Which one?: Integrated SATA or SATA controller card?

[computer]

Hi all, I'm about to get a Raptor HD but cannot determine which offers the best performance; integrated SATA RAID or an SATA controller card. Also, is the Silicon Image 3112A still the chipset to go with? Last I checked, it had better performance than the ICH5, HPT, and Promise SATA chipsets. Is this still the case, or is one of the others faster now?

Do you need special serial cables for SATA, or will your old serial cables work?

Do mobo's w/SATA come with the SATA cables & the power connector, or do you still have to get them separately (if your old serial cables won't work).

Has anyone seen the Raptor WITH the power connector adapter and with serial cables (if your old serial cables won't work).

Thanks.....

 

[Nebor]

Your old serial cables? If you already have serial cables, they aren't old... maybe you mean your old parallel cables... the flat, wide things? You'll need a sata cable...hopefully one comes w/ your HD....

Well, I don't know what board you're using.... but most 875i boards come w/ regular sata connectors, in addition to SATA RAID, as well as some support for PATA RAID and regular PATA connections.

 

[computer]

You know, SERIAL cables for the serial ports on a mobo. I have a bunch laying around that were for AT mobo's. They "look" the same, but I would guess they are probably not. ?

I don't have the SATA mobo yet, that's why I'm asking which is the best; integrated SATA or a separate controller card so I'll know whether to get a mobo that must have integrated SATA, or get a separate controller card.

Every time I've seen the Raptor, it's only been OEM....... no cables, no power adapter. So...that's why I'm asking if anyone has seen it with the SATA cable (again, if the old cables won't work) and with the power supply connector adapter.

 

[Nebor]

Good, you don't need the non-oem raptor, as it comes w/ a SATA card....

Ah... serial cables of old... it's funny, for a time, we though serial was the old stuff, hell, we have USB now... to hell with serial cables! And yet now serial is cutting edge... for our hard drives. Yeah, it's a different cable...and they are cheap. And if you get an Asus motherboard w/ onboard sata, they'll give you 2 cables with it.

 

[beatle]

USB is Universal Serial Bus.

You can use a regular molex power or a SATA power connector, but not both! Storagereview did a review on the Raptor both with integrated (SiI3112) and card (Promise) based SATA controllers. The Promise was usually on top, but the margin was less than 2% in all tests, save the ZD WinMark where the SiI controller blew the Promise away by as much as 35%! Personally I would go with a motherboard with integrated SATA.

I believe all retail raptors come with a SATA card and cable. OEM is just the drive.

 

[computer]

Ok, different cables...so we got that taken care of....and the mobo's seem to come with serial cables. Now if I can only find some comparisons of integrated SATA Vs. SATA card. With IDE drives, I've always gotten better benchmarks with a controller card (Promise ULTRA 100TX) compared to the integrated IDE ATA100 ports. This doesn't make any sense to me since the PCI bus is limited. ????????????????

I don't remember the website, but they reviewed some SATA chipsets and they said the 3112A was the only one that was TRUE SERIAL ATA, the others went through the parallel bus or something like that and had to deal with a bottleneck. That was a few months ago. Thanks for the reminder of that Storagereview link, I had that bookmarked and forgot about it. Yeah they are very close. I'm wondering if the closeness of the results puts the 3112A in favor since it did so much better with Legacy tests? Perhaps I should have said this is going on a desktop PC, no server apps...if that makes any difference in the best chipset. I fail to understand the comment at the end of that article about the WDxxxJB drives being BETTER than the Raptor, when the Raptor blows away the WD800JB in all tests! (I currently use a WD800JB). Someone is going to have to explain their comment to me! "For various reasons, enthusiasts view an increased spindle speed as the largest factor in single-user performance. The reality, however, is that desktop usage predominately consists of highly-localized patterns and is affected more by caching strategies than marginal mechanical improvements. Western Digital's JB series may very well continue to stand as the premiere choice for those seeking the ultimate in single-user speed.

Yeah, I'm aware of what OEM is, but I've never seen a RETAIL Raptor. There are none @pricewatch. Who sells them and what card do they come with?
Thanks.

 

[computer]

Beatle, if you can use a regular molex, then why are power supply adapter connectors being sold?

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: computer
Beatle, if you can use a regular molex, then why are power supply adapter connectors being sold?

The Raptor has both Molex and SATA power connectors. All other SATA drives use a SATA power connector.

 

[computer]

Ah. Thanks.

 

[computer]

Anyone?

 

[Hal900x]

Hi. To answer your question about SATA performance: Silicon Image 3112 is currently the fastest performing SATA controller. However, many SATA controller solutions incorporate a "bridge chip". All pci solutions use a SATA-PCI bridge. Large performance drop. Many integrated solutions (the ones based on existing mainboard designs) use a SATA-IDE bridge, also dropping performance big-time. There are a few boards designed from the ground up, such as the Gigabyte SINXP1394, which use the native SATA interface. Shop around for an integrated solution that does not need such a bridge, otherwise you will not be exceeding ATA100 speeds by much, if at all. Most of the folks doing benchmarks are comparing SATA-limited-by-PCI with SATA-limited-by-IDE. Apparently the pci bridge is a bit less limiting. Skip them both and "go native". I did and it was well worth it.

 

[BimmerGuy330]

Now THAT is one KILLER first post! Welcome to the boards, Hal900x, and thanks for responding with so much information!

 

[computer]

Thanks for the info. Do you mean 8INXP? I was going to go with that mobo (8INXP), but it's not DDR400 dual channel or 800mhz FSB.

NOW the question: which motherboards? Which P4 865/875 motherboards should one avoid that use the PCI bridge or SATA-IDE connection and which ones do not? This info of course is no where to be found at their sites, nor in any reviews. I've been hearing the SATA ICH5 is NOT the way to go, that the 3112A or Promise is faster. Then I saw a post I think on the mobo forum that the ICH5 does NOT use the PCI bridge, so that makes it desirable!!

Thanks "Hal".

 

[computer]

If this makes any difference I'm talking about SATA RAID.....I'm looking for a mobo that has SATA RAID, or can you get a mobo with a DIFFERENT SATA and SATA RAID chipset and is that the way to go?

This site is interesting, it compares the ICH5 to an SI (3112 I assume) but the 3112 is on an Athlon mobo!!!! So that's comparing apples to oranges! This thread says the ICH5 is better than the 3112!

I'm now wondering if a mobo like the 8INXP would be faster (with it's native SATA), but without 800mhz FSB, HT, or DDR400 dual; compared to an 865/875 mobo with a limited SATA chip, but with HT and 800mhz FSB???????????

This is so confusing I'm about ready to just say f*** it and put this whole thing off until SATA and 865/875 chipsets are obsolete. :| One site will praise the 3112A and says the ICH5 sucks. Then another site will say the exact opposite. Obviously the only way for ME to find out is to buy every single 865/875 mobo out there, and test them myself......which of course is not possible.

 

[Delweine]

 

[Delweine]

I am somewhat confused by some of your questions. First off, EVERY p-875 Mainboard I know of, with the exception of the asus p-875 board, all have the ICH5-R integrated as the native sata controller. You seem to be focusing on the
"onboard addon cards"..

I have2 WD Raptors raided 0 on the native ICH5R.. The benchmarks using Sandra showed 4.2 seek time, and a performance level that out performs all other raid 0 configurations, including all SCSI, with the exception of SCSI ultra 360

It is a fact, not my "opinion" that THE NATIVE SATA RAID 0 ICH5R is bother faster than any ADDON raid card, whether that is "onboard" or "PCI SLOT" <<<< SAME EXACT THING, BOTH USE THE PCI BUS.. I hope this ends the appeareant confusion over this issue


SOON WITH BIOS UPDATE 3500, We will be able to use both raid 0 and raid 1..Obviously not 0+1.

Basically, one drive config with one drive as the mirror, no performance gain.


The next generation of the ICH5 (I beleive it will be called ICH6R) will include 4 sata ports instead of 2, and 0+1 raid configuration..

I use The MSI NEO FISR P-875 I am happy with this board with the exception of one very annoying AND EXTREMELY DISHONEST Feature from MSI Called "MAT" >>> memory acceleration technology <<<LOLOLOLOL<< SCAM!!


Their so called "MAT" Technology, to date (bios 1.60) THE DRAM SETTINGS are locked basically. The bios will give you the option to change the dram settings, but these settings are locked into the MAT function, and at this time, there is no bios update that will allow us to disable the MAT function.. The "MAT" function is basically "scamology"

MSI have not created any "New technology" here. All this MAT "scamology" is preset ram configurations based on what MSI THINKS WILL BOOST THE DRAM PERFORMANCE, and they lock the end user out of setting our own ram timings although they FOOL PEOPLE WHO DO NOT BOTHER TO COMPLETLY BENCHMARK THE RAM, to think that we can set our own ram timings..

I have contacted MSI about this. If they do not come clean on this, I will be loking for others to consider a class action suit against them..

There is nothing more I hate than lying hardware companies that use deceptive and dishonest policies to sell products...

My recommendation at this time would be Gigabytes version fo the p=875 ... This is because they use the silicon image "onboard raid chip" and this one is the fastest "ONBOARD (ADDON) SATA CONTROLLER, with the most user freindly features. The one drawback of the Gigabyte board, heh, NO PLACE IN THE BIOS WHAT SO EVER to set dram timings<< a somewhat major blunder of their behalf..

The Asus version is nice, but a bit "gimmicky"

Abit<<HAHAH the industries far ans away leader in RMA "DEAD BOARDS" AND RMA "PLEASE TAKE THIS PIECE OF SHI** OFF OF MY HANDS!!

The Soyo board. the ultra dragon is the best built board, but the bios is horrible without a feature to reset your bios if we, the end user do something (like to agressive oc settings).. It can be reset, but you got to dig in your case and short the cmos jumper..

If Soyo offered the bios features of Asus, it would ve far and away the best 875 board.

The other companies? I have not tested the other boards, I do not know..

Unfortunately, alot of the reviews we read on some of the tech sites, are reviews that have been "bought off" so DO NOT BELEIVE A GOOD DEAL OF THE "FINAL RESULTS" If at all possible TEST THEM YOURSELF!!

Half the "so called techs" out there are morons, plain and simple.. I am amazed">>> " build

a box" and now one becomes an "expert tech" hahah nonsense!!

I hope I have helped you out bro in your decision to find the best possible p-875 board for you.. I cannot recommend the MSI board.. Yes I got it to run very stable, but my ram will not run at spec for the reason I mention. And MSI needs to be taught a lesson not to flat out lie and deceive people.. I call them like they are, and MSI had better fix this and come clean, or they will face a class action suit. I have done it before with Abit, and I will do this again If I have to.. It sickens me that a company adds an annoying "new feature" and calls it "technology" when in fact it is absolutely nothing of the kind..

Anandtech, GET ON MSI ABOUT THIS!! SHOW YOU ARE NOT "BOUGHT OFF EITHER" LIKE NEARLY EVERY OTHER TECH SITE!! Look and see who "sponsors the sites" you see for example an MSI link(s) on a tech site and SUPRISE, THEY PICK THE MSI BOARD! WOW YOU WOULD HAVE "THUNK IT"!!!

Final opinion, at this time I recommend Gigabyte's 875 board for 3 reasons..(MSI fixes and comes clean, then i recommend them both)

1. Excellent Tech support. 2. Silicon image "ONBOARD SATA RAID" can run 4 ide devices and 2 sata devices, giving one a total of 6 drives.. (Silicon's raid version I do beleive supports ATAPI devices as High Point's card does as well Promise does not) 3. The board has 2 BIOS CHIPS..(main and backup) I find this a nice safety feature. I have "melted a bios or 2 in my day, but they all were Abit boards..<<ANOTHER REAL SHOCKER!! I helped pad their industry leading RMA.!!

PEACE


:|

 

[Delweine]

One more thing bro. You say some sites praise the "onboard sata" over the native ICH5R right? The sites that say any onboard chip or addon sata is faster than the native ICH5R do not know the difference between an ass aand an elbow!!

The ICH5R runs at 100 mhz. all PCI BUS at this time run at 33 mhz.. The ICH5R does not tax the local PCI bus BECAUSE IT DOES NOT USE IT!!!

Whereas onboard sound, onboard lan (exception Intel's gigabit card does not use The PCI bus) ADDON CARDS ALL TAX THE PCI BUS RUNNING AT 33 MHZ.. Tne] when you got 2 busmastering cards with bios, say like the onboard raid with an addon pci promise controller card, err GOOD LUCK BOOTING UP!!

Having said the above, you tell me which of the sites you have gone to are right, and which of them have "MORONIC RETARDS ON CRACK" working for them.

It is not really even close. IU do not give 2 hoots what "THE MORONS" say.. Most of them aren't techs. and any moron can grab an A+ CERT

(WOW MAMA, LOOK I CAN PUT A CARD IN A SLOT AND PUSH A POWER BUTTON, I AM A GREAT TECH!!<<<MORON!! Peace

 

[Delweine]

As well you mention this;


"I'm now wondering if a mobo like the 8INXP would be faster (with it's native SATA), but without 800mhz FSB, HT, or DDR400 dual; compared to an 865/875 mobo with a limited SATA chip, but with HT and 800mhz FSB???????????"

heh? Now you got me confused and I have been a tech for years!!

Your basis is a bit off bro. First off, THERE IS NO BOARD WITH A CHIPSETS OTHER THAN 865/875 without ht, 800 fsb and dual ddr ram, NOTHING EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE! You are taling about the E7205 chipset on the 8INXP.. This chipset from Intel was basically a "test chipset" You ask if the native SATA would be faster on that board and the answer is a resounding NO WAY IN HELL!!

I list my e-mail here in my info. E-mail me with your specific questions and I will try my best to answer them. I can see you are a bit confused here.

DO NOT FEEL BAD THATS EXACTLY WHAT INTEL AND SOME MAIN BOARDS CO'S DO NOT MIND YOU BEING THAT WAY!!

Your asking "Hypothetical questions" that will just serve to confuse you even more..

You want top sata performance? hands down the ICH5R when 0 raiding (stripe) like what I have, 2 wd raptors, delivers incredible throughput that beats most scsi 0 raid configs art a fraction of the price of scsi..

The only advantage of scsi is primarily redundancy and disk multi tasking..

Let me ask you, are you going to be using a computer to do constant video editing on the pro level and/or serious cad/cam Biz applications 24/7?

SCSI is built to be powered on 24/7 running multiple applications and being constantly accessed accross Lans and Wans by a bevy of network users all at once (well you know what I mean) and you know darn well, YOU PAY FOR THAT BUCKS BRO!!

SCSI is a complete waste of money for the desktop user, even the most demanding desktop users.

I do not "know everything" I am always learning, but again as I say in the other posts, most of these so called "tech sites" have allot of morons testing there and/or are seriously "influenced" when the companies they test out offer to sponsor their sites, etc.. basically "bought off"

Frankly, I am a bit concerned about the computer techs these days.. I usally end up fixing computers that these guys completly hose up.

Peace

 

[dmw16]

intergrated is better if it connects directly to the south bridge. So if you get a chip with native SATA such as the Canterwood. If you use an expansion card you are theoretically limited by the PCI bus (133mb/s) where SATA is theoretically capable of 150mb/s.
-doug

 

[FullRoast]

 

[FullRoast]

There is a review here that compares RAID0 on an Abit IC7-G for both the ICH5R and the onboard Silicon Image controller. (The link jumps into the middle of the review, where the SATA data is).

The add-in (or on the motherboard) PCI controllers aren't bad, but can be bottlenecked by the PCI bus if you have lots of additional traffic on the bus. The ICH5R controller has an additional for the drives and is not impacted by PCI bus traffic.

 

[Delweine]

Asus just recently came out with an improvement on their p4c800 deluxe.. the new board has the same exact name but with an "E" designated on the end.. The new improvements make The Asus board. my clear recommendation for the best p-875 mainboard..

The new features are

Intel's gigabit lan over the 3 com.. Intel's is integrated onboard AND OFF THE PCI BUS!!
ICH5R... Asus before did not opt for the ICH5R. Instead they wenmt with the ICH5

These 2 factors make the Asus board my choice clearly in their favor.. I see only 1 somewhat of a drawback,, No northbridge FAN.. Thgis chipset can get very hot. without a NB fan, it is possible stability issues might arise. I will mount my own fan on the NB (Yes I ordered it and will sell my MSI NEO FISR as OEM.. anyone want it? It is 2 weeks old?)

So the order of best boards in my testing and opinion is

1. Asus p4c800-E <considerably superior to the others. the best advantage is a bios of "forever fun" haha tons of options to tweak around.
2. Gigabytes... heh I forget the model, GP-ENXP or something. They only have 3 p-875 boards amd one is overkill with integrated scsi onboard.

3. Soyo dragon ultra 2
4. MSI NEO FISR P-875

 

[computer]

Thanks for the info. Yeah from reading lately I gathered the ICH5R is going to be faster than the 3112 or Promise SATA ports.

What I meant by this: I'm now wondering if a mobo like the 8INXP would be faster (with it's native SATA), but without 800mhz FSB, HT, or DDR400 dual; compared to an 865/875 mobo with a limited SATA chip, but with HT and 800mhz FSB??????????? .......is that the 8INXP does NOT support HT, or 800mhz bus CPU's, or DDR400, yet it DOES have great SATA...or so I thought at the time I wrote that. I've found out a lot more since then; esp. about the ICH5R. It's still rated the top mobo though here so it must be pretty good. However the site refuses to review the TOP 865/875 mobo's for some reason.

I'm now leaning towards the Abit IS7-G or 865PE Neo2 FISR2, or the Gig 8KNXP if I want to dish out $212.