Who is the third greatest mass murderer of all time?

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AMDZen

Lifer
Apr 15, 2004
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I didn't say he was completely responsible, but he played a major role in the creation of the nazis and the final solution. I'm not simple... If anything I'm more complicated than most.

You've already proven you are by blaming Jesus for all the atrocities that Christians, Jews and whomever else committed in the last 2000 years. By that logic, he is also to blame for the Romans killing Christians at first, and later pagans and everyone else who wasn't Christian / Catholic some time later. All the Jew / Muslim wars, all wars.

You could basically tie all killing, war and murder to Jesus since his existence by your logic, Hitler himself was a Christian.

Complicated would be if you blamed the Romans who killed Jesus in the first place. ;)
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,021
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The question in the title is asking about mass murderers. Your first reply is:

I know, but as the thread continued people pointed out that Jesus' actions did not qualify him for the title of muderer. Which I agreed to:


Very true, :hmm: I shall have to think, perhaps not the greatest mass murderer, rather the person that caused the most death.
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,021
3
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You've already proven you are by blaming Jesus for all the atrocities that Christians, Jews and whomever else committed in the last 2000 years. By that logic, he is also to blame for the Romans killing Christians at first, and later pagans and everyone else who wasn't Christian / Catholic some time later. All the Jew / Muslim wars, all wars.

You could basically tie all killing, war and murder to Jesus since his existence by your logic, Hitler himself was a Christian.

Complicated would be if you blamed the Romans who killed Jesus in the first place. ;)

True.

Aside from that, I'm arguing that Jesus is the founder of the most prolific killing force in the history of man, if you want to argue that that is Islam or The Romans, feel free.
 

ussfletcher

Platinum Member
Apr 16, 2005
2,569
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The Catholic church almost wiped out humanity with the Crusades, which just so happened to be a leading contributor to the spread of the black plague.

But the real killer of man is greed.
 

AMDZen

Lifer
Apr 15, 2004
12,589
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True.

Aside from that, I'm arguing that Jesus is the founder of the most prolific killing force in the history of man, if you want to argue that that is Islam or The Romans, feel free.

But that doesn't make any sense. Modern day Christianity was birthed from Jesus' death, not his life. He never preached anything about killing.

So again, you would have to blame those that killed him. I understand that this is entirely too complicated for you, but I so love making you look foolish as its so easy to do.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
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oops saw it above!


But I'll explain any way, you need to learn History. Germany was responsible for Hitler, not the other way around. The culture around that time was what made the holocaust, not one man. The culture was blaming the Jews for everything, which was why Hitler came to power in the first place. Hitler rarely ordered his people to kill, he just gave them the choice and left all of the decisions to them.

The Germany - Hitler connection is not a one-way street in either direction. It is disingenuous to suggest that Hitler created himself or that Germany created Hitler.

I'm more than happy to get into a lengthy discussion about Hitler's rise to power, but I think that, for the start it is sufficient to say that the environment in Germany was ripe for a man like Hitler, not necessarily Hitler himself. His character and his charisma carried him far, but he was also extraordinarily fortunate in the early 1930s. To simplify matters into "Hitler didn't like the Jews and therefore became the leader of a nation that hated Jews" is an oversimplification.

Antisemitism in Germany was nothing new and Hitler knew how to play on those feelings when the time was right. If you read his campaign speeches, it is very interesting to see where he chose to emphasize the Jewish rhetoric and where he chose to tone it down.

That being said, the men who placed Hitler in power were not the same individuals that showed up to his rallies. They were aristocrats who were interested in finding someone who could be controlled once they were placed in power. They firmly believed that Hitler was a good choice because he was popular with the people and because they could keep him on a short leash. The backroom deal that put Hitler in the Chancellor's seat had nothing to do with his antisemitism.

As for the sentiment of the nation, you are certainly correct in saying that the betrayal myth was strong in the immediate aftermath of the war. The fact that Allied soldiers did not set foot on German soil perpetuated the idea that Ludendorf had thrown the entire nation under the bus and, while Jews certainly bore some of the blame, they weren't the sole focus of Germany's ire.

As for Hitler's direct contributions to the Holocaust, you are correct in saying that Hitler's approach was not "hands-on." The Wannssee Conference was planned, executed, and attended without his presence, but to say that he gave people the "choice" is misleading, bordering on factually incorrect.

Hitler surrounded himself with like-minded people and it was those people, inspired by Hitler's own words and actions, who presented and executed the Final Solution. Though the "decisions" were their own, these men constantly referenced Hitler's own words to justify their actions. Undoubtedly, many of these people were genuinely antisemitic, though some expressed antisemitism only to "fit in." To think, however, that these people would have furnished the Final Solution on their own, without Hitler, is silly. He brought them together, he put the tools of the Holocaust in front of them, and he created an environment in which something like the Holocaust could have happened. As the war waned his continued support of the Final Solution, at the expense of the war effort itself demonstrates how perverted and how fixated he was on solving the Jewish question.

The Third Reich is a fascinating subject, but trying to boil the relationship of Hitler and Germany or the relationship of Hitler to his officers and his army down to a simple three-sentence explanation is impossible.
 
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KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
30,031
45,261
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True.

Aside from that, I'm arguing that Jesus is the founder of the most prolific killing force in the history of man, if you want to argue that that is Islam or The Romans, feel free.

act_stupid-12025.jpg
 

AMDZen

Lifer
Apr 15, 2004
12,589
0
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True.

Aside from that, I'm arguing that Jesus is the founder of the most prolific killing force in the history of man, if you want to argue that that is Islam or The Romans, feel free.

So exactly who was responsible for all of the killing, murdering and death before Jesus Christ "invented" modern day religion.
 

Possessed Freak

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 1999
6,045
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Using neckbeard's line of reasoning... the #1 indirect mass murder is:

If you are atheist, Homo heidelbergensis or whatever is the direct predecessor to Homo sapiens...

If you are theist, God (or gods) as they created Man.

If you are agnostic, then God or gods may or may not have done it.
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
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True.

Aside from that, I'm arguing that Jesus is the founder of the most prolific killing force in the history of man, if you want to argue that that is Islam or The Romans, feel free.

But he isn't... you don't seem to get this really simple fact. Jesus didn't found ANY "killing force" at all. Everything you attribute to this "killing force" is not related to Jesus. This whole cause thing is really confusing for you, isn't it?
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,283
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Using neckbeard's line of reasoning... the #1 indirect mass murder is:

If you are atheist, Homo heidelbergensis or whatever is the direct predecessor to Homo sapiens...

If you are theist, God (or gods) as they created Man.

If you are agnostic, then God or gods may or may not have done it.

Already pointed that out. But he is dead set on Jesus being much worse.
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
35
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How many did Pol Pot get?

Or Mao? I think the estimates for "excess deaths" due to famine from the GLF are in the 10s of millions. Does that count?
 

Minjin

Platinum Member
Jan 18, 2003
2,208
1
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I was thinking of posting that but then death from disease isn't technically murder.
Are you saying that viruses aren't alive?

Jesus did not condone violence
Clearly you've never read the bible.

Antisemitism was pretty common throughout Europe for a long time. Industrialized mass murder was an innovation that was unique to the Nazis.
Hitler got most of his antisemitic ideas from Martin Luther, one of the few people he called out as his idols in Mein Kampf. In fact, the plan that he used to exterminate the Jews was taken straight from Martin Luther's writings.

And just for clarification sake since it is a common misconception, Hitler was not an atheist. He and a vast majority of all Nazis were devout Christians.
 

AMDZen

Lifer
Apr 15, 2004
12,589
0
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The Third Reich is a fascinating subject, but trying to boil the relationship of Hitler and Germany or the relationship of Hitler to his officers and his army down to a simple three-sentence explanation is impossible.

I mostly agree with everything you said, and feel the same way. Was just trying to point out that blaming one man was wrong.

In fact, nearly everything about the 3rd Reich applies to Stalin's regime as well. Or really any of the people pointed out in this thread. Just trying to point out that it wasn't just Hitler, or it wasn't just Stalin. Anymore than it was Jesus.

But thats all I was doing, Necktard is such a tard it blows my mind. I just have to feed the troll, its a bad habit I know.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
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It doesn't mean he didn't cause the deaths of more people than hitler. Indirectly or not. Religion has probably killed as more people than cancer, Christianity is just one of the biggest tumours.

Of those posted which killed for religion? Hitler certainly hated Jews so there's that. Stalin an Mao believed as you do an murdered people because of their religion. Tell me, how many were subjugated by British imperialism? You realize that Churchill pressed the US to overthrow the Iranian government via Operation Ajax to protect BP? Certainly religion has caused its share of problems but nationalistic pride and imperialism tops that. Look at the two world wars, India and a whole lot more and you'll find your own countries greed and lust for power hard to beat. Guess who started the concept of the White Mans Burden. Bet you know.
 

gimmewhitecastles

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2005
1,834
0
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Are you saying that viruses aren't alive?

The bubonic plague was actually a bacterial infection.

Regardless, the point i'm making is that in murder, there is an intent. Bacteria and viruses aren't sentient so it's not logical that they would have intent.
 

Minjin

Platinum Member
Jan 18, 2003
2,208
1
81
The bubonic plague was actually a bacterial infection.

Regardless, the point i'm making is that in murder, there is an intent. Bacteria and viruses aren't sentient so it's not logical that they would have intent.
Small pox and malaria are both viruses.

I'm really just highlighting the fact that even using the word "murderer" in a discussion like this is probably silly and leading. It leads to semantic arguments over direct and indirect actions and motives.

If we're talking about individuals with intent to kill that directly caused deaths, Moses might be pretty high up there (parting of the Red Sea and resulting deaths of the Egyptian army).
 

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
25
91
Potato Potato (Allah is the fictional one though, you can't have him)

Jesus is fictional too, why do you claim him?

The correct answer is Mao anyway.

As a country though, the US has exterminated about 100,000,000 natives.