we bring back the draft to provide more boots on the ground?or, alternatively, scale back our global ambitions so fewer boots will be needed?

First, let's look at those million soldiers. Who are they? The Web site GlobalSecurity.org has a pie chart breaking them down into categories. It turns out that fewer than 40 percent of them?391,460?are combat soldiers. And fewer than 40 percent of those combat soldiers?149,406?are members of the active armed forces. (The rest are in the National Guard and Army Reserve.)

The others are support and logistics troops?50,252 in transportation, 37,763 in medical, 34,270 in the training and doctrine command, and so forth. The distinctions are not ironclad. Transportation soldiers, for example, get shot at and shoot back. Still, however you define it, a strikingly small percentage of the million-man Army consists of active soldiers whose principal job is to fight.

These combat soldiers are organized into brigades (between 3,000 and 4,000 in each). The Army now has 37 active combat brigades ? 10 in Iraq, one in South Korea (another one, which used to be there, is now among the 10 in Iraq), and one in Afghanistan. That's 12 brigades deployed to hot spots. What about the other 25?

* Nine have recently returned from Iraq or Afghanistan (the rule is 12 months out, 12 months back home?though some units have seen their overseas tours stretched);
* 15 are in training;
* one is reconstituting around the new Stryker combat vehicle.

It would be possible to put a few more of these brigades on the battlefield. Soldiers could be given less training and be allowed less time at their home bases. But the chiefs know that if they did that, they would soon have a disgruntled, ill-prepared Army?and a smaller Army, too, since such strains would torpedo recruitment and re-enlistment rates, which even now are falling well below target. (Soldiers and civilians might feel differently if the war in Iraq were truly a war of national survival or a titanic struggle of civilizations. During World War II, after all, millions were perfunctorily trained before shipping out to Europe or the Pacific, and they stayed there for years until the fighting was over. But the stakes of the present war are far less momentous.)

The fact is, the U.S. Army has substantially shrunk since the Cold War ended 15 years ago?to the point where it simply cannot fulfill the Bush administration's global dreams.

The Army is making some adjustments to fill the gap?mainly by restructuring its brigades so that each one has more combat troops and fewer support-and-service personnel. This process has been going on for a couple of years now. Once the process is complete, the Army will have 43 or possibly 48 combat brigades (in 2000, it had 33)?each brigade smaller but loaded with 20 percent to 30 percent more fighting power. (For more on this, click here.)

With this reorganization, the Army will be able to maintain its current level of troops in Iraq without having to rely so heavily on the Guard and Reserve. (According to an Army spokesman, the last time U.S. troops rotated into Iraq, they consisted of 10 brigades from the active Army and seven brigades from the reserves. The next rotation, later this year, will consist of 15 active brigades and just two from the reserves.)

John Pike, director of globalsecurity.org, describes the result of the restructuring this way: "We'll be able to fight the war we're fighting, indefinitely."

In short, it's a smart gap-filler, but little more. It won't allow George W. Bush to send more troops to Iraq or Afghanistan, much less to other countries that he might like to liberate.

So, how do we get more troops? A return to the draft? There are plenty of arguments for or against, but they're not worth the waste of bandwidth, because it's just not going to happen. Military commanders don't want a draft; they're happy to have, in the All-Volunteer Army, the best-educated, best-tempered, most easily trained soldiers in American history. Politicians don't want a draft, because they know it's the surest route to losing the next election; millions of supportive voters will turn into raging protesters if their little Johnny?or, worse yet, Janie?gets forced into battle.

Almost no one in the executive branch wants a draft, because it would instantly give every American family a stake in U.S. foreign policy. With a volunteer Army, issues of war and peace are almost abstract; only a tiny portion of the population is directly affected. With a draft, everybody's life is on the line?a turbulent state that can energize and unify a country under serious threat but tear the same country apart in a war of stalemate or dubious motive. President Bush could not possibly want the intense debate that even the prospect of a draft would inspire.

And yet, draft or no draft, the country is headed toward that debate. Does America want to be?can it be?the world's policeman, colossus, liberator, call it what you will? If so, with what resources? By itself or with allies? Through international law or by whim?

Whatever the answers, there is a potentially calamitous mismatch between the Bush administration's avowed intentions and its tangible means. They can print or borrow money to float the national debt. They can't clone or borrow soldiers to float an imperial army.


 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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The ignorance showed by the OP and the linked article is amazing.

Do you think all of the 150,000 troops on the ground are pure combat troops?

*shakes head*
 

BBond

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Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: Genx87
The ignorance showed by the OP and the linked article is amazing.

Do you think all of the 150,000 troops on the ground are pure combat troops?

*shakes head*

Why don't you enlighten us instead of just making unsupported comments? And take the time to actually read the piece first if you're going to comment on it.

The distinctions are not ironclad. Transportation soldiers, for example, get shot at and shoot back. Still, however you define it, a strikingly small percentage of the million-man Army consists of active soldiers whose principal job is to fight.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Genx87
The ignorance showed by the OP and the linked article is amazing.

Do you think all of the 150,000 troops on the ground are pure combat troops?

*shakes head*

Why don't you enlighten us instead of just making unsupported comments? And take the time to actually read the piece first if you're going to comment on it.

The distinctions are not ironclad. Transportation soldiers, for example, get shot at and shoot back. Still, however you define it, a strikingly small percentage of the million-man Army consists of active soldiers whose principal job is to fight.

The article is actually right about one thing. A small percentage of the army are actually combat troops. The numbers I have heard are usually about 30% of the division are your combat troops while the other 70% are support, logistics, and C&C.

So what are you suggesting? We redefine the army as combat only and lop off the other parts and not count them? Is the point of your tirade to point out how the military is structured?

I still think it is funny you thought we had 150,000 combat troops on the ground in Iraq. I would probably put that number closer to 50,000 with 100,000 as support ect. Sure the support troops will carry a weapon but they arent out actively engaging the enemy.

How do you think 1 million men eat btw?


 

Gunslinger08

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: Genx87
How do you think 1 million men eat btw?

Or get medical treatment. Or are organized and led. Or get moved from place to place. Or get their intelligence.
 

Ozoned

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Mar 22, 2004
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Originally posted by: Genx87


So what are you suggesting?
What he is suggesting is that:

'Bush lied, thousands died in Bushgods illegal and unjust war.'

Same old picture, just using different crayons.
 

irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
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Fact is, 7% of TOTAL AVAILABLE forces are in the Middle East at the moment - that includes Afghanistan. Total available forces include reserve and national guard - because well, they are available.

The only reason the left wants more troops is to give more name for CBS or NBC to read on the nightly news. They know that the only way to make this another Vietnam is to get Vietnam like death tolls. To this point, it has not happened, so they hard on the number of dead Iraqis with false and misleading numbers. Then they call for more soldiers - not because they actually want us to win the war faster, they want us to lose more men, and as a result LOSE the war faster.

The left has a single goal, lose the war in Iraq and try to pin it on Bush. A sad attempt at legacy destruction, since well, their last guy doesn't have a legacy, the Republican president also should not.

Childish, pathetic, and totally sad.
 

BBond

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Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Genx87


So what are you suggesting?
What he is suggesting is that:

'Bush lied, thousands died in Bushgods illegal and unjust war.'

Same old picture, just using different crayons.

When anyone screws up on the scale that Bush has screwed up they have to be held accountable. I'll keep reminding you of that fact. Bush is, after all, really big on the accountability thing, right?
 

Gunslinger08

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: irwincur
Fact is, 7% of TOTAL AVAILABLE forces are in the Middle East at the moment - that includes Afghanistan. Total available forces include reserve and national guard - because well, they are available.

With a strange proportion of those being from Virginia.. I think all but 1 unit in VA is currently deployed.. and they're being sent to Egypt next year.
 

BBond

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Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: irwincur
Fact is, 7% of TOTAL AVAILABLE forces are in the Middle East at the moment - that includes Afghanistan. Total available forces include reserve and national guard - because well, they are available.

I believe troop deployment is discussed in the piece. Do you disagree with these numbers?

These combat soldiers are organized into brigades (between 3,000 and 4,000 in each). The Army now has 37 active combat brigades ? 10 in Iraq, one in South Korea (another one, which used to be there, is now among the 10 in Iraq), and one in Afghanistan. That's 12 brigades deployed to hot spots. What about the other 25?

* Nine have recently returned from Iraq or Afghanistan (the rule is 12 months out, 12 months back home?though some units have seen their overseas tours stretched);
* 15 are in training;
* one is reconstituting around the new Stryker combat vehicle.
 

Gunslinger08

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
13,234
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Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Genx87


So what are you suggesting?
What he is suggesting is that:

'Bush lied, thousands died in Bushgods illegal and unjust war.'

Same old picture, just using different crayons.

When anyone screws up on the scale that Bush has screwed up they have to be held accountable. I'll keep reminding you of that fact. Bush is, after all, really big on the accountability thing, right?

Blame Canada.
 

Gunslinger08

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
13,234
2
81
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: irwincur
Fact is, 7% of TOTAL AVAILABLE forces are in the Middle East at the moment - that includes Afghanistan. Total available forces include reserve and national guard - because well, they are available.

I believe troop deployment is discussed in the piece. Do you disagree with these numbers?

These combat soldiers are organized into brigades (between 3,000 and 4,000 in each). The Army now has 37 active combat brigades ? 10 in Iraq, one in South Korea (another one, which used to be there, is now among the 10 in Iraq), and one in Afghanistan. That's 12 brigades deployed to hot spots. What about the other 25?

* Nine have recently returned from Iraq or Afghanistan (the rule is 12 months out, 12 months back home?though some units have seen their overseas tours stretched);
* 15 are in training;
* one is reconstituting around the new Stryker combat vehicle.

You are dumb and asking for a flaming. Those are only active combat brigades. You need to realize there is more to the armed forces than active combat brigades... like inactive combat brigades, medical brigades, etc.
 

Ozoned

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Mar 22, 2004
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Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Genx87


So what are you suggesting?
What he is suggesting is that:

'Bush lied, thousands died in Bushgods illegal and unjust war.'

Same old picture, just using different crayons.

When I think that anyone screws up on the scale that Bush has screwed up I think they have to be held accountable. I'll keep reminding you of my feelings. [snip] suggestive innuendo [/snip]?


Fixed. Heh heh.
 

irwincur

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Jul 8, 2002
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I believe troop deployment is discussed in the piece. Do you disagree with these numbers?

Yes, because that article only counts combat troops (of which probably 25,000 in Iraq actually are) and it does not include reserve and national guard numbers. And as we all know, there are plenty of reserve and guard troops over there.

You can't just pick and choose the numbers you want, twist the logic, then act like you are right. You need to look at total numbers, then figure out who is over there and what they are doing. Amazingly, there are also plenty of air force and navy guys over there at the moment doing land based work - as well as marines and army soldiers.

Not to mention, no matter what the job - every soldier is trained to fight and non combat brigades are routinely brought into battle. Heavy infantry forces are only the tip of the iceberg.
 

Ozoned

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Mar 22, 2004
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Virtually all military personnel receive quality combat training and can be transferred to units outside of their field of expertise with the stroke of a pen.

Another baffling thought is that despite the arguments that some present that our soldiers are nothing but targets, why would anyone want to put up 'more targets' than required to facilitate the basic duties required to complete the mission? Double edged sword...
 

EagleKeeper

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Oct 30, 2000
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Funny how poeple are complaining about Bush's handling of Iraq yet seem to forget that 40 years ago, the Dems were doing the same thing. The death toll then was much higher.

Selective memory?
 

BBond

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Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: irwincur
I believe troop deployment is discussed in the piece. Do you disagree with these numbers?

Yes, because that article only counts combat troops (of which probably 25,000 in Iraq actually are) and it does not include reserve and national guard numbers. And as we all know, there are plenty of reserve and guard troops over there.

You can't just pick and choose the numbers you want, twist the logic, then act like you are right. You need to look at total numbers, then figure out who is over there and what they are doing. Amazingly, there are also plenty of air force and navy guys over there at the moment doing land based work - as well as marines and army soldiers.

Not to mention, no matter what the job - every soldier is trained to fight and non combat brigades are routinely brought into battle. Heavy infantry forces are only the tip of the iceberg.

Did you miss this?

With this reorganization, the Army will be able to maintain its current level of troops in Iraq without having to rely so heavily on the Guard and Reserve. (According to an Army spokesman, the last time U.S. troops rotated into Iraq, they consisted of 10 brigades from the active Army and seven brigades from the reserves. The next rotation, later this year, will consist of 15 active brigades and just two from the reserves.)

And the link?

37 active combat brigades

 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
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I think that our military has done in incredible job, despite the shape that it was in when the current administration took office....
 

BBond

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Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Funny how poeple are complaining about Bush's handling of Iraq yet seem to forget that 40 years ago, the Dems were doing the same thing. The death toll then was much higher.

Selective memory?

And? The death toll really climbed under Nixon.

But check this out...

U.S. toll in Iraq over 500 -- Count matches Vietnam in 1965

It sounds like a re-run of what they're saying today. Only today there are 1,748 U.S. troops dead because
'Bush lied, thousands died in Bushgods illegal and unjust war.'
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: Ozoned
I think that our military has done in incredible job, despite the shape that it was in when the current administration took office....

....which was the result of the downsizing begun under Dick Cheney.
 

zendari

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May 27, 2005
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I don't see how the Dems blame Vietnam on Nixon when he was the one who started the downsizing after Johnson and Kennedys presidencies.

If Hillary gets elected in 2008 and the death toll climbs I doubt they'll do the same. :disgust:
 

irwincur

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Jul 8, 2002
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why would anyone want to put up 'more targets' than required to facilitate the basic duties required to complete the mission?

Clearly the left would. This has been behind their major push to get more soldiers on the ground. To them a high death toll is the only way they (and the Islamists) can win this war.

Did you miss this?

That does not give available numbers. Just tells how many they are using.