which lasts longer? digital video or analog video?

[johnsquare]

Many conservations nist argue that video tapes recorded on films would last much much longer than DVD discs or CDROMs... is it true? Since the advent of super cheap recordable CDRWs... i think the people were misled into thinking digital storage is temporary...

 

[TuxDave]

Depends on what you mean 'last longer' because you need to determine the threshold at which it's no longer the same. You can get some really old tapes that are fuzzy but hey, you can sorta see what's going on.

 

[mrscintilla]

I watched some porn cdrom I bought 6 years ago. still going on..... long enough for you?

 

[Matthias99]

Digital, by a long, LONG margin.

Individual media (like a CD-ROM) might degrade over time (thus eventually rendering the information stored on them unusable), but you can make perfect copies of it onto fresh media long before that happens. Analog media *also* degrade, but every time you copy it you lose information. And, generally, analog tapes degrade faster than modern optical media. They also always suffer degradation when played (tapes get stretched out, and get wear from the read heads), which optical media don't.

 

[Googer]

Data loss is not as deteramental to Analogue as it is to Digital. Analouge has better Color but Digital has better resolution and Definition. It all Depends on the Storage medium.

Digital 8mm, Analogue 8mm or VHS:
Tape will last about the same no matter what kind of information is stored on it (analogue or digital), however I suspect that with Analogue (tape) you will have some (it will fade but not disappear) Picture vs Digital stored on tape will have sufferd from Bit ROT and the player will have troubles decoding the data since some bits (0's or 1's) will have disapeared. Analogue will show a bit of fuzz in the same case but will still be playable. The same 8mm Tape is used for both Analogue and Digital, the only diferance is the recording method.

CD/DVD Optical Storage
If your storage medium is a commercial pressed DVD or CD, then analogue is not an option here and you are using a digital format. Expect 30+ years for Commercialy Pressed Optical and 10 years or Less for self burned DVD/CD. Tomshardware did a test and found some 6 year old CD-R's to have some data loss.

Other Digital Storage Options
If you are saving on your hard drive or flash based memory, You can expect for it to last a long time if it were put away and never(rarely) used. I reciently pulled a hard drive that had not been used since 1985 (86?) or so and found the data on it to still be mostly intact. and useable.

I have reciently watched some old VHS Tapes (ET and Who Framed Rodger Rabbi). They worked Quiet well and had very little degradation.
None the less they were starting to fade. My advise make backups and use both Analogue and Digital (on differant mediums if possible) to save those Important videos. A single Missing Bit will cause hickup's for a digital player but analogue (vhs) will keep flowing smoothly.

With Digital TV Broadcasts on the Horizon for us all, Just remember when you get poor reception (signal loss) with digtal you either get a picture or no picture at all. With ye olde fashiond analogue if you have signal you get some picture but it is sligtly faded or static-ey. We are all familier that.

If I forgot storage types or made an error let me know. Thanks.

 

[0roo0roo]

i remember reading that one should atleast rewind/fastforward a tape everyonce in a while to make sure it doesn't stick

 

[Matthias99]

A single Missing Bit will cause hickup's (sic) for a digital player but analogue(sic, or you're british) (vhs) will keep flowing smoothly.

Actually, both CDs and DVDs include *quite* a bit of error correction in their data formats, and you could always include more, and/or make multiple copies of the data. You can lose something like one out of every ten or twelve bits on a CD and still have it work fine (as long as the errors aren't clumped together too tightly). Plus, with media files (audio/video), losing a few bits will cause a hiccup -- but it's not like analog formats are immune to this sort of thing, either. Worst case for an isolated digital error would be losing a few seconds of audio or video (if you happened to lose a keyframe in a format like MPEG2).

If you're expecting the media to take lots of errors all over the place, analog is more resilient, because it will "bend, but not break" (so to speak). A VHS cassette with severe degradation will be fuzzy and look (and possibly sound) like crap -- but it will work. A DVD with scratches all over it may be damaged enough that you can't really watch it, because it will constantly skip or freeze up. However, it's much easier to not scratch up a DVD than it is to keep a VHS cassette from gradually wearing down. Furthermore, if a piece of digital media gets damaged, you can make a perfect copy of all the data that survived unscathed. You can't copy an analog media format without losing quality.

 

[Googer]

SIC, what is that?

You are right 100% but don't forget that Commercial Discs' are a bit differant and have a much longer shelf life. I have a few cds' that had been in their cases since 1991 and still worked when I played them back a few months ago. A few of them are 14-15 years old with no scratches on them (i take good care of my stuff) They are the same as the day they were purchased. After time Homemade optical discs' will chemically become altered and unreadable after 6-10 years; then your data is 100% gone.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Googer
SIC, what is that?

From www.dictionary.com:

sic1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sk)
adv.

Thus; so. Used to indicate that a quoted passage, especially one containing an error or unconventional spelling, has been retained in its original form or written intentionally.

[Latin sc. See so- in Indo-European Roots.]

I was subtly pointing out that you had misspelled both 'hiccup' and 'analog'.

You are right 100% but don't forget that Commercial Discs' are a bit differant and have a much longer shelf life. I have a few cds' that had been in their cases since 1991 and still worked when I played them back a few months ago. A few of them are 14-15 years old with no scratches on them (i take good care of my stuff) They are the same as the day they were purchased. After time Homemade optical discs' will chemically become altered and unreadable after 6-10 years; then your data is 100% gone.

This really depends on the media. Some brands claim to be good much longer than 6-10 years. But, yes, if you are archiving stuff onto CD-ROM or DVD-ROM, I would have to currently recommend copying it onto fresh media every five years or so (this also avoids compatibility problems down the line, and will usually let you condense onto fewer media, for example going from CD->DVD, or DVD->Blue-laser DVD in a few years). Digital magnetic tape and MO disks are better in this regard (and tape is cheaper).

 

[Googer]

Thanks for the definition and the word of the day.

I am a bit weary of most Magnetic based media, however Hard Drives and MO's have proven to be fairly reliable.

 

[blahblah99]

Originally posted by: Googer
Data loss is not as deteramental to Analogue as it is to Digital. Analouge has better Color but Digital has better resolution and Definition. It all Depends on the Storage medium.

Digital 8mm, Analogue 8mm or VHS:
Tape will last about the same no matter what kind of information is stored on it (analogue or digital), however I suspect that with Analogue (tape) you will have some (it will fade but not disappear) Picture vs Digital stored on tape will have sufferd from Bit ROT and the player will have troubles decoding the data since some bits (0's or 1's) will have disapeared. Analogue will show a bit of fuzz in the same case but will still be playable. The same 8mm Tape is used for both Analogue and Digital, the only diferance is the recording method.

CD/DVD Optical Storage
If your storage medium is a commercial pressed DVD or CD, then analogue is not an option here and you are using a digital format. Expect 30+ years for Commercialy Pressed Optical and 10 years or Less for self burned DVD/CD. Tomshardware did a test and found some 6 year old CD-R's to have some data loss.

Other Digital Storage Options
If you are saving on your hard drive or flash based memory, You can expect for it to last a long time if it were put away and never(rarely) used. I reciently pulled a hard drive that had not been used since 1985 (86?) or so and found the data on it to still be mostly intact. and useable.

I have reciently watched some old VHS Tapes (ET and Who Framed Rodger Rabbi). They worked Quiet well and had very little degradation.
None the less they were starting to fade. My advise make backups and use both Analogue and Digital (on differant mediums if possible) to save those Important videos. A single Missing Bit will cause hickup's for a digital player but analogue (vhs) will keep flowing smoothly.

With Digital TV Broadcasts on the Horizon for us all, Just remember when you get poor reception (signal loss) with digtal you either get a picture or no picture at all. With ye olde fashiond analogue if you have signal you get some picture but it is sligtly faded or static-ey. We are all familier that.

If I forgot storage types or made an error let me know. Thanks.

How'd you get to that conclusion? If you're talking about quantization errors, then that problem is non-existant nowadays with higher resolution ADCs. This is particularly true in audio, I'm not sure about video although I suspect it's at the same level. Once an analog signal is digitized through an ADC, it's immune to noise unless it is great enough to cause the bit to change.

Your eye acts as a filter, so at some point in technology, going through a digital system and back to analog won't have a visual effect on the content if the ADCs and DACs are of high quality.

Anyway, if you're talking about the actual digital or analog content, then digital will last forever, if the media that it is stored on won't degrade like with CDRs.

 

[Googer]

I was not refering to the recording process at all, so ADC is out of the question. What i am refering to is future playback and BIT ROT (the loss of data over an extended period of time or shelf life). Take out some old floppies (at least a year or two old) and maybe 1 out of 10 or greater in my luck will be corrupt and unreadable by 99% of the floppy drives out there. When it comes to digital video, BIT ROT is a lot like Russian Roulete; Some Times it Kills, some times it injures, and other times it does nothing at all.

Its a differant case when dealing with DATA:
BIT ROT is a much more serious matter than it comes to data, your whole file can be exactly as it was saved many years ago except for that one tiny single binanry zero or one that decided to go AWOL. That one missing soldier (BIT) can cause his whole platoon a fatal disaster.

Anyway, if you're talking about the actual digital or analog content, then digital will last forever, if the media that it is stored on won't degrade like with CDRs.

The same could be said about analogue if we can find some other means of storage besides Magnetic Tape, Wax, or Vinyl then analogue could last an eternaty.

As i speak right now and to my knowledge the only digital storage medium that could last for the next millenium, would be to carve binaray bar code into granite and read it back using lasers or optical scanners. CD-r and DVD-? will loose information in 10-20 years from now and be
useless even if no one opens or uses them in that time. Self Recorded optical media works when a laser changes the chemical composistion of the disc, and over time those chemicals can change.

What I think our friend here is looking for is not the technology that records his video, but the technology that stores his video.

 

[Googer]

Did I mis-understand your question, were you asking how digital could have better colour?

 

[V00D00]

Originally posted by: Googer
means of storage besides Magnetic Tape, Wax, or Vinyl then analogue could last an eternaty.

As i speak right now and to my knowledge the only digital storage medium that could last for the next millenium, would be to carve binaray bar code into granite and read it back using lasers or optical scanners. CD-r and DVD-? will loose information in 10-20 years from now and be
useless even if no one opens or uses them in that time. Self Recorded optical media works when a laser changes the chemical composistion of the disc, and over time those chemicals can change.

What I think our friend here is looking for is not the technology that records his video, but the technology that stores his video.

There are standards set for if media can be labeled "archival" or not. There aren't these standards set for DVD and CD media, but it is coming. Good media has a shelf life of about 100 years. If it is stored in a stable climate with no sunlight, it could probably las many hundreds of years. The data will not wear away unless it's provoked. It takes a high intensity laser to burn the media, just sitting there isn't going to change it.

DVD movies you buy in the store are actually pressed from glass masters, so they could easily last thousands of years if stored somewhere air tight.

I remember reading about a bunch of audio cds that were damaged when some people took the disks into the jungle, but it was from some bacteria that was eating its way through the two plastic sandwiches.

Analog media will not last nearly as long as digital media, wich can potentially last forever.

 

[Googer]

Analog media will not last nearly as long as digital media, wich can potentially last forever.

It all depends on material the media is made of. Both signal types has the potential for indefinate archiviabitily, but current magnetic analogue storage technology is very limited. During the 1940's there was an early tecnology to store analogue video on Vinyl records, It did work well and was very archiveable with a near indefinte shelf life. But the reason it did not suceed is that it took an entire room full of records (vinyl Lp) to store just an hours worth of video. So it flopped for that reason. If we can come up with similar tech for analogue storage other than a magnetic type, analogue could last foreaver.

If someone knows about this let me know. I belive it was in the hundreds the number of Vinyl Discs were needed for 60 min worth of pictures. And they had to be changed very frequently.

DVD movies you buy in the store are actually pressed from glass masters, so they could easily last thousands of years if stored somewhere air tight.

C'mon real world please. No one stores any thng in air tight containers.

Like Stephen Manes said in a PC World article some time in the last year. (i will find the article and post it later) Do we really know if our kids and grand kids will still be able to read or use this stuff in 30, 60, 100 years. Yes the media may survive, but with no means to decode it, the video will become useless. The great thing about the old fashioned film technology, is that in 100 years our great grand kids will not need special machines, decoders, or equptment to look at somthing like a hard bound and pressed book or photograph of you and their parents sitting on your lap wearing tickle me elmo oshkosh b gosh.

 

[Googer]

I find Stephen Manes to be a refreshing breath of digital air and reality.

Article taken from PC World website.
http://www.pcworld.com/howto/a...le/0,aid,115071,00.asp


It's a display with resolution higher than any screen you can buy. It's memory that lasts at least as long as any disk, using a universal format that's been proven for thousands of years. Despite computerists' best attempts to kill it with concepts like "the paperless office," paper lives.

At the annual Demo conference recently, several luncheon tablemates and I grappled with a topic that sounds simpler at first blush than it actually is: How do you store your precious digital photos? A CD-R or a DVD may last 100 years, although we don't really know for sure. But how will your grandchildren read that disc or know what's on it?


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Consider a product that I was using as recently as ten years ago: the 5.25-inch floppy disk. I've got lots of files of at least some value on old-style floppies, but the only drive I own that will read them is in an ancient, closeted machine that may not even boot. If you organize your pictures with a product like Adobe Photoshop Album or Apple's IPhoto, will compatible software exist twenty years hence? Fifty years down the road, who's to say whether your heirs will be able to find a drive that reads your CD-Rs and software that understands their file formats?

Even in the digital world, good old analog paper gets around all that. Print out a photo or document, and, short of flame or water, it's likely to be around for a long time. And as anybody who's flipped through photo albums can attest, a photo is essentially self-documenting. Even if you have no idea what a picture is about or when it was taken, and even if it's faded, you have an inkling of what it represents. That's something a cryptic file name on a CD can't tell you.

At a break later in the day, I noticed another Demo attendee pulling out her PDA--a paper datebook. This savvy professional had been a Palm fashion victim before she chucked her handheld for paper's directness. Ending her slavery to the time-wasting synchronization process, the slow-moving data entry of character recognition, and the tyranny of battery monitoring greatly outweighed the slim downside that she might lose the datebook. Old, reliable, low-tech paper beat high-tech electronics yet again.

I've personally returned to paper for things like receipts from Web purchases. Once upon a time I saved them as files, but overly clever sites kept conspiring with an overly stupid browser to save the pages incorrectly. And even when the file was okay, it wasn't always on the machine I happened to have with me so that it could serve as proof in case of a snafu at a rental car lot or hotel. My love affair with paper was consummated when Alaska Airlines began letting me print out my boarding pass at home--which enabled me to bypass check-in.

Not convinced? If you're reading this in the print version of PC World, glance at its Web-based equivalent to see how much richness, legibility, and convenience get lost. The onscreen world is something, but not everything. Viva paper!
Contributing Editor Stephen Manes has been writing about technology for two decades.

http://www.pcworld.com/howto/a...le/0,aid,115071,00.asp

I am already exprienceing some of these problems with older software and software formats. It may only get worse. Keep analogue around. It requires almost no decoding of its signal the only problem is the media
that you store it on.

 

[V00D00]

I say digital has the potential, because no matter what you cannot make a 1:1 copy of an analog source. There will always be variations. I say potential because you would need to make copies every so often when the material degrades. Analog is just not capable of 1:1.

 

[Googer]

Originally posted by: V00D00
I say digital has the potential, because no matter what you cannot make a 1:1 copy of an analog source. There will always be variations. I say potential because you would need to make copies every so often when the material degrades. Analog is just not capable of 1:1.

Yes, digital media has the technological advantage.

If they ever come out with a media type that could store analogue signals with out ever degrading, I would recomend it over digital for your scenerio. But we all know that magnetic tape does not last much longer than 20-30 years. (i have heard some analogue tapes of my grandmother talking from the 60/70's and were there but faded)

 

[Googer]

Originally posted by: mrscintilla
I watched some porn cdrom I bought 6 years ago. still going on..... long enough for you?

That is great, and I hope you really enjoied it. I am not surprised that a 6 year old commerialy pressed cd-rom still works after 6 years. My Mc Hammer CD still works (1991?). Commercialy Press Discs are differant than homade CD-ROMS. CD-R is subject to degradation and COMMERCIAL CD's are not as likely to fade.

 

[0roo0roo]

i dunno, stuff i care about gets archived on double copies. and when better media comes out..just transfer. its a bit of work, but it gets easier each time i guess. 1dvdr=6cdr...etc. single layer blueray will hold 25gb i believe. so archiving ur pics or whatever will just get easier. copying analog is just a pain. its real time.. it degrades each copy, media doesn't increase capacity over time