Who needs religious moderation?

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
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This article originally appeared in the January 2005 copy of Playboy. (Yes, I read the articles. Too. :))

I thought it offered a unique two-prong perspective on ONE: how reason not faith is the glue that holds our civilization together, and TWO: how religious moderates are downright dangerous in light of our current War on Terror. I found it interesting and thought it might provoke some discussion . . .

(BTW, I have no link, I just copied/pasted the article from another board...)

Religious Moderation is a Dangerous Thing
From the January 2005 Issue of Playboy
by: Sam Harris


According to Gallup, 35% of Americans believe the Bible is the literal and inerrant word of the Creator of the Universe. Another 48% believe it is the "inspired" word of the same-still inerrant, though some of it's passages must be interpreted symbolically. Only 17% doubt that a personal God has authored this text, or for that matter, has created the earth, with it's 250,000 species of beetles. If polls are to be trusted, nearly 230 million Americans believe a book that shows neither unity of style nor internal consistency was created by an omniscient deity.

Given this situation, we might wonder what it means to be a religious moderate in America today. Many of us claim to be religious moderates, or course. The problem, however, is that moderation in religion is completely without intellectual or theological support. It offers us no bulwark against the threat of religious extremism and religious violence.

Religious moderation springs from the fact that even the least educated person knows more about certain matters than anyone did 2000 years ago, and much of this knowledge is incompatible with scripture. Most of us, for example, no longer equate disease with demonic possession. About half of us find it impossible to take seriously the idea that the universe was created 6000 years ago. But such concessions to modernity haven't made faith compatible with reason. It's just that the utility of ignoring (or "reinterpreting") articles of faith is now overwhelming. Anyone who has flown to a distant city for heart bypass surgery must concede that we have learned a few things about physics, geography, engineering and medicine since the time of Moses.

The problem with religious moderation is that it doesn't permit anything critical to be said about religious literalism. By failing to live by the letter of the texts--while tolerating the irrationality of those who do--we betray faith and reason equally. We can't say fundamentalists are crazy, because they are merely practicing their freedom of belief. We can't even say they are mistaken in religious terms, because their knowledge of scripture is generally unrivaled. All we can say as religious moderates is that we don't like the personal and social costs imposed on us by a full embrace of scripture.

Religious moderates have merely capitulated to a variety of all too human interests that have nothing in principle to do with God. Religious moderation is the product of secular knowledge and scriptural ignorance. It has no credibility, in religious terms, to put it on a par with fundamentalism. Each text is perfect in all its parts. By this light, moderation appears to be nothing more than an unwillingness to submit to the law of God. Unless the core dogmas of faith (ie:, there is a God, and we know what He wants from us) are questioned, religious moderation won't lead us out of the wilderness.

Insofar as it represents an atteot to hold on to what is still serviceable in orthodox religion, such moderation closes the door to more sophisticated approaches to human happiness. Rather than bring the force of creativity and rationality to bear on the problems of ethics, social cohesion and spiritual experience, moderates ask that we relax our standards of adherence to ancient superstitions while we otherwise maintain a belief system passed down from men and women whose lives were ravaged by ignorance. Not even politics suffers from such anachronisms.

Moderates don't want to kill anyone in the name of God, of course. But they do want us to keep using the word God as though we knew what we were talking about. And they don't want anything critical to be said about people who believe in the God of their fathers, because tolerance, perhaps above all else, is sacred. To speak truthfully about the state of our world--to say, for instance, that the Bible and the Koran both contains reams of life-destroying gibberish--is antithetical to tolerance as moderates currently conceive it.

Religious moderates can't fathom that when jihadists claim to "love death more than the infidels love life." they are being scrupulously honest about their state of mind. Consequently, moderates imagine that factors other than religious faith lie at the root of Muslim violence. They are especially beguiled by the dangerous euphemism "war on terror." It is ironic that we rely on our own religious dogmatists--men such as Jerry Falwell and Billy Graham--to publicy appreciate the threat Islam poses to the world, while our newspapers testify daily to the fact that religious affiliation is the greatest predictor of terrorist behavior.

The next time you see a 70 year old woman from Norway struggle to take off her shoes at airport security, realize that in a world of limited resources their misallocation almost always comes at a price. The political correctness that is now the soul of religious moderation may get many of us killed.

There are still places in the world where people get put to death for imaginary crimes such as blasphemy and where a child's education consists solely of learning to recite from an ancient book of religious fiction. There are countries where women are denied almost every human liberty except the liberty to breed. And yet these same societies are acquiring arsenals of advanced weaponry. If we can't inspire the developing world, and the Muslim world in particular, to pursue ends compatible with a global civilization, a dark future awaits us all.

Nothing is more sacred than facts. Where we have reason, we don't need faith. Where we have no reason, we have lost both our connection to this world and to one another. People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our society, not in the halls of power. We should respect a person's desire for a better life in this world, not his certainty that one awaits him in the next.

But religious moderates imagine that the path to peace will be paved once we learn to respect the unjustified beliefs of others. This ideal of religious tolerance now drives us to the abyss. As every fundamentalist knows, the contest between our religions is zero-sum. Religious violence is still with us because our religions are intrinsically hostile to one another.

Where they appear otherwise, it is because secular interests have restrained the most lethal improprieties of faith. It is time that moderates recognize that reason, not faith, is the glue that holds our civilization together.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
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The inherent problem is that you (or the article, if you prefer) consider faith to be irreconcilable with reason. This is the fundamental problem with many at this time in our country. Of course, it's easier to lob stones at Christians than try to debate them, as is well demonstrated in this forum. Of course, debating them might demonstrate that not all Christians think alike and that some of them actually know what they're talking about, which would probably cause a few heads to pop. So, continue the anti-Christian crusade.
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
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I too like to form my political beliefs from the articles in Playboy... sure beats every other source out there :roll:
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
The inherent problem is that you (or the article, if you prefer) consider faith to be irreconcilable with reason. This is the fundamental problem with many at this time in our country. Of course, it's easier to lob stones at Christians than try to debate them, as is well demonstrated in this forum. Of course, debating them might demonstrate that not all Christians think alike and that some of them actually know what they're talking about, which would probably cause a few heads to pop. So, continue the anti-Christian crusade.
You seem a tad defensive about your faith. Remember Christians are the majority in this country, like Republicans, and neither of you are the "underdog" as you so often like to insinuate. Further, I do believe that faith and reason cannot simultaneously exist on certain topics. Despite this, the article addresses the fact that the moderately religious have reconciled their faith with secular knowledge. Perhaps you missed that part?
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: daniel1113
I too like to form my political beliefs from the articles in Playboy... sure beats every other source out there :roll:
I don't think the source really matters here, rather it's the ideas.
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
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Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: daniel1113
I too like to form my political beliefs from the articles in Playboy... sure beats every other source out there :roll:
I don't think the source really matters here, rather it's the ideas.

Right... how many times have you attacked someone for posting a Fox News article? Ideas my ass.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
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Originally posted by: daniel1113
Right... how many times have you attacked someone for posting a Fox News article? Ideas my ass.
I don't recall doing that, but since you're accusing me, go find some instances and report back. Okay?
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
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Originally posted by: DealMonkey
You seem a tad defensive about your faith. Remember Christians are the majority in this country, like Republicans, and neither of you are the "underdog" as you so often like to insinuate. Further, I do believe that faith and reason cannot simultaneously exist on certain topics. Despite this, the article addresses the fact that the moderately religious have reconciled their faith with secular knowledge. Perhaps you missed that part?
How was what I said defensive? It just points out one obvious flaw in the governing axiom that you posted before the article. Nor did I insinuate that Christians are a minority. Is there a difference between bigotry against the minority or bigotry against the majority? The OP insinuates that all Christians as a whole are living in a fantasy world devoid of all logic and/or reason. I don't think my eyes can roll any further into the back of my skull.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
You seem a tad defensive about your faith. Remember Christians are the majority in this country, like Republicans, and neither of you are the "underdog" as you so often like to insinuate. Further, I do believe that faith and reason cannot simultaneously exist on certain topics. Despite this, the article addresses the fact that the moderately religious have reconciled their faith with secular knowledge. Perhaps you missed that part?
How was what I said defensive? It just points out one obvious flaw in the governing axiom that you posted before the article. Nor did I insinuate that Christians are a minority. Is there a difference between bigotry against the minority or bigotry against the majority? The OP insinuates that all Christians as a whole are living in a fantasy world devoid of all logic and/or reason. I don't think my eyes can roll any further into the back of my skull.

I think you are viewing this discussion through your "poor persecuted Christian" lense. If you actually READ the article, you'll see that no one is saying Christians live in a fantasy world deviod of logic and reason (at least I didn't see that). What the article seems to be saying is that the problem with religious moderation is that it does not allow religious moderates to go against the religious fanatics (at least on religious lines). And the religious fanatics are the real concern.

Think about it. It's very clear that terrorists are, for the most part, religious fanatics. Their interpretation of their religion, twisted as it is, gives them the right and even obligation to do all sorts of bad things with a clear conscious. This is a big problem, more so than if they were in it for the profit or the power or something "earthly". You can work with almost anyone except a true religous fanatic.

And this isn't the first time, history has shown MANY times when religious fanatics engaged in truly horrible actions "supported" by their faith. Many times the fanatics have been Christians. Despite this clear and obvious history, NOBODY is talking about that element in terrorism, because it doesn't paint a very flattering picture of religion. We may be fighting the terrorists, but when it comes to explaining their behavior, we come up with lame lines like, "They hate our freedom".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-religion by any means. Religion has had a positive impact in a lot of areas. But there are also areas where it has caused a huge amount of damage, and still continues to do so. Why aren't we talking about that? And if we aren't, how are we going to fix it?
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
How was what I said defensive? It just points out one obvious flaw in the governing axiom that you posted before the article. Nor did I insinuate that Christians are a minority. Is there a difference between bigotry against the minority or bigotry against the majority? The OP insinuates that all Christians as a whole are living in a fantasy world devoid of all logic and/or reason. I don't think my eyes can roll any further into the back of my skull.
How were you defensive?!? Wow, let me see ...

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
So, continue the anti-Christian crusade.
Oh, that's right, that's where I spotted your defensiveness. I guess we can't discuss Christianity around here without being accused of being on a "crusade" against you. Whatever.
 

PatboyX

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2001
7,024
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
The inherent problem is that you (or the article, if you prefer) consider faith to be irreconcilable with reason. This is the fundamental problem with many at this time in our country. Of course, it's easier to lob stones at Christians than try to debate them, as is well demonstrated in this forum. Of course, debating them might demonstrate that not all Christians think alike and that some of them actually know what they're talking about, which would probably cause a few heads to pop. So, continue the anti-Christian crusade.

whoa there...a bit defensive, no?
i dont think the purpose of the article wasnt merely to attempt to persecute the majority, i think it was an attempt to suggest some ideas. personally, i dont agree with the article. (and i think its pretty poorly written)

and the article actually does address the idea that religion does exist with devoted and intelligent thought behind it. in fact, its brought up in the second paragraph.
i think you need to take a breather, then take another stab at the article.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
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Beyond that, the author correctly determines that the threat of religious extremism and religious violence has to be confronted aggressively and not tapdanced around by religious moderates who are afraid to be politically incorrect when dealing with extremists . . .