Who should we believe?

tallest1

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Jul 11, 2001
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In the past couple months, we've seen people exiting the administration's ranks and writting books or speaking out against the country's policies. I recognize that there are folks out there who refuse to mark these people as *coughFoxNewscough* credible *coughbushapologistscough*. We've had resignations from

RICHARD CLARKE - NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL/CYBERSPACE SECURITY

GEN. TOMMY FRANKS - U.S. ARMY CENTCOM

DAVID KAY - WEAPONS INSPECTOR

JOHN O'NEILL - FBI

RICHARD PERLE - PENTAGON ADVISORY BOARD CHAIRMAN

GENERAL ANTHONY ZINNI

And many more, yet people are claiming that they don't know jack. So tell me, who exactly should we list as a credible source? If Powell resigned and wrote a book, should we believe a word he says?
 

tallest1

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Jul 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: maddogchen
What has Gen. Tommy Franks said or wrote about?

According to this recent thread, he "uttered a string of obscenities when the Pentagon told him to come up with an Iraq war plan in the midst of fighting another conflict.", but I guess that doesn't count as speaking out. I'll gladly take his name out of the above list if you insist and even replace it with another name or two ;)
 

GoPackGo

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Oct 10, 2003
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Originally posted by: tallest1
Originally posted by: maddogchen
What has Gen. Tommy Franks said or wrote about?

According to this recent thread, he "uttered a string of obscenities when the Pentagon told him to come up with an Iraq war plan in the midst of fighting another conflict.", but I guess that doesn't count as speaking out. I'll gladly take his name out of the above list if you insist and even replace it with another name or two ;)

I wonder what Eisenhower and Patton and MacArthur did when they had to plan and lead a multi-front war, certainly not cry home to mama...they went and took care of business.
 

Perknose

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Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: tallest1
Originally posted by: maddogchen What has Gen. Tommy Franks said or wrote about?
According to this recent thread, he "uttered a string of obscenities when the Pentagon told him to come up with an Iraq war plan in the midst of fighting another conflict.", but I guess that doesn't count as speaking out. I'll gladly take his name out of the above list if you insist and even replace it with another name or two ;)
I wonder what Eisenhower and Patton and MacArthur did when they had to plan and lead a multi-front war, certainly not cry home to mama...they went and took care of business.

Well, during WWll, none of them were directed by Roosevelt to divert critically needed men and material from our fight against Germany and Japan (who, like Al Quada, had actually attacked us) to shasay on some excellent adventure against, say, Spain, even though Spain, like Iraq, was a facist dictatorship whose own government had slaughtered tens of thousands of its own citizens, and whose facist way of life was inimical to our democratic American ideals.

And, sparky, Gen. Tommy Franks didn't "cry home to mama" when told of BushBaby's Bullsh!t, he is said to have uttered a "string of obscenities" which may well have included, "Bush" "your mama" "that mama's boy" and/or "that little mamafusker".

There are a number of towering Americans mentioned here:

General and President Dwight David Eishenhower
President Franklin Delano Roosevelt
General Douglas McArthur
General George S. Patton


And then there is Bush.:|

 

conjur

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Jun 7, 2001
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How about some information from Paul O'Neill (this is a review of the first couple of chapters of Suskind's book):

Cheney persuaded O'Neill to take the position as Treasury Secretary. They'd known each other since the Nixon days (as an aside, Rumsfeld was long-time colleague of Cheney, too.) Cheney also was aware that O'Neill was close friends with Alan Greenspan and thought O'Neill would be a good ally in communicating the Administration's economic policy to Greenspan. O'Neill and Greenspan go back to the Ford administration and, in the mid-80s, Greenspan championed O'Neill becoming a director at Alcoa and, later, the CEO of Alcoa where O'Neill worked wonders. Over the next 15 years, O'Neill and Greenspan would meet every few months.

O'Neill and Greenspan were both of the mindset that the yearly fiscal surpluses would lead to a $5 trillion surplus after 10 years. This would lead to the ability to reduce the national deficit and allow a reform of Social Security (which would easily take half of that surplus.) Bush's proposed tax cuts would take much of the other half, leaving not much room for deficit reduction and also making fiscal responsibility a very important aspect of the budget process. Spending more could lead to larger deficits should the economy sour and lessen or take away the forecasted surplus.

Larry Lindsey was slated to head the National Economic Council. The NEC was created by Clinton to act as an honest broker between the Treasury Dept. and the President's Council of Economic Advisors. However, Lindsey was showing he was more partisan; in favor of Bush's aggressive tax cuts and no triggers or conditions placed on those cuts based upon there being a surplus and the size of it. Bush wanted tax cuts, placing Social Security reform on the backburner.

O'Neill and Greenspan, both moderate and pragmatic, were leery of a return to fiscal irresponsibility and spending any surplus and ignoring the deficit. O'Neill worried about Lindsey's partisan views and made a note:
Get an agreement for [Lindsey] to be the honest broker not the unilateral advisor to the [President] or get him out of the broker role.

In early February, Lindsey wrote a scathing memo criticizing the Office of Tax Analysis for not having a model of forecasts based upon Bush's planned tax cuts. It stated they should have had one prepared as far back as during the campaign in 2000 since Bush stood firmly by his tax cut promise. The OTA had only been working officially for the new President for two days and some members of the team were not even on board yet.

This was the breach O'Neill had feared: The "honest broker" was an advocate. Hard-eyed analysis would be painted as disloyalty to the Bush administration.

O'Neill responded:
Larry: This is bureaucratic chickensh*t.
You must have something better to do with your time
than send me memos such as this one.


On January 30, 2001, Bush's first Principal's meeting was held. The topic: Mideast Policy. O'Neill, as Treasury Secretary, was a member of the Principals.

The meeting started off discussing the Arab-Israeli conflict:

"I'm not going by past reputations when it comes to Sharon," Bush said. "I'm going to take him at face value. We'll work on a relationship based on how things go."

Bush had met Sharon only briefly, once before, in Dec. 1998. "Just saw him that one time. We flew over the Palestinian camps," Bush said sourly. "Looked real bad down there. I don't see much we can do over there at this point. I think it's time to pull out of that situation."

And that was it, according to O'Neill and several other people in the room. The Arab-Israeli conflict was a mess, and the United States would disengage.

Powell said such a move might be hasty. Powell stressed that a pull back by the U.S. would unleash Sharon and the Israeli army. "The consequences of that could be dire," Powell said, "especially for the Palestinians."

Bush shrugged. "Maybe that's the best way to get things back in balance."

Powell seemed startled.

"Sometimes a show of strength by one side can really clarify things," Bush said.

Then the topic turned to Iraq. Tenet showed photos of an alleged bio/chem weapons factory. When asked by O'Neill what evidence there was, Tenet mentioned some circumstantial evidence but admitted there was "no confirming intelligence."

O'Neill later inquired about the U.S.'s ability to blast Saddam's anti-aircraft batteries. Tenet said that intelligence was so poor that targeting military installations or weapons factories would "be going in there blind."

The meeting adjourned with Powell tasked to draw up a new sanctions regime, Rumsfeld to "examine our military options", Tenet to improve current intelligence, and O'Neill to financially squeeze Saddam.

10 days into the new administration and 30 years' effort (from Kissinger to Clinton's last-gasp effort before leaving office) to bring peace to the Arab-Israeli conflict was gone. In its place, Iraq, a grainy picture, perhaps misleading. And no mention of bin Laden, Al Qaeda, or terrorism in general.
 

sMiLeYz

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Feb 3, 2003
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Every single one of them is credible, they worked within the administration, or for the government at one time or another.

Well a heck of alot more credible than NewSux, FauxNews, Rush "Pill poppin" Limbaugh, Ann "Crazy" Coulter, Bill "Anal" O'Reilly, Micheal Savage, Sean Hannity and co that attack their characters. I don't listen to talkin heads myself, why anyone would listen to somebody reinterpretings their news for them is beyond me. Not even Micheal Moore nor Al "no longer funny" Franken.

 

Perknose

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Originally posted by: conjur
How about some information from Paul O'Neill (this is a review of the first couple of chapters of Suskind's book): Cheney persuaded O'Neill to take the position as Treasury Secretary. They'd known each other since the Nixon days (as an aside, Rumsfeld was long-time colleague of Cheney, too.) Cheney also was aware that O'Neill was close friends with Alan Greenspan and thought O'Neill would be a good ally in communicating the Administration's economic policy to Greenspan. O'Neill and Greenspan go back to the Ford administration and, in the mid-80s, Greenspan championed O'Neill becoming a director at Alcoa and, later, the CEO of Alcoa where O'Neill worked wonders. Over the next 15 years, O'Neill and Greenspan would meet every few months. O'Neill and Greenspan were both of the mindset that the yearly fiscal surpluses would lead to a $5 trillion surplus after 10 years. This would lead to the ability to reduce the national deficit and allow a reform of Social Security (which would easily take half of that surplus.) Bush's proposed tax cuts would take much of the other half, leaving not much room for deficit reduction and also making fiscal responsibility a very important aspect of the budget process. Spending more could lead to larger deficits should the economy sour and lessen or take away the forecasted surplus. Larry Lindsey was slated to head the National Economic Council. The NEC was created by Clinton to act as an honest broker between the Treasury Dept. and the President's Council of Economic Advisors. However, Lindsey was showing he was more partisan; in favor of Bush's aggressive tax cuts and no triggers or conditions placed on those cuts based upon there being a surplus and the size of it. Bush wanted tax cuts, placing Social Security reform on the backburner. O'Neill and Greenspan, both moderate and pragmatic, were leery of a return to fiscal irresponsibility and spending any surplus and ignoring the deficit. O'Neill worried about Lindsey's partisan views and made a note:
Get an agreement for [Lindsey] to be the honest broker not the unilateral advisor to the [President] or get him out of the broker role.
In early February, Lindsey wrote a scathing memo criticizing the Office of Tax Analysis for not having a model of forecasts based upon Bush's planned tax cuts. It stated they should have had one prepared as far back as during the campaign in 2000 since Bush stood firmly by his tax cut promise. The OTA had only been working officially for the new President for two days and some members of the team were not even on board yet. This was the breach O'Neill had feared: The "honest broker" was an advocate. Hard-eyed analysis would be painted as disloyalty to the Bush administration. O'Neill responded:
Larry: This is bureaucratic chickensh*t. You must have something better to do with your time than send me memos such as this one.
On January 30, 2001, Bush's first Principal's meeting was held. The topic: Mideast Policy. O'Neill, as Treasury Secretary, was a member of the Principals. The meeting started off discussing the Arab-Israeli conflict: "I'm not going by past reputations when it comes to Sharon," Bush said. "I'm going to take him at face value. We'll work on a relationship based on how things go." Bush had met Sharon only briefly, once before, in Dec. 1998. "Just saw him that one time. We flew over the Palestinian camps," Bush said sourly. "Looked real bad down there. I don't see much we can do over there at this point. I think it's time to pull out of that situation." And that was it, according to O'Neill and several other people in the room. The Arab-Israeli conflict was a mess, and the United States would disengage. Powell said such a move might be hasty. Powell stressed that a pull back by the U.S. would unleash Sharon and the Israeli army. "The consequences of that could be dire," Powell said, "especially for the Palestinians." Bush shrugged. "Maybe that's the best way to get things back in balance." Powell seemed startled. "Sometimes a show of strength by one side can really clarify things," Bush said. Then the topic turned to Iraq. Tenet showed photos of an alleged bio/chem weapons factory. When asked by O'Neill what evidence there was, Tenet mentioned some circumstantial evidence but admitted there was "no confirming intelligence." O'Neill later inquired about the U.S.'s ability to blast Saddam's anti-aircraft batteries. Tenet said that intelligence was so poor that targeting military installations or weapons factories would "be going in there blind." The meeting adjourned with Powell tasked to draw up a new sanctions regime, Rumsfeld to "examine our military options", Tenet to improve current intelligence, and O'Neill to financially squeeze Saddam. 10 days into the new administration and 30 years' effort (from Kissinger to Clinton's last-gasp effort before leaving office) to bring piece to the Arab-Israeli conflict was gone. In its place, Iraq, a grainy picture, perhaps misleading. And no mention of bin Laden, Al Qaeda, or terrorism in general.

Excellent read, conjur.
 

Gaard

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Feb 17, 2002
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I'm betting that once this admin is out, Powell's book (and you know there'll be one) will probably be the least weighted down with fluff.
 

conjur

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Jun 7, 2001
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Originally posted by: Gaard
I'm betting that once this admin is out, Powell's book (and you know there'll be one) will probably be the least weighted down with fluff.

And the Bush-God fanboys seem to be avoiding this thread like the plague.

They can't refute the truth.
 

Gaard

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Feb 17, 2002
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Mark this thread.

When Powell's book comes out, if there is anything remotely damning in it, we'll hear how he's unreliable. ;)
 

tallest1

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Jul 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: Gaard
I'm betting that once this admin is out, Powell's book (and you know there'll be one) will probably be the least weighted down with fluff.

Unfortunately, While I certainly respect the guy, I fear that powell is going to write a book that attempts at offending no one. People who read up on the interactions between him and the admin probably know that he is a bit unsettled by what Bush does but you'd be damned before you hear him say a bad word about his boss. While I grossly hate the term, he'll probably be an Uncle Tom for Bush until the day he dies.


But anyway, we haven't heard of a single credible person from the conservatives on this forum. Come on guys, we're begging ya :p Whose writings will be credible and how will it compare to what we've seen so far?

edit:spelling
 

tallest1

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Jul 11, 2001
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Geez, if no one is going to fully answer the question, can someone of conservative leaning at least tell me if Powell is credible or not?
 

Zephyr106

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Jul 2, 2003
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Originally posted by: tallest1
Geez, if no one is going to fully answer the question, can someone of conservative leaning at least tell me if Powell is credible or not?

As a conservative, I can honestly tell you Powell has spent too many years at the State Department, poisoned by the unclean ideas of international cooperation and the religion of UN worshipment. Even in his days as a soldier he was known for not wanting to cowboy-it-up. Neoconservatives are the only Americans these days with the brains and the balls to successfully establish global US hegemony and dominion over lesser nations.

Zephyr
 

OneOfTheseDays

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Jan 15, 2000
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they have nothing to say because they know they are wrong. Their partisanship is so strong that they will cling to it until their deathbeds. They will never admit they are wrong and will continue to attack these characters and misdirect attention towards other matters.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
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Originally posted by: Zephyr106
Originally posted by: tallest1

Geez, if no one is going to fully answer the question, can someone of conservative leaning at least tell me if Powell is credible or not?



As a conservative, I can honestly tell you Powell has spent too many years at the State Department, poisoned by the unclean ideas of international cooperation and the religion of UN worshipment. Even in his days as a soldier he was known for not wanting to cowboy-it-up. Neoconservatives are the only Americans these days with the brains and the balls to successfully establish global US hegemony and dominion over lesser nations.



Zephyr

You mean to say that Neocons are the only ones lacking the brains to actually study and analyze data and think of possible consequences before jumping into action. Ideologues don't like to think.
 

chowderhead

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Dec 7, 1999
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Originally posted by: Zephyr106
Originally posted by: tallest1

Geez, if no one is going to fully answer the question, can someone of conservative leaning at least tell me if Powell is credible or not?



As a conservative, I can honestly tell you Powell has spent too many years at the State Department, poisoned by the unclean ideas of international cooperation and the religion of UN worshipment. Even in his days as a soldier he was known for not wanting to cowboy-it-up. Neoconservatives are the only Americans these days with the brains and the balls to successfully establish global US hegemony and dominion over lesser nations.



Zephyr

Democratic Imperialism. I am glad someone had the "balls" to say this. The people at PNAC (Perle, Wolfy) have written about this for years.
Ironic don't you think that your hero GWB is handing off to the UN this Iraq problem. Maybe just maybe, GWB has also been "poisoned" by these unclean ideas. :roll: