Who thinks they know about NBA basketball?

[spanky]

dammit, after i do all the crap about GS, now u say it's covered? fak.

anyway... regarding cleveland... if they drafted so well... they wouldn't have been in rebuilding mode between the days of "mark price, craig ehlo, larry nance, & brad dougherty" and 2003.

 

[schizoid]

Originally posted by: spanky
1993 - had #3 pick... GS took webber and traded for webber. it would have been a good trade if weber could've stayed healthy. he later decided to skip town, so they were left with nothing.

1994 - had #16 pic... cliff rozier

1995 - had #1 pick... joe smith

1996 - had #11 pick... todd fuller

1997 - had #8 pick... adonal foyle

1998 - had #5 pick... vince carter

1999 - had #21 pick - jeff foster

2000 - had #55 pick... chris porter

2001 - had #5 pick... jason richardson

2002 - had #3 pick... mike dunleavy jr

2003 - had #11 pick... Mickaël Pietrus

golden state seems to be drafting ok the past few years, but it's kinda early to tell. of the others between 1993-2000... seems like they bombed every one except 1998 (when they got carter and trade for jamison).

I forgot about the Joe Smith thing. That REALLY hurts their grade. Yeah, so they'd end up being toward the bottom then. Not the worst, but probably somewhere in the 8-12 worst range.

But yeah...you also have to consider that they had Nellie at the helm for some of that. He's a crackhead. And it's really hard to overlook their 2001 draft. And you gotta give teams credit for getting gems in the second round (espcially now, with guys like Redd and Arenas). Getting value for your pick is so much harder now because people are looking for the Pejas and Kobes instead of being "scared" of them (read: why teams didn't pull the trigger on T-mac).

 

[spanky]

yeah... drafting is hard. i know its easy to nitpick now... hindsight is always 20/20. but really... take a look at some of clevelands other gems.

 

[schizoid]

Originally posted by: spanky
dammit, after i do all the crap about GS, now u say it's covered? fak.

anyway... regarding cleveland... if they drafted so well... they wouldn't have been in rebuilding mode between the days of "mark price, craig ehlo, larry nance, & brad dougherty" and 2003.

They just could never put it together aaaaaaand....(drum roll please): Shawn Kemp KILLED them. Remember that deal? They'd just turned Ty Hill into an all-star, along with T-brandon, who was an all-star caliber point guard himself. And they sent them both to Seattle (by way of Milwakee) for Kemp. Set the franchise back 4 years.

They had a decent team in the last couple years of Wilkens (the Derek Anderson, Brandon, Cedric Henderson years). But then Kemp came, ate, and that was it. In the mean time, they've managed to draft themselves out of the hole. I mean, what's the Sonic's excuse? Or the Hawks?

EDIT: I just don't see their misses. Ok, so Bob Sura wasn't a great pick, but that's late in the first round where it's hard to find talent. And he's not that bad anyway. And I think the jury is still out on Diop. As far as Mihm goes, well, he's not a bad player, and that draft is universally considered the worst in the last 30 years (a reason why the Bulls suck so bad...they had 2 top 10 picks at the absolute WORST time). But I think their hits on Andre Miller, Lebron, Boozer (in the second round...mad props), Zydrunas and DA clearly show they're doing okay. Wagner and Diop are questionable (but I swear, Wagner's going to be a star) and Mihm and Sura aint so good. So where's the horrible drafting?

 

[andrepatton]

I definitely dont see golden state as the worse...although they did have a bad streak.

Wizards have been very bad...so has the Knicks.

Im gonna say the Knicks have been the worse at making decisions.

 

[schizoid]

Originally posted by: andrepatton
I definitely dont see golden state as the worse...although they did have a bad streak.

Wizards have been very bad...so has the Knicks.

Im gonna say the Knicks have been the worse at making decisions.

The knicks are hard to judge because they've been so good that they rarely have a decent pick. It's REALLY hard in the NBA to get real quality at anything past 12. So if you screw up the number 17 pick, no one can really blame you (which is why you have to give props for teams finding talent in the second round.)

If it was me? I'd say the Grizz. That team has had a lottery pick EVERY year since its inception (well, except last year), and has only made the right pick, I think, once.

As for worst managed? The Sixers. The amount of talent that team has thrown away is staggering.

 

[iamme]

this is a tough question. not only do you take into consideration who the team picked, but who they could have gotten as well.

i haven't had a chance to do a lot of research, but off the top of my head, i think Washington Wizards/Bullets haven't really made many good draft choices:

(just taking into consideration the 1st round picks)

94 - Juwon Howard (missed out on Jalen Rose, Eddie Jones, Brian Grant)
95 - Rasheed Wallace (by far their best pick, although they just missed out on KG!)
96 - no pick (missed out on Kobe, Stojakovic, Steve Nash, Jermaine O'Neal, Illgauskas)
97 - no pick (forfeited their pick to resign Juwon Howard....missed out on Tmac, Duncan, Bobby Jackson)
98 - no pick (weak draft...didn't really miss out on much)
99 - Richard Hamilton (good pick, but traded him away for gimpy Jerry Stackhouse...also missed out on Shawn Marion, Ron Artest and Corey Maggette)
00 - no pick (not sure why....weak draft as well)
01- Kwame Brown (finally showing some life this year, so this may have been a good pick)
02 - Jared Jefferies and Juan Dixon (weak draft....but missed out on Tayshaun Prince, Carlos Boozer, Kareem Rush)
03 - Jarvis Hayes

those last few years were MJ's picks. pretty crappy. i think that Washington hasn't done squat in the draft to make them a decent team.

anyone find a worse team?

 

[cchen]

Originally posted by: schizoid
But so does trading Kobe for Vlade.

Do you actually think Charlotte wanted to trade Kobe? He wanted to go to LA and wasn't going to sign with Charlotte.

 

[andrepatton]

It was a tough question to ask. Knicks have had bad choices...and picked bad players


The Grizz? Hell no. They drafted:
Mike Bibby
Steve Francis (although he refused to play..still drafted him)
Drew Gooden (shows promise in Orlando)
Pau Gasol (playing great now)
Shareef Abdur Rahim

Thats good enough right there.

Only draft pick they really messed up was Antonio Daniels.

 

[macwinlin]

I just looked at the Atlanta Hawks draft history, and asside from the '95 draft that got them Alan Henderson, 1999 draft where they got Jason Terry (traded Jumaine Jones away to the 76ers) and the 2001 draft to get Pau Gasol (but traded the very same day to Grizzlies) and Jamaal Tinsley (also traded to the Pacers), they haven't had a good record, IMO.

 

[schizoid]

Originally posted by: iamme
this is a tough question. not only do you take into consideration who the team picked, but who they could have gotten as well.

i haven't had a chance to do a lot of research, but off the top of my head, i think Washington Wizards/Bullets haven't really made many good draft choices:

(just taking into consideration the 1st round picks)

94 - Juwon Howard (missed out on Jalen Rose, Eddie Jones, Brian Grant)
95 - Rasheed Wallace (by far their best pick, although they just missed out on KG!)
96 - no pick (missed out on Kobe, Stojakovic, Steve Nash, Jermaine O'Neal, Illgauskas)
97 - no pick (forfeited their pick to resign Juwon Howard....missed out on Tmac, Duncan, Bobby Jackson)
98 - no pick (weak draft...didn't really miss out on much)
99 - Richard Hamilton (good pick, but traded him away for gimpy Jerry Stackhouse...also missed out on Shawn Marion, Ron Artest and Corey Maggette)
00 - no pick (not sure why....weak draft as well)
01- Kwame Brown (finally showing some life this year, so this may have been a good pick)
02 - Jared Jefferies and Juan Dixon (weak draft....but missed out on Tayshaun Prince, Carlos Boozer, Kareem Rush)
03 - Jarvis Hayes

those last few years were MJ's picks. pretty crappy. i think that Washington hasn't done squat in the draft to make them a decent team.

anyone find a worse team?

Alright...like I said...the Wiz are a good candidate...but how about this:

94 - didn't exist
95 - Big Country Reeves (out of the NBA). One pick short of KG. Could have been Kurt Thomas or Micheal Finley
96 - Shareef Abdur-Rahim. Could have been just about anyone (Kobe, Marbury, Ray Allen, Jermaine O'neal, 'Toine Walker)
97 - Antionio Daniels (!!!!) Could have been T-mac, Derek Anderson, Mo Taylor, B-Jax
98 - Mike Bibby. Could have been Jamison, Carter, Nowitski, Peirce, Bonzi Wells, etc etc)
99 - Steve Francis. They KNEW he wouldn't play for them, but they drafted him anyway. Forced a trade for Micheal Dickerson (good player, almost retired now due to injury) and Othella Harrington). Could have had (without problems) Baron Davis, Lamar Odom, Wally World, Shawn Marion, Andre Miller, Magette, AK-47, etc
00 - Stromile Swift. WHO? Could have had Hedo, Jamal Crawford, Mike Miller, Q-Rich, Mo-pete
01 - Pau Gausol. Good pick. One problem. It cost them their only other good pick, Shareef. So that doesn't really count. Shane Battier. Decent pick. Other than people that no one knew about (Tony Parker and Arenas) probably the best guy on the board. Well, maybe Richard Jefferson
02 - Drew Gooden. Over Amare? Wagner? Wilcox? Jiri Welch? Tayshaun Prince and Boozer? Traded for the rookie of the year in the worst draft in recent memory. Shows you how much Jerry West thought about the pick.
03 - No pick. Good thing they got Otis Thorpe back in 97, eh?

No team has bungled the draft like that. A lottery pick every year, and they didn't do anything with it. This even looks worse when you consider that J-will is only now starting to come on.

As for the Sixers...well, I gotta study some mathematical logic (Godel numbers, anyone?). We'll get to that later.

PS: If you're interested in this sort of crap, I'm likely going to be doing some writing for NBAdraft.net sometime soon (when I can find the time) breaking down teams like this (in way more depth though).

 

[cchen]

Originally posted by: schizoid

Washington? That's a possibility, although it's too early to give up on Jeffries yet. But if he, Jarvis Hayes or Kwame doesn't step forward soon, they might be a good target. They were also, I might add, hurt by trades and Jordan, and don't have the quality/number of picks they should have for a team that bad.

Jeffries was hurt all of last season and is playing decently this season. Kwame is still very young, and very raw, and Jarvis Hayes is a rookie with great potential. How quickly can you expect them to step forward? The last Wizards game I went to, Jarvis Hayes played extremely well and will probably develop even more next season.

 

[schizoid]

Originally posted by: cchen

Originally posted by: schizoid

Washington? That's a possibility, although it's too early to give up on Jeffries yet. But if he, Jarvis Hayes or Kwame doesn't step forward soon, they might be a good target. They were also, I might add, hurt by trades and Jordan, and don't have the quality/number of picks they should have for a team that bad.

Jeffries was hurt all of last season and is playing decently this season. Kwame is still very young, and very raw, and Jarvis Hayes is a rookie with great potential. How quickly can you expect them to step forward? The last Wizards game I went to, Jarvis Hayes played extremely well and will probably develop even more next season.

Errr...thats what I said.

Although look at guys like Wade, and Hinrich this year, and Amare and Caron Butler last year. Here were guys that weren't the "name" guys (the Carmelos, Yaos, Lebrons) and theyre making serious impacts as rookies. So, it's possible.

I didn't say it's time to give up on them, but I'm saying they have to step up. Soon.

 

[andrepatton]

Originally posted by: schizoid
94 - didn't exist
95 - Big Country Reeves (out of the NBA). One pick short of KG. Could have been Kurt Thomas or Micheal Finley
96 - Shareef Abdur-Rahim. Could have been just about anyone (Kobe, Marbury, Ray Allen, Jermaine O'neal, 'Toine Walker)
97 - Antionio Daniels (!!!!) Could have been T-mac, Derek Anderson, Mo Taylor, B-Jax
98 - Mike Bibby. Could have been Jamison, Carter, Nowitski, Peirce, Bonzi Wells, etc etc)
99 - Steve Francis. They KNEW he wouldn't play for them, but they drafted him anyway. Forced a trade for Micheal Dickerson (good player, almost retired now due to injury) and Othella Harrington). Could have had (without problems) Baron Davis, Lamar Odom, Wally World, Shawn Marion, Andre Miller, Magette, AK-47, etc
00 - Stromile Swift. WHO? Could have had Hedo, Jamal Crawford, Mike Miller, Q-Rich, Mo-pete
01 - Pau Gausol. Good pick. One problem. It cost them their only other good pick, Shareef. So that doesn't really count. Shane Battier. Decent pick. Other than people that no one knew about (Tony Parker and Arenas) probably the best guy on the board. Well, maybe Richard Jefferson
02 - Drew Gooden. Over Amare? Wagner? Wilcox? Jiri Welch? Tayshaun Prince and Boozer? Traded for the rookie of the year in the worst draft in recent memory. Shows you how much Jerry West thought about the pick.
03 - No pick. Good thing they got Otis Thorpe back in 97, eh?

No team has bungled the draft like that. A lottery pick every year, and they didn't do anything with it. This even looks worse when you consider that J-will is only now starting to come on.

I disagree. 95 was a bad pick.

96 they were looking for a C/PF, not a guard. Wny draft a guard when you're not looking for one? Unless its a once in a lifetime chance. Didnt want to take a gamble on O'neal because he was fresh out of high school. Plus remember the poor years he had in Portland? And I would still take SARS over Antoine Walker.

97 bad pick

98 what the hell is wrong w/ mike bibby? did he NOT lead asu to a national title? that was a great pick imo. Sure in hindsight you could list players who are arguably better but that was a fine pick.

99 steve francis was a great pick. they were praying if they used their pick on him he wouldn't bytch out and force a trade.

00 too soon to tell on stromile...but i will admit Qrich would've been better.

01 pau was fine

02 yes...drew over amare. no one though amare would develop the way he did. thats why he went 9th instead of 2nd. wagner? i cant believe you even brought that up. a 6'2 average tri state guard who chucks up a lot of shots and does things to get the crowd hyped, but has proven to be useless. wilcox hasnt proven he's better than gooden yet. boozer dropped to the 2nd round...so dont just put the heat on memphis, but it on the entire nba for passing him up.

 

[schizoid]

Originally posted by: andrepatton

Originally posted by: schizoid
94 - didn't exist
95 - Big Country Reeves (out of the NBA). One pick short of KG. Could have been Kurt Thomas or Micheal Finley
96 - Shareef Abdur-Rahim. Could have been just about anyone (Kobe, Marbury, Ray Allen, Jermaine O'neal, 'Toine Walker)
97 - Antionio Daniels (!!!!) Could have been T-mac, Derek Anderson, Mo Taylor, B-Jax
98 - Mike Bibby. Could have been Jamison, Carter, Nowitski, Peirce, Bonzi Wells, etc etc)
99 - Steve Francis. They KNEW he wouldn't play for them, but they drafted him anyway. Forced a trade for Micheal Dickerson (good player, almost retired now due to injury) and Othella Harrington). Could have had (without problems) Baron Davis, Lamar Odom, Wally World, Shawn Marion, Andre Miller, Magette, AK-47, etc
00 - Stromile Swift. WHO? Could have had Hedo, Jamal Crawford, Mike Miller, Q-Rich, Mo-pete
01 - Pau Gausol. Good pick. One problem. It cost them their only other good pick, Shareef. So that doesn't really count. Shane Battier. Decent pick. Other than people that no one knew about (Tony Parker and Arenas) probably the best guy on the board. Well, maybe Richard Jefferson
02 - Drew Gooden. Over Amare? Wagner? Wilcox? Jiri Welch? Tayshaun Prince and Boozer? Traded for the rookie of the year in the worst draft in recent memory. Shows you how much Jerry West thought about the pick.
03 - No pick. Good thing they got Otis Thorpe back in 97, eh?

No team has bungled the draft like that. A lottery pick every year, and they didn't do anything with it. This even looks worse when you consider that J-will is only now starting to come on.

I disagree. 95 was a bad pick.

96 they were looking for a C/PF, not a guard. Wny draft a guard when you're not looking for one? Unless its a once in a lifetime chance. Didnt want to take a gamble on O'neal because he was fresh out of high school. Plus remember the poor years he had in Portland? And I would still take SARS over Antoine Walker.

97 bad pick

98 what the hell is wrong w/ mike bibby? did he NOT lead asu to a national title? that was a great pick imo. Sure in hindsight you could list players who are arguably better but that was a fine pick.

99 steve francis was a great pick. they were praying if they used their pick on him he wouldn't bytch out and force a trade.

00 too soon to tell on stromile...but i will admit Qrich would've been better.

01 pau was fine

02 yes...drew over amare. no one though amare would develop the way he did. thats why he went 9th instead of 2nd. wagner? i cant believe you even brought that up. a 6'2 average tri state guard who chucks up a lot of shots and does things to get the crowd hyped, but has proven to be useless. wilcox hasnt proven he's better than gooden yet. boozer dropped to the 2nd round...so dont just put the heat on memphis, but it on the entire nba for passing him up.

Well, I guess we disagree then. I think you CAN blame the Grizz for the Francis thing, and regardless of who's fault it is, they have nothing to show for the number 2 pick in the draft. YOu just can't do that in the NBA. And that draft was reasonably deep. The Bibby thing...well, he was a decent PG when he was in Vancouver, but nowhere near the player he is now. Yes, the Kings are better, but again, what did that pick net them? It netted them Jason Williams. If they'd drafted the Truth, what do you think that would have gotten them in trade? Or how about Dirk? See my point? They didn't get the value they could have gotten for Bibby. He was NOT the second best player on the board. During his tenure in Vancouver, he was probably closer to 8th or something. Now, maybe he's gone up a couple of notches, but that doesn't do the Grizz any good, does it? And as for Pau, you can say that Reef was a good pick or Pau was a good pick. Not both, considering they had to give up one to get the other. And Gooden is going to be a decent 15/9 guy in this league, but Wager (yes, just you wait) and Wilcox have higher ceilings.

All in all, if you look at what they came away with, after their first 10 years in the league (and again, this is taking into account that J-will is playing well...what if they didn't hire Hubie and he was playing the way he used to play?) they really haven't gotten what a team SHOULD get for the number of super high picks they have recieved.

 

[andrepatton]

This whole discussion is kinda unfair. The Grizz have been a horrible team for the past 10 years, therefore they've always gotten good picks. We're taking the pick they chose...looking down the board and listing players who are now better. MOST of the players they chose have had just as much potential as anyone else on the board. Now it has all payed off because Memphis is having a good year. I definitely think the Warriors have passed up on more talent, although they made up for a lot w/ Arenas.

And this statement is comming from a Warrior fan.

 

[schizoid]

Actually...it just occured to me that the Bulls should be up in this mix.

But that's only because they had two top 5 picks in the worst draft, J-Will is like, dead, and they were stupid enough to think Elton Brand wasn't going to get any better.

So, yeah, they might be a decent choice. But, then again, Hinrich is a great pick, and they've only had lottery picks post Jordan (stacey King notwithstanding).

Well, here's a task for y'alls out there who are trolling this thread: Come up with, for a given year (I'm going to end up doing this for the past 10 years for my NBAdraft.net stuff) a list of the top 15 best players, regardless of draft position. I.e., in an excel spreadsheet, list all the players that were drafted, their position (1st, 2nd, 43rd, etc), and then rank the top 15. The results might surprise you (you'll get an appreciation for how few serious impact players there are in a given draft, and how important it is to "hit" on one of them).

Im interested, because I'm going to use my personal rankings in my analysis, but I want to see if it's consistant with some other peoples.

PM me or something, perhaps, if you're interested.

Also, as a PS: Where do most of you get your NBA information from (draft and trade histories, etc?)

 

[andrepatton]

nbadraft.net
hoopshype.com

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
I know that the NBA sucks compared to college ball.

I know that the basic basketball rulebook has been thrown in the trash and pissed on by the NBA.
I know that NBA players pretty much don't get called for traveling.

I know that NBA players basically goof off for the first 3 quarters in the regular season, then actually give an effort in the 4th.


Those are the basics, what else do you need to know?

nba is FAR more disciplined than college ball

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: Kaz8teEN
i do...go kings

sac town woot!!! (coming from someone who lives in LA )

 

[schizoid]

Originally posted by: shady06

Originally posted by: Kaz8teEN
i do...go kings

sac town woot!!! (coming from someone who lives in LA )

Ack! I'm a HUGE Kings fan.

I NEVER have anyone to watch games with. (and damn don't I miss KMAX or News10 or whatever!). Tell me you live close to the South Bay and you wanna hit up sports bars and cheer on the kings!!?!

 

[masterxfob]

Originally posted by: schizoid
Actually...it just occured to me that the Bulls should be up in this mix.

But that's only because they had two top 5 picks in the worst draft, J-Will is like, dead, and they were stupid enough to think Elton Brand wasn't going to get any better.

So, yeah, they might be a decent choice. But, then again, Hinrich is a great pick, and they've only had lottery picks post Jordan (stacey King notwithstanding).

Well, here's a task for y'alls out there who are trolling this thread: Come up with, for a given year (I'm going to end up doing this for the past 10 years for my NBAdraft.net stuff) a list of the top 15 best players, regardless of draft position. I.e., in an excel spreadsheet, list all the players that were drafted, their position (1st, 2nd, 43rd, etc), and then rank the top 15. The results might surprise you (you'll get an appreciation for how few serious impact players there are in a given draft, and how important it is to "hit" on one of them).

Im interested, because I'm going to use my personal rankings in my analysis, but I want to see if it's consistant with some other peoples.

PM me or something, perhaps, if you're interested.

Also, as a PS: Where do most of you get your NBA information from (draft and trade histories, etc?)

i'm getting a feeling that you're comsumed with fantasy basketball

 

[masterxfob]

Originally posted by: schizoid

Originally posted by: shady06

Originally posted by: Kaz8teEN
i do...go kings

sac town woot!!! (coming from someone who lives in LA )

Ack! I'm a HUGE Kings fan.

I NEVER have anyone to watch games with. (and damn don't I miss KMAX or News10 or whatever!). Tell me you live close to the South Bay and you wanna hit up sports bars and cheer on the kings!!?!

the traitor lives in LA, as do i.........

i've been a lakers fan since the early 90's and i still am, but i've got to be honest and say that the kings are a much more exciting team to watch. fvcking triangle offense is so damned boring :|

 

[schizoid]

Originally posted by: masterxfob

Originally posted by: schizoid
Actually...it just occured to me that the Bulls should be up in this mix.

But that's only because they had two top 5 picks in the worst draft, J-Will is like, dead, and they were stupid enough to think Elton Brand wasn't going to get any better.

So, yeah, they might be a decent choice. But, then again, Hinrich is a great pick, and they've only had lottery picks post Jordan (stacey King notwithstanding).

Well, here's a task for y'alls out there who are trolling this thread: Come up with, for a given year (I'm going to end up doing this for the past 10 years for my NBAdraft.net stuff) a list of the top 15 best players, regardless of draft position. I.e., in an excel spreadsheet, list all the players that were drafted, their position (1st, 2nd, 43rd, etc), and then rank the top 15. The results might surprise you (you'll get an appreciation for how few serious impact players there are in a given draft, and how important it is to "hit" on one of them).

Im interested, because I'm going to use my personal rankings in my analysis, but I want to see if it's consistant with some other peoples.

PM me or something, perhaps, if you're interested.

Also, as a PS: Where do most of you get your NBA information from (draft and trade histories, etc?)

i'm getting a feeling that you're comsumed with fantasy basketball

Couldn't give a crap about Fant. Hoops. Haven't had a team since like 98 or something, I think.

I just like the NBA, and I was just seeing if anyone else out there had a deeper understanding of what it takes to build a winner and some of the other intricacies of the sport versus the average fan (i.e. the type of person that thinks since football players are big and strong, they figure they must be stupid, not understanding that football is the most cerbral sport, by far...). Anyway, I just wanted to see if anyone else thinks about this crap, or if it's just me.



EDIT: I was born in NorCackilackey (Chico, specifically), so I'm not really a traitor.