White people can't experience murder

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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mDMk1TI.jpg


Clearly satire regarding the canard regarding racism; a perspective that I'd like to hear other's thoughts on.

EDIT:


Orientation:
This reminds me of that time the Seattle public schools declared that only whites can be racist.
The argument that someone can't be racist against a white person is fairly common over in communist academia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Public_Schools#Controversy
http://epress.lib.uts.edu.au/journals/index.php/mcs/article/view/1075
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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mDMk1TI.jpg


Clearly satire regarding the canard regarding racism; a perspective that I'd like to hear other's thoughts on.

I can't say anything without a context. Who put this forward and for what reason? Was this in reply to something? Based on what I see it's nonsense. One can call a football a mop, but doing so isn't going to change the definition.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
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This reminds me of that time the Seattle public schools declared that only whites can be racist.

I didnt take that too seriously either, other than the fact some of the dumber kids might actually believe such nonsense.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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I can't say anything without a context. Who put this forward and for what reason? Was this in reply to something? Based on what I see it's nonsense. One can call a football a mop, but doing so isn't going to change the definition.

Orientation:
This reminds me of that time the Seattle public schools declared that only whites can be racist.
The argument that someone can't be racist against a white person is fairly common over in communist academia.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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You need to provide the source for this unless you wrote it yourself. Thanks.

I've a wikipedia to the Seattle case, a link to a journal-abstract that mentions this is a common perspective in the social-sciences, and I refer you to the TM/GZ thread for multiple instances of someone arguing that white people can't be the subject of racism because they are in power.

The image itself is satire of this perspective that I ran into on the internets; which I thought was both funny, and made good points about the natural lack of quality in these arguments. The image itself also suggests a few sociologists worth reading if one is so inclined as to get into the merits of the perspective.

I assumed others here would hold the perspective on racism that this satires, if only because I've seen such arguments made here before.

Please let me know if there's something I should do further to elevate the discourse.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
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Orientation:

The argument that someone can't be racist against a white person is fairly common over in communist academia.

I dont even mind much when they teach it at college. Kids that age can either think for themselves or they are already lost.

But they were teaching it to elementary children, who still have a chance to grow up intelligent and critical.
 
Oct 16, 1999
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This reminds me of that time the Seattle public schools declared that only whites can be racist.

Link to Seattle public schools declaring such a thing?

Racism = Prejudice + Power
Without passing any judgement on the validity of the measurement, that doesn't preclude blacks from being racist, even if you assign them a Power of zero.
 
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Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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Link to Seattle public schools declaring such a thing?


Without passing any judgement on the validity of the measurement, that doesn't preclude blacks from being racist, even if you assign them a Power of zero.

This was written by a rhetorician that doesn't know how adding works. Had a psychologist created the theory it would be racism = prejudice * disenfranchisement

Where a white can't disenfranchise himself.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
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Link to Seattle public schools declaring such a thing?


Without passing any judgement on the validity of the measurement, that doesn't preclude blacks from being racist, even if you assign them a Power of zero.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=23628
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=1874296

Links in each thread.
I also recall seeing it in the news but for some incredibly strange reason after just a month I was unable to find it on the internet.
 

spittledip

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2005
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I worked with a Black woman who expressed this same view- that only the race in power can be racist, so blacks cannot be racist against whites. Of course, to believe this you would have to change the definition of racism.
Dictionary definition of racism:
a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

Racism is belief oriented- a group or society is not needed to be racist, it only takes one individual to hold the belief. One individual can practice racism as an outflow of their beliefs. To practice racism on a societal level does necessitate one race holding power over another.

You can apply the same thing to murder. Really, this is an absurd article. What happens when one white person murders another one?

edit- just caught the part about it being satire... In that sense the article draws a pretty good analogy of the debate.
 
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Sheep221

Golden Member
Oct 28, 2012
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Simple things should be kept simple, murder is intentional taking someone's else life. Nothing else.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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Well, it's a bit odd to have something where we can't figure out the source. Seems to be one of those things that just gets passed around the Internet.

I am not sure what there is to discuss anyway, as I can't imagine anyone here actually agreeing with that.. :)
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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I worked with a Black woman who expressed this same view- that only the race in power can be racist, so blacks cannot be racist against whites. Of course, to believe this you would have to change the definition of racism.
Dictionary definition of racism:


Racism is belief oriented- a group or society is not needed to be racist, it only takes one individual to hold the belief. One individual can practice racism as an outflow of their beliefs. To practice racism on a societal level does necessitate one race holding power over another.

You can apply the same thing to murder. Really, this is an absurd article. What happens when one white person murders another one?

edit- just caught the part about it being satire... In that sense the article draws a pretty good analogy of the debate.
I thought so; anyone willing to defend the argument you too were subject too (and I've run into them here) is who i'm trying to draw into an discussion.

t'll then, here we are: All either agreeing or not catching the bit about it being a satirical take an a questionable perspective.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Seems to be that that kind of 'satire' is pretty much racist itself, right-wing propaganda that tries to imply that all racism is a 'joke' to be sarcastic about.

Couple points.

One is that any race can be racist. But it's a bit more complicated.

Two is that 'racism' is not a totally simple thing.

I'll try to list a few 'flavors' of these things.

One type of racism is just based on a sort of tribalism - 'hating those who are from other groups'. This seems to be to be more common in more segregated/isolated groups, but not always - it's just when 'preferring your own' has some poison of hate of others added in. Think for example of prisons which are hugely race segregated and if an inmate is friendly with another race he'll get violently attacked by his race. Extreme example, but an example.

Another type of racism is just where a group - possibly low in social status - likes a group lower than it. 'White trash' in the old South desperately wanted blacks to be lower.

This might be related to the 'untouchables' in India as well.

There's often also a convenience to this racism where the discriminated group does undesirable work for others.

Lincoln ran into this running for President, promising he was strongy opposed to any idea of 'social equality for the inferior black race'.

Then there's the broader type of racism - the type where England used to have terribly murderous colonization of people 'for their own good'. When Columbus landed in the Americas, he immediately planned how many troops would be needed to enslave all the natives and force them to mine gold for him, treating them so brutally something like all but 10,000 of a million were killed within 30 years. No doubt it's similar to Roman 'superiority' over the 'barbarians'.

Then there's the basic selfish type resenting poorer immigrants and foreigners. 'Screw them'. Classic example is 'no Irish are welcome' attitudes in the late 19th century.

And of course Mexican immigrants - especially poor illigal workers - today.

Sometimes racism is among closer divisions; there's a longtime hate between many Chinese and Japanese related to Japanese superioty attitudes and history of abuse/killing. Different flavor around Russia seem likely to fit this, perhaps Russians and Chechnyans.

It's not exactly racism but it's similar to other divides - Sunni/Shia at times, Catholic/Protestant have history, Yankee/Rebel around our civil war.

There are a lot of flavors and types and things causing and reinforcing it.

It seems to be it's a very small group that is more ignorant about racism, but this sort of 'satire' isn't making some valid point by highlighting them, but rather attacking the idea that there is racism, trying to imply that anyone who points out racism is just making it up.

One of the CPAC conferences was 'Are you tired of being told you're a racisn when you know you're not'.

As one commentator said, if you're getting told you're racist so often you want a conference like that, you might be racist.

But there's an agenda among some to attack and deny the issue of racism. People who want more for themselves, who want policies bad for others whether they're racist or just selfish, would like to minimize the 'inconvenient' issue of racism. A lot of that s nothing more than pandering to people to try to get votes, telling people who want to deny racism that they're right to not care about racism and think it's all a load of crap.

That was the Nixon and Reagan 'southern strategy' that worked well for them getting the White House - when blacks broke to Democrats after Democrats finally led the way to anti-racism laws, there were a lot of votes - especially in the South - ready to be collected by those who would 'take the side' of resentful whites, even if it was sort of hidden to not anger whites who supported the progress.

Another good example of the hate to claims of racism being itself a type of racism is Antony Scalia, recently claiming that voting rights protection was 'racial entitlement'.

That's just taking anger at 'those people' for wanting equal rights and turning it into an attack.

Racism rarely is honest enough to shot itself anymore like the KKK, and even they seem to mainly say they're not anti-black, just pro-separation, leave them alone.

It's usually wrapped in some clothing to dress it up, whether legal doctrine like Scalia is attempting or 'States' rights' or economic appeals or other disguises.

The OP's a little bit right in that there are a few who wrongly say 'you can't be racist against whites' - but plenty of racism still exists.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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It seems to be it's a very small group that is more ignorant about racism, but this sort of 'satire' isn't making some valid point by highlighting them, but rather attacking the idea that there is racism, trying to imply that anyone who points out racism is just making it up.
That an't how I read it. A clear read of the image says that what is being made up is NOT murder, but the distinction between murder and "killing, which is still bad but understandable given the circumstances".

ie

distinction between racism and "bias, which is still bad but understandable given the circumstances". Made by the academics sited.

It's usually wrapped in some clothing to dress it up, whether legal doctrine like Scalia is attempting or 'States' rights' or economic appeals or other disguises.
That's fair.

The OP's a little bit right in that there are a few who wrongly say 'you can't be racist against whites' - but plenty of racism still exists.
There's no solution to this problem until we stop creating a physical space for people to be 'other' in. The entitlement and drug-war manufactured culture of the inner city was created by racist laws, enacted by racist men, to perpetuate the other-ing of blacks.

Sometimes you have to look at the ideological superstructures that you-yourself support and ask "what are the material conditions this is a cause of".

In the case of government subsidized housing, drug laws, and the like: government funded self-genocide in the inner city is the outcome; And until the averages stop being skewed against blacks, the usefulness of skin color as a heuristic will continue to pervade society.

Craig234 Thank you for the level of discourse I was looking for.

I realize that when I call bullshit on my team it gives a little cover for the other team: But that's not going to keep me from calling bullshit. I don't believe that my "side" is so much better than the other that I can fail to be as honest and critical of my "side" as the other.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
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I'd rank this along with "I'm not racist I have a black friend". This has got to be an excuse by non-white people to dismiss their racism. Anyone can be racist.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Hi Dixy, let me clarify one thing.

I'm not suggesting whatsoever that you 'go light on your team'.

I'm not saying overlook the issue; I'm suggesting that I'm suspicious when a big deal is made of something like this, bigger than it actually is, that it's being hyped as a way to try to undermine the issue of racism. I don't think you are doing that, but I think some who will rush to jump on the bandwagon would have that agenda.

If I actually run into someone who makes those claims, I'd say the same thing I did, they're wrong; but if how many people do that is exaggerated, it tends to trivialize racism.

'Oh, they're a bunch of deluded whiners who think everything is racist'.

These are people whose politics spend all day on race issues just denying everything about racism, like it doesn't exist - with basically no appreciation of the actual issues.

It becomes a sort of automated response to every issue of racism, that they all have to be delusional and phony and part of some dishonest 'race agenda'.

That's why they'll make a big deal of someone saying 'blacks can't be racist' or some outrageous claim for 'reparations', because it helps them 'prove' all race issues are like that.