Whoa, I think something's really wrong with my '97 Mazda 626LX sedan

[Muse]

I hadn't owned a manual for about 13 years before my most recent purchase. It took about a week and a half before it was automatic (no pun intended) for me where I was no longer acutely aware that I was driving a manual.

I learned on my Mom's automatic but my first two cars were manual, for a total of about 10 years. So, yeah, I think I could get back into a manual pretty quick. Hey, it's got to be a little extra insurance against auto theft, I figure most thieves wouldn't be able to drive a manual. However, it does have an alarm system.

I still haven't moved the car since I parked it in my driveway before starting this thread back on Nov. 16, 2012. I started the engine just 1/2 hour ago to get it to operating temperature to measure the trany fluid level. It's at the top of the appropriate range on the dip stick.

I figure I'll take it to Oakland Mazda, they get mostly decent Yelp reviews and I figure they have to have a mechanic familiar with the car and its trany problems which is a good place to start. I'm gonna want to have a car again, preferably within a couple of weeks, but I'll survive without one.

If indeed I can only expect an automatic to last 60k (this one not even 25k!!!!), I think I better go for a manual.

 

[Muse]

I'm bring the car into Audi/Mazda of Oakland this morning for a flush/replacement of trany fluid. The first link posted here has a link to a site that recommends an expensive synthetic fluid for this car:

http://www.probe-mx6.com/maint.html#atx

It says: Redline MT90 GL-4 75w90 is found to work the best amongst Miata & 626/MX6/Probe owners.

I mentioned synthetic on the phone with the service chief and he said it's not necessary and expensive. I think it's around $9/quart. But I think it might make sense for this car which has a weak trany susceptible to early failure. I mentioned to the guy that I heard that this car is called the "60k transmission" like the Mazda tech guy said in this thread. The guy says (we're on the phone when this happened, I haven't met him yet), "I'll take your word for it." The way he said it I could tell he was playing his cards very close to the vest, it doesn't inspire confidence. Yelp is OK, mostly with the place except for one guy who said when he had a warranty repair done by them they tried to ding him for a ton of stuff that his mechanic said was unnecessary. I think I'll ask them to put in that Redline fluid, hopefully they have it or can get it. I'll be there in less than 2 hours.

He did say on the phone that it could be some things that didn't sound too serious, so I'm hopeful. I haven't put the car into gear since I got it home around 6 weeks ago. This morning I figure I should warm up the car for 10 minutes before leaving, figure my chances of making it there are better. Could be wrong.

 

[sontakke]

Excuse me, but that is Manual Transmission oil and I thought yours is an automatic.

 

[Muse]

Excuse me, but that is Manual Transmission oil and I thought yours is an automatic.

Oh, I didn't know. Should I ask for a synthetic automatic transmission oil?

 

[Muse]

Oh, I didn't know. Should I ask for a synthetic automatic transmission oil?

When I got there this morning I asked him about synthetic, he said it was around $5/qt more. I said I heard that the trany is under-engineered, runs hot and that synthetic oil is apt to make it last longer. He replied that that thinking is correct.

He said he had Castrol. I asked about Redline and he said they don't carry it but he thinks it's the best. I asked if he could get it and he said he'd try and let me know. Later he says it's $20 more for the job with Redline than Castrol:

$179 ordinary
$219 Castrol synth
$239 Redline synth

I said OK, let's make it Redline. It's taking them 1.5 hours to get it, then the mechanic has lunch. It'll be done in 3 hours from now. They gave me a ride home.

I have no idea if it's OK. I guess I'll call them now and ask them to take it for a test drive, don't know that that will/could reveal anything.

 

[sontakke]

It seems like it is too late for fluid change. You will have to extremely lucky to have your transmission working like before the incident. How many quarts of fluid is he changing? Is he also replacing the filter? Was the original fluid already smelling and had blackish color?

 

[LTC8K6]

Darn...I wanted to find out what would happen if you put 75W90 oil in an auto trans...

 

[Muse]

http://www.probe-mx6.com/maint.html#atx

It says: Redline MT90 GL-4 75w90 is found to work the best amongst Miata & 626/MX6/Probe owners.

Excuse me, but that is Manual Transmission oil and I thought yours is an automatic.

What they put in says:

RED LINE SYNTHETIC OIL
D4 ATF AUTOMATIC/MANUAL TRANSMISSION/TRANSAXLE FLUID
ALL-SYNTHETIC FORMULA

Don't know if it's a good/best choice, but after what sontakke said I wasn't going to ask them to put in the other stuff! I decided to just say use Red Line and let them decide what precisely to use. There was no sense of conflict going on.

 

[Muse]

It seems like it is too late for fluid change. You will have to extremely lucky to have your transmission working like before the incident. How many quarts of fluid is he changing? Is he also replacing the filter? Was the original fluid already smelling and had blackish color?

I don't know if they replaced the filter, I'll call and ask. That would be lame if they didn't, huh? Their invoice makes no mention of the filter, it only says "Transmission Service" and parts $144. He told me on the phone when I made the appointment several days ago it would require 14 quarts of fluid.

What was in there did not look black, in fact it looked pretty nice to me. It didn't smell burned either.

They took it for a test drive after doing whatever they did. The service manager told me that it tested fine. They said they tested a plethora of systems in the car and everything checked out fine. They gave me a sheet detailing that stuff. The total charges including tax was about $251.

Will it act OK? I don't know. I asked him if he thought that the incident I had was due to impurities in the fluid, particles, water? He said that's quite possible. He said again that the servo might have stuck. I asked him to explain this and he did. He said that a sticking servo might explain the incident.

The car had 12 more miles on it when I left than when I brought it in.

Edit: I just called and am told that there's no transmission filter in my car. The guy who did the work struck me as heads up.

The ~5 mile drive home seemed "normal" in typical city traffic.

 

[Muse]

Darn...I wanted to find out what would happen if you put 75W90 oil in an auto trans...

The service manager handed me a container of the fluid they put in, saying I might have use for it topping up at some point. It felt pretty empty. Got it home and looked and it appears there's not much more than about a tablespoon in the quart container. Well, I recall once reading somewhere (probably have it in my data) about a good use for transmission fluid, maybe to lube a computer fan, don't remember. Anyway, I'll keep it.

On the container it says:
D4 ATF
......
......
......
......
Also satisfies API 70W80
GL-4 Gear Requirements

When I was about to leave they asked me if I wanted them to wash the car. I almost said no because I washed it a couple of days ago, really detailing it from the trunk to the front under the hood and the interior, and vacuuming everywhere. However, I don't know that I've ever used soap on it, so I said go ahead. It's a very nice looking car for 15 years old.

 

[pauldun170]

So..transmission flush fixed the issue you were experiencing?

 

[sontakke]

Never knew that Redline D4 can be used in manual transmission! Readline makes specific manual transmission fluid. Usually automatic and manual transmission fluids are different and should be cross used.

Did they really change 14 quarts with the Redline D4? Then for the price charged, you got a good deal. Even on Amazon, it is about $10/quart. Dealer probably lists it even higher.

Since the car was driven for 12 miles (must be after the fluid change) and did not have any issue you might be in clear. You will have to drive more to see if the problem reoccurs.

 

[Muse]

So..transmission flush fixed the issue you were experiencing?

I do not know. The day of the incident (Nov. 15, 2012, so almost 2 months ago) I drove the car home, parked it in my driveway and never moved it until this morning. On the way home I was afraid I would die on that freeway, although I didn't feel panicked. I knew no other way home. I was as careful as I could be without becoming a menace in freeway traffic. I was amazed it would move at all after what happened in that parking lot.

Today, I got to the dealership OK (about a 5 mile drive, and I was nervous at first), it drove home fine after the service. I guess only time will tell. For the time being I'm going to pretend it never happened (well, sorta). I'm hoping it will go another 60,000 miles without an issue. When I told the service manager on the phone about the incident the other day and told him I'd heard that this car has a reputation as having a "60k transmission" his response was, OK, "I'll take your word for it" (yeah, right, what was he really thinking???), and "I've seen some with 200,000 miles on them." I didn't ask if they had the original transmission, but should have.

 

[Muse]

Never knew that Redline D4 can be used in manual transmission! Readline makes specific manual transmission fluid.

Yeah, I guess the MT in MT90 means it's meant for manual transmissions. Glad I never mentioned that to the service manager, he probably would have thought I'm a dolt. I just said Red Line synthetic. My quotes above from the bottle they gave me are exact!

Did they really change 14 quarts with the Redline D4?

I don't know. I didn't ask, but on the phone when I first called him and mentioned synthetic oil he said it would require 14 quarts. It didn't say on the receipt they gave me. I think that conversationally with me he had said it would probably be around $9/quart. I think he's been their service manager for quite a few years.

 

[sontakke]

Drive in mixed traffic for a while to get an idea if the problem comes back. Usually stop and go traffic is really taxing on the transmission especially on a hot day.

 

[Muse]

Drive in mixed traffic for a while to get an idea if the problem comes back. Usually stop and go traffic is really taxing on the transmission especially on a hot day.

We don't get a whole lot of hot days here. Maybe a handful a year, maximum. How often do I get in stop and go traffic in hot weather here? Probably less than one day a year! I don't drive a lot, hate stop and go traffic. Yes, it'll happen sooner or later.

I anticipate 3 kinds of trips in the near future:

1. Next week a few errands in the city in 9 days (I'm helping with a party).
2. Now that the car "works" I'll make a ~10 mile round trip into the hills (about a 1000' climb) to the local golf course and hit some balls on the range occasionally, and then 3x/week from May-October is what I did last year.
3. A ~10 mile round trip to Costco in a few weeks, something I do every 6-8 weeks.

Otherwise I get around town on my bicycle and roller skates.

What you say about hot weather concerns me because the research I did on this problem indicates that it's heat that kills the transmission and that it just wasn't engineered for this car. An aftermarket coil/cooler is a possibility, seems like it would be an investment of a few hundred dollars. Well, since it's not really a hot climate here maybe I can do without it. That first link in this thread is to that guy's tale about his Odyssey with his Mazda transmission, replacing it, adding a cooling coil, having subsequent failure, etc.... he describes it in great detail, it's well written and reasonably interesting. Of course, I have a reason to be interested! He also has lots of links within his story, including to that lengthy page on transmission recommendations for various Mazdas.

 

[pauldun170]

Found this
http://www.dustbury.com/626/trans.html

And Ford made running changes to the CD4E, revising the pump plate and gasket in November 1996 and redesigning the coast/forward clutch assembly in January 1998. Cooling capacity, another weak point, has been improved, though many owners are installing auxiliary transmission coolers to be on the safe side.

most of the Mazda techs I've talked to in recent years believe that the old two-year/30,000-mile interval that used to be considered the norm for transmission service is good for the 626.

...
I turned this up in a Contour/Mystique owner's manual:

"Under normal vehicle operating conditions, transmission service (transmission model CD4E) is not required unless 5,000 mile fluid inspections reveal either contamination or discoloration of fluid, or transmission exhibits functional concerns."​

Definitely sounds like you ought to look at the fluid every 5,000 miles.

You may want to install a transmission cooler

I have come to find that Mazda put a Ford transmission (cd4e) in the 626's and this specific transmission has caused many problems for many people. This is a transmission built for smaller, lighter cars but Mazda put it in the 626 anyway, although it is a heavier car.

Transmission cooler install
http://mazda626.net/topic/24936-external-trans-cooler/


http://www.carproblemzoo.com/mazda/626/automatic-transmission-cooler-problems.php

 

[Muse]

Pauldun170, thank you for that post. I will keep that info and this thread close at hand. Will consider the cooler although our summers aren't very hot. There is the occasional heat wave. One thing's for sure, I will make a point of keeping my cell phone with me when driving the car. I don't have an AAA membership but figure I could need a tow at any time. Who knows. I should program the number of at least one tow outfit into the phone!

 

[Muse]

You may want to install a transmission cooler


Transmission cooler install
http://mazda626.net/topic/24936-external-trans-cooler/

Ah, looks like I might be able to install the transmission cooler myself!

Just registered there.

 

[vertika]

At that time many things was lacking and not invented but now we have so much stuff in cars like super/turbo chargers provide best performance.

 

[Muse]

At that time many things was lacking and not invented but now we have so much stuff in cars like super/turbo chargers provide best performance.

By today's standards it's pretty spare. Doesn't even have anti-lock brakes. However I don't drive it a lot and I do love the way it handles. I'm in no hurry to get another car. If the trany seems OK, I'll probably install that cooler kit myself. I have it in my cart at Amazon, it's less than $40 shipped. Installing it is certainly a project but I like DIY stuff, although I don't recall doing any on a car beyond the trivial stuff like changing oil, filters and a burned out bulb or fuse.

 

[Muse]

It seems like it is too late for fluid change. You will have to extremely lucky to have your transmission working like before the incident. How many quarts of fluid is he changing? Is he also replacing the filter? Was the original fluid already smelling and had blackish color?

I don't know if they replaced the filter, I'll call and ask. That would be lame if they didn't, huh? Their invoice makes no mention of the filter, it only says "Transmission Service" and parts $144. He told me on the phone when I made the appointment several days ago it would require 14 quarts of fluid.

What was in there did not look black, in fact it looked pretty nice to me. It didn't smell burned either.

They took it for a test drive after doing whatever they did. The service manager told me that it tested fine. They said they tested a plethora of systems in the car and everything checked out fine. They gave me a sheet detailing that stuff. The total charges including tax was about $251.

Will it act OK? I don't know. I asked him if he thought that the incident I had was due to impurities in the fluid, particles, water? He said that's quite possible. He said again that the servo might have stuck. I asked him to explain this and he did. He said that a sticking servo might explain the incident.

The car had 12 more miles on it when I left than when I brought it in.

Edit: I just called and am told that there's no transmission filter in my car. The guy who did the work struck me as heads up.

The ~5 mile drive home seemed "normal" in typical city traffic.

Doing some more searching/research online today I saw mention of a transmission filter for this car. WTF (see the 2nd quote in this post), when I called and asked if they'd replaced the filter they came back and told me that there's no transmission filter in the car. They evidently made that up. Man these dealerships can be sleazy, huh?

The invoice makes no mention of a filter, only 12 units of transmission fluid at $12 each, for $144 total parts in addition to the labor.

What should I do? I figured I'd post for suggestions before calling them indignant. I have the Chilton's and I just looked it up and it said you have to replace the filter assembly, don't clean it as that will contaminate the transaxle. There are detailed and specific instructions in Chilton's how you replace the transmission fluid, but it doesn't mention flushing or using special equipment, obviously beyond the purview of a DIY mechanic. They say the capacity is 7.2 quarts. But the Chilton's is for several models:

323/MX-3/626/MX-6/Millenia/Protege 1990-98

I don't know how the same capacity could apply to all. My owner's manual for my '97 626LX 2.0L 4cyl says 9.2 quarts.

Don't they use extra to flush? Double?

 

[sontakke]

Most likely all they did is replace the fluid. Do you know if the transmission has a drain plug? If so, then they drained and refilled it few times. If no drain plug, then must have done it through the cooler lines. I bet they never took the transmission pan off, otherwise they would have had easy access to the filter.

which specific engine/model year do you have? may somebody might be able to find real factory shop manual for the car.

 

[Muse]

Most likely all they did is replace the fluid. Do you know if the transmission has a drain plug? If so, then they drained and refilled it few times. If no drain plug, then must have done it through the cooler lines. I bet they never took the transmission pan off, otherwise they would have had easy access to the filter.

which specific engine/model year do you have? may somebody might be able to find real factory shop manual for the car.

The Chilton's says it has a drain plug and it says you should replace its washer to insure a leakless plug, which I doubt they did.

It's a 1997 Mazda 626LX 2.0L 4-cylinder. Yes, they probably never removed the pan. I tried to call Mazda USA and ask them if this dealership messed up the service, I'm sure they have their standards. At the very least, I should not have been told that there's no filter. However, I called at 4:45PM and they close at 4:30PM. I can call them tomorrow.

I also have to wonder if they properly flushed it. I saw a post that this car should definitely not be power flushed, that doing so, particularly without changing the filter, I think, would produce a lot of particulate matter into the transmission, making things worse. They say they used 12 qt. fluid (says that on the invoice), the manual says it needs 9.2 qt, so they could not have "drained and refilled it few times." To placate the customer they have a policy of doing a "thorough inspection of the car's systems" or the like, giving me a checklist with no specific information. Seems like a snow job now.
- - - -

The CD4E transmission should NEVER BE POWERFLUSHED!! The filter is not removable (without major disassembly). So powerflushing throws all sorts of crap into the tranny oil. I can take a pretty good guess why your stang's tranny went.... When an automatic transmission is not maintained, excessive wear particles get into the oil and wear down the atx quickly. Those same particles keep enough friction in the oil to hold the tranny together... Changing the oil on a atx in this situation will only show the damage within the atx...

^^ thats not saying that changing the fluid damages the tranny. Doing so just magnifies symptoms already there.

That's a segment of post #30 here: http://mazda626.net/topic/10379-if-you-have-had-a-transmission-problem/page-2
- - - -

You know, it's a nice car. It's too bad they completely blew it when it came to the transmission. It was designed for a much lighter vehicle. Mazda never owned up to the problems. They did eventually release a bulletin, but they didn't take responsibility and pay for the auxiliary cooler that would extend the transmission's life. The problems were for 626 models from 1993 - 2002, that's a long time. I found two nice illustrated threads at mazda626.net showing exactly how the cooler is installed. If it's working now reasonably well, I'll install my own cooler and keep my fingers crossed. Otherwise, I may see if I can put in an MTX or another ATX plus a cooler, possibly.

 

[LTC8K6]

Looks like the filter is not normally a changeable part. It would only be changed with a rebuild. It's a "lifetime" part. Assuming you have the C4DE / LA4A-EL transaxle.