Who is the third greatest mass murderer of all time?

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HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
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Your whole argument that Jesus Christ is responsible for more deaths than any other individual is absolutely wrong. If you say he is indirectly responsible, well, the first homosapians were indirectly responsible for ALL murder, as a result they would easily carry a higher count than Jesus ever could have (after all, all his deaths would go straight to them as well.)

On the other hand, if you say he is directly responsible, that is equally as wrong because he specifically taught non-violence.

Either way, what you said earlier is equally insane.

A valid point, Homo sapiens are indirectly responsibly for all death, as they spawned the species to a degree, that being said Jesus is more responsible than that, as he passed on teachings as well as genetics, without any thought for what his teachings could be interpreted as, also he created a following that ultimately became christianity, he created Christianity, and is there for responsible for it, in the same way that Davros created the Daleks and is responsible for them.
 

Jeeebus

Diamond Member
Aug 29, 2006
9,179
897
126
Has neckarb successfully reached his daily quota of 50 troll posts yet? It's somewhat fascinating that several of you will actually engage him in a discussion meant for no other purpose than to pad his post count.

And yes, I'm sure this post will just +1 him as well.
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
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You've misunderstood me. I have made two different arguments today.

The first: Jesus is responsible for the existence of Christianity. [As was hitlers dad responsible for hitlers existence]
The Second: People can be responsible for others actions through teaching or changing their though process.

See right there you point out how you were originally and still are completely wrong about placing blame on Jesus. Like has been stated several times, he taught non-violence. The people that committed violence in God's name weren't even Christians! Catholicism is a different religion based on different beliefs and traditions than Christianity. Might as well call Muslims Christian as well.
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,283
134
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You've misunderstood me. I have made two different arguments today.

The first: Jesus is responsible for the existence of Christianity. [As was hitlers dad responsible for hitlers existence]
The Second: People can be responsible for others actions through teaching or changing their though process.

I never claimed that Hitlers father raised hitler to be that way, you have extrapolated that from my second argument which had nothing to do with the first.

I am simply asserting that Jesus was responsible for creating Christianity.

The argument I made about raising someone to be a killer was simply to refute your point that no one is ever responsible for anyone else's actions.

Personally I believe that Hitler is responsible for his subordinates reactions, as I believe Jesus is responsible for his followers actions.

How is Jesus More responsible than the original homosapians? He created a religion of peace that was later (much later) polluted and changed into holy wars.

Had he never existed, the holy wars STILL would have happened.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
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a
You've misunderstood me. I have made two different arguments today.

The first: Jesus is responsible for the existence of Christianity. [As was hitlers dad responsible for hitlers existence]
The Second: People can be responsible for others actions through teaching or changing their though process.

I never claimed that Hitlers father raised hitler to be that way, you have extrapolated that from my second argument which had nothing to do with the first.

I am simply asserting that Jesus was responsible for creating Christianity.

The argument I made about raising someone to be a killer was simply to refute your point that no one is ever responsible for anyone else's actions.

Personally I believe that Hitler is responsible for his subordinates reactions, as I believe Jesus is responsible for his followers actions.


If you can't see the difference, then there is probably little point in anyone really discussing this any further with you.
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,021
3
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See right there you point out how you were originally and still are completely wrong about placing blame on Jesus. Like has been stated several times, he taught non-violence. The people that committed violence in God's name weren't even Christians! Catholicism is a different religion based on different beliefs and traditions than Christianity. Might as well call Muslims Christian as well.

I understand what you are saying but whatever he preached, when he claimed that he was God, and that his word held more value than others, he immediately segregated the community around him, pitting two sides against one an other, it's like putting two children in a room, having previously told one of them that no matter what the other one says you are right, then saying. Now don't fight, then leaving the room. What happens there is your fault.

How is Jesus More responsible than the original homosapians? He created a religion of peace that was later (much later) polluted and changed into holy wars.

Had he never existed, the holy wars STILL would have happened.

Well that is an interesting theory.

But aside from that, Jesus is more responsible because ascribed absolute moral authority to one people, his followers.

If you can't see the difference, then there is probably little point in anyone really discussing this any further with you.

I can see the difference, Hitler was more directly responsible for the actions of the Nazis, but both were responsible ultimately.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
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No mention of Cortez? The guy erradicated a city or two, and his work expedited the deaths of a lot of natives.

Probably not as big number-wise, but his civilization count isn't bad.
 

gimmewhitecastles

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2005
1,834
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Blaming Jesus for Christianity's atrocities is like blaming Karl Marx for the atrocities committed by Stalin's communist regime.
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,283
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No mention of Cortez? The guy erradicated a city or two, and his work expedited the deaths of a lot of natives.

Probably not as big number-wise, but his civilization count isn't bad.

I would agree. He completely wiped out a couple of civilizations and all the history associated with them. Maybe not the greatest mass murderer, but he caused more historical damage than most.

(though, we lost quite a bit due to the dark ages.)
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,021
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Blaming Jesus for Christianity's atrocities is like blaming Karl Marx for the atrocities committed by Stalin's communist regime.

:hmm: That is interesting, and I do love Marx... :hmm: I'm going to have to stick to my guns and say yep he is indirectly responsible.
 

AMDZen

Lifer
Apr 15, 2004
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Well you see I'd have to disagree with you there, when you instil a though process in someones mind, changing their very nature, you are responsible for what you create. While "orders" are to be undertaken, and so you can ultimately argue that the person who follows those orders is responsible, if you cause a change in a person that results in action you are indirectly responsible. For example if you are raised as a killer, with no ethics or morality innate, then the person that raised you is indirectly or directly some would argue responsible for those you kill.

You have no idea what you're talking about, which is like saying the sky is blue I realize.

But I'll explain any way, you need to learn History. Germany was responsible for Hitler, not the other way around. The culture around that time was what made the holocaust, not one man. The culture was blaming the Jews for everything, which was why Hitler came to power in the first place. Hitler rarely ordered his people to kill, he just gave them the choice and left all of the decisions to them.
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,021
3
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You have no idea what you're talking about, which is like saying the sky is blue I realize.

But I'll explain any way, you need to learn History. Germany was responsible for Hitler, not the other way around. The culture around that time was what made the holocaust, not one man. The culture was blaming the Jews for everything, which was why Hitler came to power in the first place. Hitler rarely ordered his people to kill, he just gave them the choice and left all of the decisions to them.

It's perfectly valid, however he is still responsible for the holocaust.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
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But I'll explain any way, you need to learn History. Germany was responsible for Hitler, not the other way around. The culture around that time was what made the holocaust, not one man. The culture was blaming the Jews for everything, which was why Hitler came to power in the first place. Hitler rarely ordered his people to kill, he just gave them the choice and left all of the decisions to them.

Antisemitism was pretty common throughout Europe for a long time. Industrialized mass murder was an innovation that was unique to the Nazis.
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
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The indirect line of blame is incredibly silly. With that logic you can blame George Washington for the War on Iraq and Cleopatra for unrest in Egypt and Ceaser for the Black Plague and a million other impossible connections. May as well blame some butterfly in South America for flapping its wings wrong and wrecking Japan.

We have no way of knowing if events like those happen because of a person or in spite of a person. Particularly when their only relation tends to be "A came before B".
 

AMDZen

Lifer
Apr 15, 2004
12,589
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Antisemitism was pretty common throughout Europe for a long time. Industrialized mass murder was an innovation that was unique to the Nazis.

The Nazi's fashioned themselves off individual choices, not the decision of their leader. Hitler just told them what needed to be done, not how to do it.

Which was why so many of the Jews lived, because for a while some of Hitler's lieutenants chose to keep them in those ghettos and not murder them all. Unfortunately for the Jews, they were in the minority.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
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I can see the difference, Hitler was more directly responsible for the actions of the Nazis, but both were responsible ultimately.

Even if I agreed with you, that Jesus is responsible for any murder carried out in the name of Christianity, which I don't, that would not make Jesus a murderer. Murder means that intent to kill was shown, this thread is about biggest mass murderers. Nothing you have said implicates Jesus Christ in murder or shows his name belongs in this thread.
 

AMDZen

Lifer
Apr 15, 2004
12,589
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It's perfectly valid, however he is still responsible for the holocaust.

Simple conclusion from a simple minded individual. Not that you're the only one, its much easier to place the blame on one individual then analyze the facts and discover the real truth.
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,021
3
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Even if I agreed with you, that Jesus is responsible for any murder carried out in the name of Christianity, which I don't, that would not make Jesus a murderer. Murder means that intent to kill was shown, this thread is about biggest mass murderers. Nothing you have said implicates Jesus Christ in murder or shows his name belongs in this thread.

Very true, which is a point I conceded at some point earlier in the thread. Everyone just kept asking me more questions after that point so... I kept answering.

Simple conclusion from a simple minded individual. Not that you're the only one, its much easier to place the blame on one individual then analyze the facts and discover the real truth.

I didn't say he was completely responsible, but he played a major role in the creation of the nazis and the final solution. I'm not simple... If anything I'm more complicated than most.