Who would the founding fathers be more proud of?

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Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
People sure tend to have romantic viewpoints about our founding fathers.

A half Black president? Our founding fathers would be rolling over in their graves much like the original founders of Augusta would have upon learning that Tiger Woods won their tournament.

Nor am I claiming that Obama is Tiger Woods. But where winning is concerned they are both very good bets. I'm betting that Obama wins that tournament in November. ;)

I doubt they would be upset about Obama being half-black, nor is that a romantic viewpoint. Several of the Founding Fathers were staunch Abolitionists, notably Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine, and Alexander Hamilton. With the American Revolution came laws and agreements whereupon all the northern states ended slavery and all the southern states agreed to end the slave trade.

Obama does occur to be a good bet.
Paine may be a good example but Franklin himself owned slaves and Hamilton bought and sold slaves on the behalf of others, all while claiming an abolitionist stance. Most of our founding fathers owned slaves and I can state with some certainty that Obama wouldn't be voted in as President if only our founding fathers were casting votes.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
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Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Oops.. misread the thread title.

Who would they be most PROUD of?

I think McCain for what he did as a POW. Obama has accomplished a lot and has a lot to be proud of, but he has never had to sacrifice one thing in order to get to where he is.

McCain gave up his chance for freedom to make a stance on principle. I think the founding fathers would identify with that. Especially since so many of them were rich and could have sat on their asses and enjoyed their wealth instead of risking it all in a revolution against the most powerful country in the world.
you really have become the most irritating poster here...

WTF did he do as a POW that was of great significance to the people of the USA?
What has Obama done that is of any significance to the people of the USA?

The title is "Who would the founding fathers be more proud of?"
As a group that risked everything for an idea I think they would be proud of people like McCain who did the principled thing instead of the easy thing.

McCain could have taken the offer of freedom and very few people would have thought less of him at the time. Instead he did the hard thing and sacrificed his freedom for the principle of first man in first man out.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,952
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Originally posted by: Genx87
This is like asking what Jesus would think. All it ends up being is a bunch of partisans proclaiming men from generations past would support their candidate.

I honestly think looking at the framework the founding fathers laid and their intent of small govt they would be disgusted with both candidates and the snake oil they sell.

But who really knows.

/shrug

That is what all Americans should do. Instead these men will get millions of votes. Votes which guarantee the outcome of our issues will not resolve peacefully.
 

Butterbean

Banned
Oct 12, 2006
918
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McCain was severly injured and near death when VC offered him an exit home. He stayed with his men instead. Obama meanwhile is a cream puff who even threw his granny under the bus (and its crowded there) when he wanted to. As much a boob as McCain is, BO cant hold a candle to him as far as sacrificing went. Bo's candy butt is so covered by the media he cant even take slight flak. BO is toast in Nov.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
For like the 3rd time, founding fathers not a monolithic figure. They had widely varying opinions. Chances are pretty good that a lot of them would have absolutely loathed McCain for his pro invasion stance considering how much they were against foreign entanglements. McCain's primary platform issue, his support for the war, runs directly against that.

See the thing is that you can invent whatever issue you want to say that "the founding fathers would have loved XXXX!" The two parties straddle the issues so completely, and the founding fathers were so ideologically scattershot that anyone can find a quote from one of them to support just about anything they want. (note: this is why quoting 'the founding fathers' in most other threads is bullshit as well)

Give it up, they were a group of people with tons of different ideas, and a whole load of their ideas were absolutely horrendous. They did a good job with the Constitution, but we should care what they think about our government now about as much as we care what Christopher Columbus would think. It's our government, not theirs.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
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Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Genx87
This is like asking what Jesus would think. All it ends up being is a bunch of partisans proclaiming men from generations past would support their candidate.

I honestly think looking at the framework the founding fathers laid and their intent of small govt they would be disgusted with both candidates and the snake oil they sell.

But who really knows.

/shrug

That is what all Americans should do. Instead these men will get millions of votes. Votes which guarantee the outcome of our issues will not resolve peacefully.

Again, only some of them wanted small government. Plenty of others wanted a government that you would probably view as tyrannical. Why are you picking and choosing and then declaring that 'the will of the founding fathers'?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
For like the 3rd time, founding fathers not a monolithic figure. They had widely varying opinions. Chances are pretty good that a lot of them would have absolutely loathed McCain for his pro invasion stance considering how much they were against foreign entanglements. McCain's primary platform issue, his support for the war, runs directly against that.

See the thing is that you can invent whatever issue you want to say that "the founding fathers would have loved XXXX!" The two parties straddle the issues so completely, and the founding fathers were so ideologically scattershot that anyone can find a quote from one of them to support just about anything they want. (note: this is why quoting 'the founding fathers' in most other threads is bullshit as well)

Give it up, they were a group of people with tons of different ideas, and a whole load of their ideas were absolutely horrendous. They did a good job with the Constitution, but we should care what they think about our government now about as much as we care what Christopher Columbus would think. It's our government, not theirs.

Good post. And actually, the Constitution was the logical result of their vast disagreements. Quite frankly, there were few friendships among the founding fathers. Most of them did not like each other, and more than a few of them were passionate enemies. All of them were afraid that one among them would try to seize power and make himself a king. The result was our federal republic with states rights, the Bill of Rights for the people, checks and balances, and democratic representation. Because democracy is an armed truce. And hell, most of them even feared democracy too, believing it would collapse into mob rule. The irony is that their disagreements led to one of the most stable govts. in history.

Oh, and even Washington freed his 300+ slaves. In his will, unfortunately, but oh well.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
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Originally posted by: Butterbean
McCain was severly injured and near death when VC offered him an exit home. He stayed with his men instead. Obama meanwhile is a cream puff who even threw his granny under the bus (and its crowded there) when he wanted to. As much a boob as McCain is, BO cant hold a candle to him as far as sacrificing went. Bo's candy butt is so covered by the media he cant even take slight flak. BO is toast in Nov.

Then why did McCain so easily sacrifice his pride and morals when rove and bush said all that shit about him and his family and wife during 2000 prelims?
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: IGBT
..no comparison. McCains lifetime experience and core values dwarfs the obama and his community service experience and "poll" values.

You think the founding fathers, including Jefferson who was 33 when he wrote the Declaration of Independance, and Hamilton who was twenty one in 1776 would be super concerned with 'lifetime experience'? They had no experience themselves, and things seemed to have worked out okay.

I really think you might just be a bot.
So...if the shoe was on the other foot (McCain having limited experience and Obama having substantially more experience)...could you honestly say that you would be here right now in these forums defending McCain with your statement above? Somehow I doubt it. Are you a bot?

So you're attempting to attack me based upon my hypothetical non-response to a hypothetical question. Stop being a moron. I also notice that your response doesn't address whether or not what I wrote was true (and it is), only if you could detect a partisan motivation behind the person who posted it. What does that say about you?

Why don't you go read my original post in this thread which mentioned what I thought about the subject without descending into partisan hackery like plenty of these other idiots.
I had no intention to attack you...I was just asking you a question to try to get a better understanding of where you're coming from. Of course what you wrote was true...I did not comment or infer otherwise. Also, your original post impressed me with your knowledge of the political landscape of early America...few here understand the polarized cutthroat politics of that time. You're obviously very intelligent.

However, I think I asked you a fair question. Is it hard for you to give an honest answer?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
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Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: IGBT
..no comparison. McCains lifetime experience and core values dwarfs the obama and his community service experience and "poll" values.

You think the founding fathers, including Jefferson who was 33 when he wrote the Declaration of Independance, and Hamilton who was twenty one in 1776 would be super concerned with 'lifetime experience'? They had no experience themselves, and things seemed to have worked out okay.

I really think you might just be a bot.
So...if the shoe was on the other foot (McCain having limited experience and Obama having substantially more experience)...could you honestly say that you would be here right now in these forums defending McCain with your statement above? Somehow I doubt it. Are you a bot?

So you're attempting to attack me based upon my hypothetical non-response to a hypothetical question. Stop being a moron. I also notice that your response doesn't address whether or not what I wrote was true (and it is), only if you could detect a partisan motivation behind the person who posted it. What does that say about you?

Why don't you go read my original post in this thread which mentioned what I thought about the subject without descending into partisan hackery like plenty of these other idiots.
I had no intention to attack you...I was just asking you a question to try to get a better understanding of where you're coming from. Of course what you wrote was true...I did not comment or infer otherwise. Also, your original post impressed me with your knowledge of the political landscape of early America...few here understand the polarized cutthroat politics of that time. You're obviously very intelligent.

However, I think I asked you a fair question. Is it hard for you to give an honest answer?

I couldn't tell you my potential reaction to a matchup between bizarro McCain and zombie Obama. The closest thing I could compare it to would be during the Hillary v. Obama primary. While I supported Obama in that as well, I liked Hillary very much. That was because I liked her health care plan though, not because she had spent more time in government. So no, I doubt my answer would have been different.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
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Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Who would they be most PROUD of?

I think McCain for what he did as a POW. Obama has accomplished a lot and has a lot to be proud of, but he has never had to sacrifice one thing in order to get to where he is.

McCain gave up his chance for freedom to make a stance on principle. I think the founding fathers would identify with that. Especially since so many of them were rich and could have sat on their asses and enjoyed their wealth instead of risking it all in a revolution against the most powerful country in the world.

He didn't "give up his chance for freedom". He signed up for war service and got shot down. The reason why he signed up, we don't know. Senator Obama, gave up a lucrative career in practicing law to work on the streets of Chicago and teach constitutional law.

The beyond hypothetical premise of the thread and PJ's (unbiased, I'm sure) opinion aside, there is such a thing as picking your battles. I can't imagine any circumstance under which Obama or anyone even remotely associated with his campaign would attempt to make this one of them. War service, capture and torture vs giving up private practice for teaching?

Not to mention your post is a lie. McCain was offered his freedom, and he declined. Cut and dry.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
McCain may have more experience and may have more political clout/power... but will he use it for good .. or just the same BS Bush and his toruture supporting minions used it for - More death and destruction via WAR WAR WAR.. the lameass WOT .. same as WOD .. all fud..

Obama seems to care more about the people who actually live in the usa than he does the corporatons and defense contractors
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: IGBT
..no comparison. McCains lifetime experience and core values dwarfs the obama and his community service experience and "poll" values.

You think the founding fathers, including Jefferson who was 33 when he wrote the Declaration of Independance, and Hamilton who was twenty one in 1776 would be super concerned with 'lifetime experience'? They had no experience themselves, and things seemed to have worked out okay.

I really think you might just be a bot.
So...if the shoe was on the other foot (McCain having limited experience and Obama having substantially more experience)...could you honestly say that you would be here right now in these forums defending McCain with your statement above? Somehow I doubt it. Are you a bot?

So you're attempting to attack me based upon my hypothetical non-response to a hypothetical question. Stop being a moron. I also notice that your response doesn't address whether or not what I wrote was true (and it is), only if you could detect a partisan motivation behind the person who posted it. What does that say about you?

Why don't you go read my original post in this thread which mentioned what I thought about the subject without descending into partisan hackery like plenty of these other idiots.
I had no intention to attack you...I was just asking you a question to try to get a better understanding of where you're coming from. Of course what you wrote was true...I did not comment or infer otherwise. Also, your original post impressed me with your knowledge of the political landscape of early America...few here understand the polarized cutthroat politics of that time. You're obviously very intelligent.

However, I think I asked you a fair question. Is it hard for you to give an honest answer?

I couldn't tell you my potential reaction to a matchup between bizarro McCain and zombie Obama. The closest thing I could compare it to would be during the Hillary v. Obama primary. While I supported Obama in that as well, I liked Hillary very much. That was because I liked her health care plan though, not because she had spent more time in government. So no, I doubt my answer would have been different.
Thanks for your response...much appreciated. Personally...I think Obama's lack of "experience" is a plus..."experience" doesn't count for much when you take a good look at the poor track record of long-time career politicians from both parties over the past several years.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
McCain may have more experience and may have more political clout/power... but will he use it for good .. or just the same BS Bush and his toruture supporting minions used it for - More death and destruction via WAR WAR WAR.. the lameass WOT .. same as WOD .. all fud..

Obama seems to care more about the people who actually live in the usa than he does the corporatons and defense contractors
I don't think you can say either of them 'care more' I am sure they both feel the same about the people who live here.

The difference is in what they think is best for the country.
Obama seems to think that it is government that will solve all our problems.
McCain seems to think that it is individuals that will solve our problems.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dahunan
McCain may have more experience and may have more political clout/power... but will he use it for good .. or just the same BS Bush and his toruture supporting minions used it for - More death and destruction via WAR WAR WAR.. the lameass WOT .. same as WOD .. all fud..

Obama seems to care more about the people who actually live in the usa than he does the corporatons and defense contractors
I don't think you can say either of them 'care more' I am sure they both feel the same about the people who live here.

The difference is in what they think is best for the country.
Obama seems to think that it is government that will solve all our problems.
McCain seems to think that it is individuals that will solve our problems.

Must you do this? You don't actually believe it do you?
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Who would they be most PROUD of?

I think McCain for what he did as a POW. Obama has accomplished a lot and has a lot to be proud of, but he has never had to sacrifice one thing in order to get to where he is.

McCain gave up his chance for freedom to make a stance on principle. I think the founding fathers would identify with that. Especially since so many of them were rich and could have sat on their asses and enjoyed their wealth instead of risking it all in a revolution against the most powerful country in the world.

He didn't "give up his chance for freedom". He signed up for war service and got shot down. The reason why he signed up, we don't know. Senator Obama, gave up a lucrative career in practicing law to work on the streets of Chicago and teach constitutional law.

The beyond hypothetical premise of the thread and PJ's (unbiased, I'm sure) opinion aside, there is such a thing as picking your battles. I can't imagine any circumstance under which Obama or anyone even remotely associated with his campaign would attempt to make this one of them. War service, capture and torture vs giving up private practice for teaching?

Not to mention your post is a lie. McCain was offered his freedom, and he declined. Cut and dry.

I misread his post. I thought when he said "give up his chance for freedom to make a stance on principal", I assumed he was referencing to his initial entry into the war. Other than that, I don't see my equating the two. However, to dismiss the Senators and countless other young Americans decision to bypass lucrative careers in order to help the poor is disingenious. Not everyone has their self-interest at heart after exiting school. Some want to contribute to a greater cause.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dahunan
McCain may have more experience and may have more political clout/power... but will he use it for good .. or just the same BS Bush and his toruture supporting minions used it for - More death and destruction via WAR WAR WAR.. the lameass WOT .. same as WOD .. all fud..

Obama seems to care more about the people who actually live in the usa than he does the corporatons and defense contractors
I don't think you can say either of them 'care more' I am sure they both feel the same about the people who live here.

The difference is in what they think is best for the country.
Obama seems to think that it is government that will solve all our problems.
McCain seems to think that it is individuals that will solve our problems.
Must you do this? You don't actually believe it do you?
Yes I do. Look at Obama's web site every solution involves the government.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dahunan
McCain may have more experience and may have more political clout/power... but will he use it for good .. or just the same BS Bush and his toruture supporting minions used it for - More death and destruction via WAR WAR WAR.. the lameass WOT .. same as WOD .. all fud..

Obama seems to care more about the people who actually live in the usa than he does the corporatons and defense contractors
I don't think you can say either of them 'care more' I am sure they both feel the same about the people who live here.

The difference is in what they think is best for the country.
Obama seems to think that it is government that will solve all our problems.
McCain seems to think that it is individuals that will solve our problems.
Oh, nonsense. They both see big government as the solution. They differ a bit in the problems they want to solve and the ways is which big government would solve them, but they both focus heavily on government "solutions". If you don't want government solving our problems -- real and imaginary -- vote Libertarian. In that respect, Democrats and Republicans are merely two sides of the same coin.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dahunan
McCain may have more experience and may have more political clout/power... but will he use it for good .. or just the same BS Bush and his toruture supporting minions used it for - More death and destruction via WAR WAR WAR.. the lameass WOT .. same as WOD .. all fud..

Obama seems to care more about the people who actually live in the usa than he does the corporatons and defense contractors
I don't think you can say either of them 'care more' I am sure they both feel the same about the people who live here.

The difference is in what they think is best for the country.
Obama seems to think that it is government that will solve all our problems.
McCain seems to think that it is individuals that will solve our problems.
Must you do this? You don't actually believe it do you?
Yes I do. Look at Obama's web site every solution involves the government.

lol. I remember people like you criticizing him when he said one way we could lower our healthcare bill was by living healthier lives (i.e. eating better food, exercising, etc...). I also remember people like you criticizing him when he said we can lower our oil consumption by making sure the air in our car tires are sufficient. The man has an individualist streak but you don't like that part.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dahunan
McCain may have more experience and may have more political clout/power... but will he use it for good .. or just the same BS Bush and his toruture supporting minions used it for - More death and destruction via WAR WAR WAR.. the lameass WOT .. same as WOD .. all fud..

Obama seems to care more about the people who actually live in the usa than he does the corporatons and defense contractors
I don't think you can say either of them 'care more' I am sure they both feel the same about the people who live here.

The difference is in what they think is best for the country.
Obama seems to think that it is government that will solve all our problems.
McCain seems to think that it is individuals that will solve our problems.
Must you do this? You don't actually believe it do you?
Yes I do. Look at Obama's web site every solution involves the government.

As Bowfinger said, that's a load of crap. McCain loves big government just as much as Obama, just he likes it in different areas. While it is true that he likes to exert government's influence through corporations every once in awhile, this hardly makes it any better.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Yes I do. Look at Obama's web site every solution involves the government.

lol. I remember people like you criticizing him when he said one way we could lower our healthcare bill was by living healthier lives (i.e. eating better food, exercising, etc...). I also remember people like you criticizing him when he said we can lower our oil consumption by making sure the air in our car tires are sufficient. The man has an individualist streak but you don't like that part.

It's not that he doesn't like that part, it's that he is looking for reasons to justify a choice he has already made.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Yes I do. Look at Obama's web site every solution involves the government.

lol. I remember people like you criticizing him when he said one way we could lower our healthcare bill was by living healthier lives (i.e. eating better food, exercising, etc...). I also remember people like you criticizing him when he said we can lower our oil consumption by making sure the air in our car tires are sufficient. The man has an individualist streak but you don't like that part.

It's not that he doesn't like that part, it's that he is looking for reasons to justify a choice he has already made.
As 90% of the people who post here do.

 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dahunan
McCain may have more experience and may have more political clout/power... but will he use it for good .. or just the same BS Bush and his toruture supporting minions used it for - More death and destruction via WAR WAR WAR.. the lameass WOT .. same as WOD .. all fud..

Obama seems to care more about the people who actually live in the usa than he does the corporatons and defense contractors
I don't think you can say either of them 'care more' I am sure they both feel the same about the people who live here.

The difference is in what they think is best for the country.
Obama seems to think that it is government that will solve all our problems.
McCain seems to think that it is individuals that will solve our problems.
Must you do this? You don't actually believe it do you?
Yes I do. Look at Obama's web site every solution involves the government.

I don't know for sure.. but McCain.. every solution involves the Military :) ?

 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Yes I do. Look at Obama's web site every solution involves the government.

lol. I remember people like you criticizing him when he said one way we could lower our healthcare bill was by living healthier lives (i.e. eating better food, exercising, etc...). I also remember people like you criticizing him when he said we can lower our oil consumption by making sure the air in our car tires are sufficient. The man has an individualist streak but you don't like that part.

It's not that he doesn't like that part, it's that he is looking for reasons to justify a choice he has already made.
As 90% of the people who post here do.

But he can do that based upon real stances that Obama has, he doesn't need to invent a caricature to be against. I like things about McCain, doesn't mean I have to vote for him, and it doesn't mean that I need to make him into this ridiculous figure in order to vote against him.