White collar workers turning to unions.

[Pulsar]

Unions staged a strike last week in Detroit at the fast food franchises. It seems they want $15 / hour or more for all positions.

This is a perfect example of unions run amuck. A unskilled job that can be filled by even the dumbest joe smoe is not necessarily one that should provide a living wage.

It's similar to the arguments about minimum wage. IF you raise the minimum raise, you see a corresponding raise in spending. Simple supply and demand, because you'll see a corresponding raise in prices too. Suddenly you're back where you started in terms of buying power but you've created inflation that lowers of value of everyone's money (especially pseudo-static savings accounts for things like retirement).

The case sited in the OP seams to be very similar. U.S. legal schools have been turning out lawyers at a rate far surprassing the need. That's been going on for some time. Again, this is a simple case of supply and demand. Management has realized that with a glut on the market, lawyers and all legal equivalents have become a commodity that can be made more efficient through price reductions.

In a situation where you went into a profession that was already grossly overstaffed, or simply are not a good enough lawyer to stand out from the crowd, it should come as no surprise that you aren't going to command good wages.

I approve of unions. I don't approve of unions trying to protect people who are mediocre or who have made poor decisions.

Mark my words - the health care industry is next. The nurses have already been slammed over the last 5-10 years, and doctors and the hospital administrators will be next. In 10-15 years, hospitals with marble entry ways, giant fountains, and expensive paintings on the walls as you walk in are going to be in for a world of hurt.

 

[Mixolydian]

Unions are still very much needed for blue-collar jobs. These are jobs that are physically demanding and can be dangerous. I will never understand the need for unions for white-collar jobs (like teachers). They don't have dangerous jobs.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Health care is already so screwed that new docs are getting out. "Cost containment" in government policies and consequently in private insurance are becoming more important than care. This nation had no idea how badly it's about to be screwed.

 

[Kneedragger]

What's all this talk about labor unions not being able layoff workers? I don't understand this misunderstanding I hear all the time. I have been in the electrician union for over ten years and people get laid off all the time. If you are lazy and suck you are the first to get laid off. They will probably get another job at the union hall but most likely they will get laid off again once their new employer figures the shit out..

 

[Pulsar]

What's all this talk about labor unions not being able layoff workers? I don't understand this misunderstanding I hear all the time. I have been in the electrician union for over ten years and people get laid off all the time. If you are lazy and suck you are the first to get laid off. They will probably get another job at the union hall but most likely they will get laid off again once their new employer figures the shit out..

Yes and no. Union halls are not so much the problem. As you said, ability begets jobs there. I think everybody agrees that's the way it should be.

Around here (big 3), you CANNOT be laid off if a younger member with less seniority has a job. They get laid off first, no matter the quality of your work or thiers. It's incredibly demoralizing, but will never change since the more senior members are also the leadship of the unions.

 

[Pulsar]

Health care is already so screwed that new docs are getting out. "Cost containment" in government policies and consequently in private insurance are becoming more important than care. This nation had no idea how badly it's about to be screwed.

Yet, other nations get away with better medical care for less cost. I think we need to delve a little deeper into the health field fiasco before we try to lay the blame at government and insurance companies' feet.

Indeed, I don't think the government or insurance companies pay for the decadent hospitals I've seen spring up around our area.

This should probably move to a different thread though, since we're moving away from the union discusion.

 

[Pulsar]

Unions are still very much needed for blue-collar jobs. These are jobs that are physically demanding and can be dangerous. I will never understand the need for unions for white-collar jobs (like teachers). They don't have dangerous jobs.

I don't see any connection between the physical danger of a job and the need for unions to prevent management abuse. Teachers or Secretaries can be just as badly abused. It's just not a good argument.

 

[Craig234]

What's all this talk about labor unions not being able layoff workers? I don't understand this misunderstanding I hear all the time. I have been in the electrician union for over ten years and people get laid off all the time. If you are lazy and suck you are the first to get laid off. They will probably get another job at the union hall but most likely they will get laid off again once their new employer figures the shit out..

Let me help with how propaganda is done.

Business interests want to pay workers less to get more for themselves.

Unions get in the way of that.

So campaigns are launched to turn public opinion against unions and they sometimes lie.

The end.

Edit: OK, not quite the end. Propaganda is generally based on a grain of truth, used to tell people lies they're inclined to believe already.

Unions aren't perfect, and some of their rules in some unions are easy to caricature and get people to dislike those things.

Stories like you tell that contradict the caricatures aren't in the interests of the propagandists, so you won't hear them.

Those sorts of rules have pros and cons; they help in ways, they can be somewhat 'corrupt', they can hurt 'efficiency'.

Unions can do bad things - but those who criticize them for those bad things often don't know or don't care about a lot of good things.

 

[Kneedragger]

Yes and no. Union halls are not so much the problem. As you said, ability begets jobs there. I think everybody agrees that's the way it should be.

Around here (big 3), you CANNOT be laid off if a younger member with less seniority has a job. They get laid off first, no matter the quality of your work or thiers. It's incredibly demoralizing, but will never change since the more senior members are also the leadship of the unions.

Are these construction jobs?

 

[Pulsar]

Are these construction jobs?

Unfortunately, no. Seniority rules over all in plant trades and assembly line workers and machinists. It's a different animal than the union houses altogether.

It stinks, but that's the way it is. As a supervisor, I have to deal with it on a regular basis.

[sarcasm intended for Craig234]

Unfortunately, that's the way the propaganda plays. The unions hold up the union houses as an example while trying to sweep all the bad practices they perpetuate under the carpet.

Unions like to pretend they're perfect, and never want to discuss the issues they create.

Unions can do good things. But people who like to point out those good things often don't know or don't care about the bad.
[/sarcasm intended for Craig234]

Craig, that type of post adds nothing to the discussion at all and you do it far far too often here in discussion club.

 

[ivwshane]

I personally can't stand unions because I feel they get inbetween the management/employee relationship but I feel that they are necessary.

In a perfect world we would have plenty of jobs and a qualified person for those jobs, however in this economy we have more people than jobs, this puts the power of the job market in the hands of businesses. Add to that an increase in worker productivity and an increase in automation and you end up with emoyers getting a really good return on their investment (which explains the record profits we are seeing in a slow economy) and you get employees with almost no power.

A worker population with no worker power is a recipe for disaster and a ticket to a downward spiral, economically speaking.

Unions help bring balance to the job market by forcing companies to compensate better, which is also better for the economy in the long run. Minimum wage laws also have a similar, albeit a smaller impact on the economy.

Basically balance needs to be restored and anything that will do that I am for.

 

[randomrogue]

Unions are necessary because we have no benefits as Americans. If you don't want pressure from Unions then enact some reforms:

1. Mandatory Sick pay and enough of it
2. Mandatory Vacation in line with the rest of the first world. Somewhere around 25 or more days
3. Mandatory Maternity leave. I'm not sure on the right number but somewhere in the many months range. Paternity leave is a bonus that some countries have
4. Mandatory unsafe or uncomfortable working hours bonus wages
5. Raise the minimum wage to livable wages

This race to the bottom needs to stop. We should not be competing with 3rd world countries. Let them build their cheap shit and lets make quality goods.

The problem we have in our culture is an attitude of "Well if they want more then they can do what I did." That's great coming out of the mouth of a CEO or upper management but it's stupid since not everyone is capable of that level of success. That doesn't mean they deserve to be paid a nickel with no benefits though.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yet, other nations get away with better medical care for less cost. I think we need to delve a little deeper into the health field fiasco before we try to lay the blame at government and insurance companies' feet.

Indeed, I don't think the government or insurance companies pay for the decadent hospitals I've seen spring up around our area.

This should probably move to a different thread though, since we're moving away from the union discusion.

The reasons for high costs is a separate issue. No one really wants to look at the that in detail meaning what's going on and what providers and patients need. they just want to implement rules which are harmful. We're facing staffing cuts in health care and at the same time have to spend more time complying with absurd rules and have less time to give care. If the system is ill then surgery with a mallet won't fix it. That's a main reason people will leave. It's starting now.

 

[Kneedragger]

Unfortunately, no. Seniority rules over all in plant trades and assembly line workers and machinists. It's a different animal than the union houses altogether.

It stinks, but that's the way it is. As a supervisor, I have to deal with it on a regular basis.

[sarcasm intended for Craig234]

Unfortunately, that's the way the propaganda plays. The unions hold up the union houses as an example while trying to sweep all the bad practices they perpetuate under the carpet.

Unions like to pretend they're perfect, and never want to discuss the issues they create.

Unions can do good things. But people who like to point out those good things often don't know or don't care about the bad.
[/sarcasm intended for Craig234]

Craig, that type of post adds nothing to the discussion at all and you do it far far too often here in discussion club.

I see now. So basically what I'm getting at is while people feel all unions are created equal they really aren't. These unions you speak of are way different than construction unions.

By no means are Unions perfect but nothing really is. If we were to depend on business with Unions out of the picture we would see a different situation...

 

[werepossum]

I interact with people in person. I can't even step out for lunch per regs. The problem is that the corporations would rather save $10 than make $50. Granted my company is rated on of the worst in the nation, but cutting minimum wage workers at the risk of safety is criminally stupid. At least a union could make a fuss because the state doesn't care either.

I've seen that in nursing as well. Some hospitals and nursing homes have cut RNs and LPNs to the point that the only people interacting with patients are untrained aids. If one's medication is being dispensed by those unable to interpret physical signs or words describing side effects, it can be deadly.

Some medication (such as my Synthroid) is now being dispensed by CVS in factory pre-packaged bottles, so the pharmacist never sees or touches it. I don't mind, but it does mean that the patient has to be vigilant in checking his or her medication before taking it.

 

[smackababy]

I've seen that in nursing as well. Some hospitals and nursing homes have cut RNs and LPNs to the point that the only people interacting with patients are untrained aids. If one's medication is being dispensed by those unable to interpret physical signs or words describing side effects, it can be deadly.

Some medication (such as my Synthroid) is now being dispensed by CVS in factory pre-packaged bottles, so the pharmacist never sees or touches it. I don't mind, but it does mean that the patient has to be vigilant in checking his or her medication before taking it.

That sounds an awful lot like advocating personal responsibility. That isn't the American way!

 

[Craig234]

That sounds an awful lot like advocating personal responsibility. That isn't the American way!

"Personal Responsibility" is one of those propaganda phrases, that has a legitimate basic meaning, but is abused to fit a very corrupt agenda.

The bad logic it uses would be like saying to people, you want a police force? Too bad, have some personal responsbility! (To which gun people say 'we've been saying that'!)

 

[chucky2]

This has been quietly going on for years, but it's tax work and they're not CPAs. Many large multinational CPA firms have outsourced the tax preparation work to India. In the US a CPA will review the tax return and sign it. i'm not sure how this system allows young college graduates in accounting to get experience.

Fern

Right. And what I'm saying is, through our (collective) greed, we've basically kick started China and India, two massive competitors, to compete with us. We're quite literally giving them funding to compete with us. We're trading yellow plastic buckets in Walmart now for your CPA job later.

Yeah, right now, they don't have the skill to compete with our service industry. Just give it 30 years. That's 30 years of them building up experience, know how, and skills, to then start churning out American/EU certd CPAs to now do the signoff. Best part is? Corp/Business, heck, even small businesses and individuals, will eat it up because now they don't even have to deal with the team in China/India. They simple deal with the Chinese/Indian CPA, who in turn deals with the team in China/India.

People laugh at me when I tell them this, and say completely dumbf*ck things like, That's what people said when Japan or Taiwan was making the market penetration, and look, they didn't take us over. To which my response is Hey dumb@ss, Japan and Taiwan don't have the population to compete with us, these two countries are each triple our size.

Laissez les bons temps rouler! We owe it to future F'd generations to live now on their behalf...

Chuck

 

[Pulsar]

"Personal Responsibility" is one of those propaganda phrases, that has a legitimate basic meaning, but is abused to fit a very corrupt agenda.

The bad logic it uses would be like saying to people, you want a police force? Too bad, have some personal responsbility! (To which gun people say 'we've been saying that'!)

What is this corrupt agenda, and who is repsonsible for it? Who has said that we should abolish the police force and used personal responsibility as a reason? Cite? Link? The statement doesn't even make sense. Perhaps it would help if we stayed on topic - unions. I don't think making vague and vacuous statements about other hot button topics helps to prove your point.

Why are you now attempting to connect Unions with a gun argument? That doesn't seem to be constructive at all.

I think it's clear that many people understand that Unions are still necessary and are a net positive, but that many have far overstepped their bounds and are contributing to poor workmanship and entitled employees. I'm still of the standpoint that right now, new Unions are being formed to protect wages that don't make sense in the marketplace.

I understand the point about not participating in a race to the bottom. Isolationism has never worked as a policy and high tariffs and protectionism has universally resulted in a stagnant economy. I don't see a way to protect our economy.

 

[BUTCH1]

Yeah, like unskilled laborers making $30 / hour and the company not being able to fire them for people WILLING to work the same unskilled position for cheaper.

Labor Unions had their place when the spread of information was a fraction of what it is today and technology did not allow us to expose bad working conditions in a manageable time frame. Today, they are irrelevant. If a company has deplorable conditions, you need but use the video camera in your pocket to record it and put it on Youtube. Email the link to several news sites and the appropriate authority.

The majority of unions make unreasonable demands that force companies to pay more than the market value for labor.

That may indeed happen sometimes, but when your on the flip side of the coin your perspective changes quite a bit. I was recently terminated from my job of 15yrs because I had an argument with a co-worker, of course there are no protections in an "at will" employment state so you have no means of arbitration, my employer knew someone else could fill my job cheaper and wanted an excuse to try and deny me unemployment benefits, since our Governor (Rick Scott) changed the unemployment rules from "gross misconduct" to "knowingly violating a company policy" only 15% of the unemployed in FL collect benefits, the lowest in the country. I was lucky in that my claim fell in the hands of an experienced adjudicator who saw an obvious attempt from a big corporation to "dump" older payroll in the street and granted me benefits, I collect the FL max@ $275/wk. Meanwhile the co-worker who started the argument after he got caught gold-bricking and tried to blame me, still has his job, if there were a union contract in place I would still have mine, I busted my ass for this co. and never called out sick, ect. I'm trying to find another job but it's difficult to overcome the stigma of "violating a company policy", any potential employer has dozens of other candidates to choose from that don't have that "baggage", even though I've never attacked, or threatened anyone and I have no criminal record it's a tough sell at best. I knew my employer's intentions last summer when during the slow season the three people that were there dating back to the '90's got called in for a "random" drug test the same day, we were told the a computer "randomly" picks out SSI#'s for tests, yet the chances of that happening were like lotto odds. One woman (who still works there AFAIK), gets "randomly" tested EVERY MONTH. She's in the $20/hr range with a bull's-eye on her back as big as Texas. So yea, unions can sometimes protect the lazy, unproductive worker that does deserve to get canned but the lack of one (in my case) gave my employer carte blanche to send me out the door, gotta say it's depressing to put all you've got into a job for a long time just to get the heave-ho at the first opportunity..

 

[Craig234]

Butch, thanks for that story, sorry to hear it though.

 

[BUTCH1]

Butch, thanks for that story, sorry to hear it though.

Well life ain't always fair, I was LUCKY to even get UI benefits, to make it as difficult as possible it can only be done online, some folks don't have access to a computer and have to go to a library. Then Rick Scott came up with a 3 phase "skills test" that you have to take to qualify, simple stuff really but I noticed the flash-based test didn't run properly, the multi-choice answers didn't line up correctly then the third phase refused to load at all, after 45 minutes and 30+ page reloads it finally did, clearly they are counting on people to just give up and go away. I mean I'm fairly computer-literate and I had these problems, imagine what a novice would do?, give up. A professor that got laid off made comments about how hard it is to use, that's how bad it is!, hopefully someone gives me a chance, at least the UI checks are keeping the bills paid and I only had to cash in 1/4 of my 401K $ to keep going. Sad in America when the big Co's can just hammer the small guy but that's the situation. I used to wonder why people would get so upset that they would go back to a former employer and start shooting things up, now I understand. No, I'm not that type do ever go that bonkers BUT...I understand..

 

[Craig234]

Just curious Butch - under Rick Scott - are your politics Democratic, Republican or other?

UI stuff seems like a nightmare, perhaps intentionally.

 

[BUTCH1]

Just curious Butch - under Rick Scott - are your politics Democratic, Republican or other?

UI stuff seems like a nightmare, perhaps intentionally.

Republican, yea, it's a nightmare, so much so that several law firms have prompted an investigation by the US dept. of labor. Another Republican proposed a bill that all unemployment recipients be required to PAY BACK benefits they received!. What!, that's why employers pay an unemployment tax so the system is funded. Rick Scott has re-branded it "Reemployment assistance" and vastly lowered the tax rate business's pay per employee into the system, creating a shortfall where the state has had to borrow close to 2 billion to keep it afloat, keep in mind the maximum amount is $275/wk which I get. most states it's much higher, I think only Alabama pays less.