Who would have thought: Ride sharing actually adds to city congestion!

dud

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
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This should not come as much of a surprise. Uber/Lyft have been selling themselves as reducing congestion in cities ... but it appears the opposite is true. Interesting that these services are pulling riders from mass transit. Wonder what impact this will have (if any) on these companies, their futures and their stock prices as cities/countries clamp down on them. This story has been posted on multiple news platforms:


http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/sns-bc-us--ride-hailing-congestion-20180225-story.html


Studies are increasingly clear: Uber, Lyft congest cities

One promise of ride-hailing companies like Uber and Lyft was fewer cars clogging city streets. But studies suggest the opposite: that ride-hailing companies are pulling riders off buses, subways, bicycles and their own feet and putting them in cars instead.

And in what could be a new wrinkle, a service by Uber called Express Pool now is seen as directly competing with mass transit.

Uber and Lyft argue that in Boston, for instance, they complement public transit by connecting riders to hubs like Logan Airport and South Station. But they have not released their own specific data about rides, leaving studies up to outside researchers.

And the impact of all those cars is becoming clear, said Christo Wilson, a professor of computer science at Boston's Northeastern University , who has looked at Uber's practice of surge pricing during heavy volume.

"The emerging consensus is that ride-sharing (is) increasing congestion," Wilson said.

One study included surveys of 944 ride-hailing users over four weeks in late 2017 in the Boston area. Nearly six in 10 said they would have used public transportation, walked, biked or skipped the trip if the ride-hailing apps weren't available.

The report also found many riders aren't using hailed rides to connect to a subway or bus line, but instead as a separate mode of transit, said Alison Felix, one of the report's authors.

"Ride sharing is pulling from and not complementing public transportation," she said.

That's not quite what Uber founder Travis Kalanick suggested in 2015 when he said, "We envision a world where there's no more traffic in Boston in five years."

A study released in December found that large increases in the number of taxis and ride-sharing vehicles are contributing to slow traffic in Manhattan's central business district. It recommended policies to prevent further increases in "the number of vacant vehicles occupied only by drivers waiting for their next trip request."

In San Francisco, a study released in June found that on a typical weekday, ride-hailing drivers make more than 170,000 vehicle trips, about 12 times the number of taxi trips, and that the trips are concentrated in the densest and most congested parts of the city.

And a survey released in October of more than 4,000 adults in Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, the San Francisco Bay Area, Seattle and Washington, D.C., also concluded that 49 to 61 percent of ride-hailing trips would have not been made at all — or instead by walking, biking or public transit — if the option didn't exist.

The Boston study found that the main reason people opted for ride-hailing was speed. Even those with a public transit pass would drop it for ride-hailing despite the higher cost.

Sarah Wu, a graduate student at Boston University, uses Uber less than once a week but more often if she has guests. She lives near a subway line but will opt for Uber if it looks like public transit will be a hassle.

"I would prefer to have the Uber take me there directly rather than having to transfer several times and wait at a bus stop," said Wu, who doesn't own a car.

A spokesman for Lyft stressed that ride-hailing could reduce the number of personally owned cars on the roads.

"Lyft is focused on making personal car ownership optional by getting more people to share a ride, helping to reduce car ownership, and partnering with public transportation," spokesman Adrian Durbin said in a statement.

Uber is hoping to wean drivers from their cars in part by encouraging its carpooling services, spokeswoman Alix Anfang said.

"Uber's long-term goal is to end the reliance on personal vehicles and allow a mix of public transportation and services like Uber," Anfang said.

Uber's new Express Pool links riders who want to travel to similar destinations. Riders walk a short distance to be picked up at a common location and are dropped off near their final destinations — essentially, how a bus or subway line functions.

The service was tested in November in San Francisco and Boston and has found enough ridership to support it 24 hours a day. Round-the-clock service was also rolled out last week in Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Washington, Miami, San Diego and Denver, with more cities to follow.

"This could be good for congestion if it causes vehicle occupancy rates to go up, but on the other hand, the Uber Pool rides and I guess these Express rides are really, really cheap, just a couple of dollars, so they're almost certainly going to be pulling people away from public transport options," Wilson said. "Why get on a bus with 50 people when you can get into a car and maybe if you're lucky, you'll be the only person in it?"

In a study released in October by the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority, as many as two-thirds of transit users reported also using ride-hailing companies.

A report released this month by San Francisco's Bay Area Rapid Transit system found ridership down disproportionately on weekends and off-peak hours, in part citing ride-hailing trips.

The MBTA is focusing on what it can control: pumping money into new trains, buses and infrastructure improvements, spokesman Joe Pesaturo said.

At least one study did not pin increased congestion on hailing services. Seattle-based firm Inrix scoured data from 2012 to 2015 in London and found the number of passenger vehicles, including Uber cars, remained the same or even dipped slightly. Reasons for increased congestion included a surge in road construction and delivery trucks dropping off online purchases.
 
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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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Yeah, who would have thought a quicker and more convenient option would be preferred over mass transit. That’s a shocker. Next people will come up with some crazy talk that people prefer faster and often cheaper airplane flights over high speed rail despite the later costing far more to build and serving fewer destinations.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
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If you think about it the assets used for those services must constantly remain in motion whereas a private vehicle will get off the road once it reaches its destination.
 
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pete6032

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2010
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Not surprising. What's even worse is that, unlike most taxis, uber drivers feel entitled to just stop in the middle of the fucking road in order to let passengers out, rather than pulling up to the nearest corner so traffic can go by.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
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This is pretty obvious for areas that already have reduced personal car ownership.

I wonder how it would relate to a place like Dallas. I wonder if people would be more willing to give up a personal car and take PT most of the time, knowing they could Uber the times they didn't want to deal with PT or need to go somewhere PT doesn't go. In places like Dallas there are also plenty of places Ubers could get off the road to wait for their next fare.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
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Yeah, who would have thought a quicker and more convenient option would be preferred over mass transit. That’s a shocker. Next people will come up with some crazy talk that people prefer faster and often cheaper airplane flights over high speed rail despite the later costing far more to build and serving fewer destinations.
High speed rail has its place, just like subways, buses and personal cars.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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I've never heard of that term, what is it?
Charges people to bring vehicles into city centers. Many major cities do this around the world to prevent congestion and allow surface mass transit to operate smoothly and efficiently.
 

pete6032

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2010
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I've never heard of that term, what is it?
Charges people to bring vehicles into city centers. Many major cities do this around the world to prevent congestion and allow surface mass transit to operate smoothly and efficiently.

Just to add to this you could also charge different rates at different times. So at times of peak congestion the prices would be higher, thus discouraging people from driving at peak hours.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
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This is pretty obvious for areas that already have reduced personal car ownership.

I wonder how it would relate to a place like Dallas. I wonder if people would be more willing to give up a personal car and take PT most of the time, knowing they could Uber the times they didn't want to deal with PT or need to go somewhere PT doesn't go. In places like Dallas there are also plenty of places Ubers could get off the road to wait for their next fare.
Living in the Los Angeles area, public transportation sucks unless you live in extremely specific areas. Uber/Lyft, people use that instead of taking shorts trips in their car. I've done it many times. Meeting up with friends, I'd take Uber/Lyft instead of driving.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
25,273
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I think it is a short lived problem(from time=now). Soon we will have automated driving, I dont know what the threshold will be but throughput on the roads will skyrocket once cleared. I expect for conventional busses to cease to exist and the subway really diminish in terms of throughput.
Transportation is one of those areas where AI and robotics is really gonna put people out of jobs.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
14,645
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Yeah, who would have thought a quicker and more convenient option would be preferred over mass transit. That’s a shocker. Next people will come up with some crazy talk that people prefer faster and often cheaper airplane flights over high speed rail despite the later costing far more to build and serving fewer destinations.

Misses the point that there are uncosted externalities involved.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,684
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Neither had I. Hasn't been implemented anywhere yet. NY attempt got stalled. It's closest to implementation in SF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_congestion_pricing


Neither of you ever watched Top Gear much, did y'all? Clarkson would rant about it a few times a year about London.

The Congestion Charge is an £11.50 (~$16.17 US) daily charge for driving a vehicle within the charging zone between 07:00 and 18:00, Monday to Friday.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/congestion-charge
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
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I object to the title, Uber and Lyft are not ride sharing, they are taxi services by any other name.

Exactly, they are the equivalent of "outsourcing" in order to bypass the rules, regulations, and costs associated with taxis, either make them adhere to all the rules good and bad taxi companies have to live by or lower the standards and costs for taxi companies to uber/lyft level.

The Europeans get it, and don't fall for the BS that they are tech companies and shouldn't have to follow the same rules,

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/20/technology/uber-taxi-company-europe/index.html

Europe's top court has ruled that Uber should be regulated as a transportation company -- and not a tech firm.
The decision by the European Court of Justice is a major setback for Uber, which has long insisted that it should be treated as technology service that connects drivers and riders.

The court rejected that argument in its landmark decision, ruling that Uber is at its heart a transportation company and should be regulated as such.

Uber could now be subjected to the stricter licensing requirements that apply to traditional taxi operators. The startup could also eventually be asked to collect new taxes from customers.

The ruling, which cannot be appealed, could have major implications for other companies that operate in Europe's gig economy. The upstart firms have typically faced lighter regulation than their traditional rivals.

"What the judgment does show is that it's not a brave new world for the gig economy," said Rachel Farr, a senior employment lawyer at Taylor Wessing. "The law applies to them all."

Uber said in a statement that the ruling would "not change things in most EU countries where we already operate under transportation law."

Related: Uber has more work to do winning over drivers

But it could limit the company's ability to use drivers who do not have professional licenses -- a service currently offered in only a few European markets.

The Uber case was brought by professional taxi drivers in Spain who argued that the startup had an unfair advantage because drivers on its UberPop service didn't have the taxi licenses required by the city of Barcelona.

A Spanish court referred the case to the European Court of Justice.

Farr said the ruling could open the door to more expensive Uber rides in Europe, because the company could eventually be required to collect sales taxes from consumers.

The taxes had previously gone uncollected because Uber drivers -- who are classified as independent contractors -- were too small to be registered for the tax.

"This would immediately increase the cost of fares by 20%," said Farr.


too bad our tech liberals who are on the politically correct side of social justice issues are no different than conservatives when it comes to workers and money, rules and regulations are a hindrance to their profit only matters mentality.
 
Dec 10, 2005
27,509
11,852
136
I think it is a short lived problem(from time=now). Soon we will have automated driving, I dont know what the threshold will be but throughput on the roads will skyrocket once cleared. I expect for conventional busses to cease to exist and the subway really diminish in terms of throughput.
Transportation is one of those areas where AI and robotics is really gonna put people out of jobs.
Automated cars might fix things a little, but congestion is mainly a function of the number of vehicles. Plus, cars, no matter how automated, move very few people per square foot compared to the capacities of a bus or subway. Buses and other mass transit are not going anywhere, and you'll likely see an expansion of these services over the next decades. If transit is rapid enough, regularly provides service, is reliable, and has stops close enough to people's destinations, many people would use it. But when it becomes unreliable and takes forever, people abandon it in favor of personalized services like Lyft, which compounds the congestion problem and worsens existing surface mass transit.
 
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vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
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I guess as a frequent user of Lyft I've never considered it as an alternative to traditional public transportation. It's an alternative to a cab, which is not public transportation in the sense of a subway, bus, ect.

So this really isn't surprising to me.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,599
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I've never heard of that term, what is it?

London does this. You actually have to pay a fee if you want to drive downtown at certain times and depending on your vehicle you can get reductions (the greener the better)...which doesn't make sense from a congestion perspective. A car is a car in that equation.

I think you have to purchase a ticket or stamp or something, load value onto a card, before driving through those zones.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,599
30,861
146
Exactly, they are the equivalent of "outsourcing" in order to bypass the rules, regulations, and costs associated with taxis, either make them adhere to all the rules good and bad taxi companies have to live by or lower the standards and costs for taxi companies to uber/lyft level.

The Europeans get it, and don't fall for the BS that they are tech companies and shouldn't have to follow the same rules,




too bad our tech liberals who are on the politically correct side of social justice issues are no different than conservatives when it comes to workers and money, rules and regulations are a hindrance to their profit only matters mentality.

I'd honestly rather see the end of Uber/Lyft/Air BnB altogether. These are municipally destructive enterprises from nearly every angle. Cities see a cavernous void with revenue, and service business shutter up because they can't compete against these "companies" that essentially exist off the theft of municipal wealth.

But I'm an evil liberal so I must not believe that.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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This is another reason why congestion pricing is smart policy.

I'm interested to see which US city takes the plunge.

NYC has been edging toward it again but not looking like it's going to move yet, BDB has moved out of outright opposition at least. Could be a different story next year when the L train shuts down.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,254
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I'd honestly rather see the end of Uber/Lyft/Air BnB altogether. These are municipally destructive enterprises from nearly every angle. Cities see a cavernous void with revenue, and service business shutter up because they can't compete against these "companies" that essentially exist off the theft of municipal wealth.

But I'm an evil liberal so I must not believe that.
I agree with you in places that has good public transportation, taxis and lodging. But I do think they bring value to places like OKC that has basically no PT and no taxi service. Airbnb also brings value to places like Breckenridge that have a ton of vacation homes that would sit empty 90% of the time without Airbnb, and the city still charges lodging taxes on them. There also would never be enough hotel capacity without the rental homes. Hotels also just don't offer the same ammenties as most vacation homes.