Which is better for video capture?

bluemax

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Apr 28, 2000
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I have two cards capable of taking in video, but will consider selling them to get what I need.
It's a fairly small project, but our youth group kids may be making a short "movie". :)
Our video camera(s) are just plain old analog, do no digital/firewire stuff.

This will most likely mean lots of editing on the PC.... kids will be kids. :)

My current cards? A Happauge WinTV Go (can only record in AVI) and an old-school ATI All-in-Wonder Pro (pre-Rage128).
Is recording in MPEG a big deal? Would an AIW 7500/8500DV be a better idea for quality? (The remote would be nice...)

Quality and simplicity to use are critical factors here... low price is another.
Suggestions greatly appreciated. :)
 

Lord Evermore

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Oct 10, 1999
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The quality of the video will probably be about the same between all those possible cards. The GPU on the card is entirely disconnected from video capture.

The "avi" format isn't technically a single format. There's raw AVI, which is just the raw data for every frame, with no compression, but AVI is also a "wrapper" which can contain many other formats. Most Divx and MPEG4 files you see will have an AVI wrapper, even though it uses compression, not raw AVI. Your TV card outputs a raw data stream to the host CPU, which then performs any compression, and that's only dependent on the software you have. The WinTV-Go should allow at least MPEG2 format compression even if it's saved as an AVI. Sometimes it's not named MPEG2, the software may only give you "quality" settings. Lower quality means higher compression. You can also download free software, or purchase software, which allows you to capture in many formats and with various other editing features (cropping during the capture, editing after the capture, et cetera).

When you capture video, from perhaps a coax input, the TV tuner on the card converts the signal to one that the capture chip on the card can work with. If you use RCA inputs or S-Video, then it goes directly to the chip since there's no "tuning" needed. The chip converts it to digital data, and sends it to the processor. The CPU then performs whatever compression functions you've set in software (Divx, MPEG2 or MPEG4, anything you want, depending on the software). After it's compressed, or immediately if you're saving to raw AVI format without compression, the CPU sends the data to the hard drive or whatever other storage you're using. Of course, the system's memory is where the data is stored while it "streams" and the CPU works with it from there, not holding all the data at once, and the data for each frame is erased after the CPU is done with it.

If you had a hardware MPEG2 encoder, the CPU would offload the compression to the encoder, which allows a slower CPU to handle high compression ratios. But MPEG2 is somewhat old-fashioned now. Divx and MPEG4 offer significantly better compression (smaller file sizes) with the same quality, and most systems with moderately fast CPU's can handle video capture just fine even at higher resolutions and compression rates. Current video cards have onboard DEcompression routines, to allow varying amounts of CPU cycle offloading for watching videos or DVDs. However that's only for MPEG2 (ATi is adding Divx decompression in their next cards), and does not do any work when you're ENcoding a video.

Whether the system you have will be able to do what you want depends on three things: the hard drive speed, the CPU speed, and the resolution of the video you want to capture. The type and rate of compression you choose is dependent on those things.

If you have a very large video resolution, like 640x480, that's a very large amount of data per frame. Raw AVI video takes something like 35GB per hour. Your choices are to try to capture the best quality you can with little or no compression, or try to reduce the data needed to be stored by using compression.

If you try for best quality, with no compression, the hard drive has to be pretty fast; a single fast drive can possibly just barely do it without frame loss but not likely at 30fps; a striped IDE RAID set with two fast drives is fast enough to do it with no loss of frames, at 30fps. Anytime the drive can't store the data and be ready for the next bits fast enough, the processor will simply get rid of the data so it can deal with the next frame, meaning you lose frames.

If you opt for compression, you get a slight loss of quality, but since you're capturing from (I assume) a VHS camera, and since it's not vital for these projects that it be great video, it's not that important. Even a decent amount of compression with Divx gives you video that's almost as good as a DVD (assuming a good source video). Compression requires a fast CPU though, so that it can work with each frame, then send it to the hard drive (which can be not quite as fast now, since the frame is compressed and has less data to be stored). If the CPU isn't done with the current frame, the capture card simply disposes of it and attempts to send the next one, over and over until the CPU is done. A very slow CPU could lose dozens of frames for every frame that it does capture. I found that with moderate compression, my 1GHz Athlon managed to capture with a perhaps 2% loss of frames. This is essentially unnoticeable, and that was at a medium resolution at 30fps. 15fps would have been a cakewalk, and is usually sufficient for school project type things.
 

bluemax

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Apr 28, 2000
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And that, folks, is why he's an "Elite" member. ;)

Thanks for the wealth of info. I'll be running the main editing on my biggest machine, the P4 1.5GHz Dell. SDRam. [sigh]
Hardware compression to ease the CPU burden would be nice, and probably result in decent quality. Only the ATI AIW's from 7500 up have that (I believe)... I don't need a big gaming card, though I wouldn't complain much. ;)

I need to go easy on hard drive space - this 20gig 5400 will get a workout! Time to upgrade methinks..... but cash is tight and this is coming out of MY pocket, though it's for the youth group. Good thing I'm finally working again!! (Yet I'm up at 1AM????)
 

Lord Evermore

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Oct 10, 1999
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A 2 hour DVD can be ripped at 720x480 resolution at 30fps and made to fit on a single CD with decent quality, using Divx. You can download "divx calculators" that let you put in the resolution and running time, and it will tell you what compression settings to use to make the file a particular size. Drive space shouldn't be a problem (though speed would be if you tried to capture to raw AVI). I think your system should be able to deal with a capture at 15fps and a bit lower resolution; SDRAM shouldn't hobble it too badly for this project I think.

Keep in mind that if you're going to do any post-capture editing, you want to use the least compression possible, so that you have better quality to start with, then you can compress it a bit further later if you really need to make a smaller file size. Compressing an already digitized video doesn't have any problems with frame loss, as the CPU simply pulls each frame from the file as it finishes the previous one, so even a very slow CPU can do it, it just might take awhile. My 1GHz could convert a DVD to moderately compressed Divx at faster than realtime at full resolution.

NONE of the current video cards has hardware MPEG2 compression. ATi advertises MPEG2 capture at 720x480 at 30fps without mentioning that it isn't hardware-based, they just provide software that allows MPEG2 encoding. Earlier versions only used their own proprietary VCR1 format and maybe MPEG. MPEG2 should be enough compression for you to use your current drive for a short video, and you can later recompress with other software if you want it smaller, if you can't get other software to work with your capture card that can compress to Divx or MPEG4 directly.
 

bluemax

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Apr 28, 2000
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Hmmm..... So if that's the case, I should spend the money for a big drive and just do raw AVI for editing purposes. Convert to MPEG/Divx afterwards. Sounds reasonable... either the old AIW-Pro or Happauge TV card should do this decently. :)
Actually, the ATI card is only in a P2 machine, so I'd either have to upgrade it or record with only the Happauge TV card on the Dell.
Or record on the slug itself and transfer the file over to the Dell....
Which almost brings me full-circle... which would be better for capturing? Old ATI or Happauge? Or something else?
 

Krye

Senior member
Aug 26, 2001
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You are correct sir! Capturing in uncompressed format will yield the most versital solution as you can then edit it and recompress later with less quality loss. However you will need quite a bit of HD space to do it. 30 minutes at a resolution of 320x240 eats up 8GB on your HD. However, you can then turn around and edit that however you want and then compress it using divx to a clean 200MB that'll look great.

Either one of those cards should be able to capture uncompressed for you without issue.
 

SearchMaster

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2002
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Lord Evermore,

I gotta tell ya, that was a FANTASTIC post. Rarely do you see pretty much everything you need to know in a single, concise post.

Bravo!
 

Pauli

Senior member
Oct 14, 1999
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Great info Lord Evermore.

I would like to add one thing. Capturing Raw video does provide the best results, but is really not necessary. Those of us who own miniDV cameras know that DV format is great for video editing and takes up much less space than Raw video (I believe about one-fourth). Canopus makes a pure hardware device that allows analog video to be captured in DV format through a Firewire port. Many miniDV cameras provide pass-through capability for this purpose (this is what I do). 1 hour of DV video is about 14GB. Lord quoted 35GB per hour for Raw video, but I think it is probably closer to 50GB per hour.
 

Lord Evermore

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Oct 10, 1999
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Ooh, one thing I forgot. WinXP or 2k would be best for this, with NTFS. FAT32 has a limit of 4GB per file, which means the software needs to be able to create a new file every time that limit is reached, and not all software does that properly. Even if it does, that may mean a lot of work piecing together the files for editing, if your software won't automatically grab all the parts, and then you have to make sure any file you save is less than 4GB. However the software you use to create the AVI file may cause a limitation for you, too. AVI 1.0 is limited to 4GB file sizes, and some apps won't even play back a file larger than 2GB. Encoders that use AVI 2.0 or DirectShow can create unlimited size AVI files, but you need a DirectShow app to play it back (of course, Windows Media Player works for that).

So, I guess really it may not matter what you do, yo may run into a 2GB file size limit. :)

I've yet to own even an analog camcorder, let alone a DV camera. I'm not sure if it's possible with all or any software to encode to DV format, but it would certainly be good to use that for the initial capture to save drive space, while not needing the processor to do the high compression of Divx or MPEG4.

I am the king of long, detailed, pedantic posts. :) Some of this I just learned 30 seconds ago.

www.divx-digest.com has a lot of useful information to help with the encoding and editing part, not just for Divx format, either.
 

rbV5

Lifer
Dec 10, 2000
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encode to DV format, but it would certainly be good to use that for the initial capture to save drive space
I'd recommend a lossless codec like Huffuv for analog capture instead. It'll give you 2:1 compression without losing quality, plus its great for editing as it keeps the footage frame based and is very fast.

Bluemax, are you going to output the final to tape? or some digital format? There are some things to consider depending on what your final format will be and what your audience is (what are they going to playback the video with?)
 

bluemax

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Apr 28, 2000
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Final output? Probably plain old VHS. ;) Ancient and Analog - that's our ticket to ride! :D
Never heard of that codec before.... anything special to making it work? Of course... I'm gonna' need video editing software. I should just get an AIW 7500 to get the software and remote. :(
 

DrPizza

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Mar 5, 2001
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Wow, this is the thread I needed! Thank you much for the great information. I'd like to turn my computer into a "vcr" but record to dvd instead... you lifted my spirits as I thought it was going to cost a fortune.