Which direction are things headed in?

[Locut0s]

A while ago I made a post in which I questioned if America was starting to show some fanciest elements in politics and general political atmosphere.

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...2&threadid=1430596

Understandably that ruffled a few feathers, though I made it clear I wasn't making a comparison to Nazi Germany or anything close to that. Anyway I'd like to ask a different though related question this time. In which direction do you yourself feel politics have moved both in the US and in the world at large over the course of the past 4 or 5 years?

Two things that have surprised me both in their sudden onset or flareup and in their scope have been the vocal growth in the Christian right and the negative views espoused by many of Europe.

 

[dmcowen674]

You tell me. I'm sure it's in the millions in the almighty U.S. that spends billions and billions to other Countries:

"Official" U.K. Govt report says only a 100,000 are homeless. Sounds more like the Iraqi Minister of Disinformation that the Amercans are not in Bagdad.

12-13-2004 Almost half a million homeless in Britain

"When you add in the 380,000 'hidden homeless' - those living in hostels, squats and other places - there are nearly half a million homeless people in the UK today"

 

[PatboyX]

is "shitty" a direction?

 

[Pliablemoose]

Yep, we've become a fascist state, from what I remember about the top secret plans I was shown, we're planning a takeover of Canada, then Mexico.

Of course, one could see that this was a natural progression after 9-11, we'll over react, hose our economy for a while, stomp on the Democrats for a decade or 2, and then swing back a bit more liberal. Ever seen a waveform?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Yep, we've become a fascist state, from what I remember about the top secret plans I was shown, we're planning a takeover of Canada, then Mexico.

Of course, one could see that this was a natural progression after 9-11, we'll over react, hose our economy for a while, stomp on the Democrats for a decade or 2, and then swing back a bit more liberal. Ever seen a waveform?

Ever try to understand and free yourself from the unconscious factors that drive the masses of individuals?

 

[Zebo]

We hav'nt rounded up too many semites yet only about 5000 between FBI, DOD, and offshore prisions.

Plus our secret death "trails" for them have'nt even started yet. nor have we gased them yet.

Not even comparable to NAZI germany on size and scope.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Zebo
We hav'nt rounded up too many semites yet only about 5000 between FBI, DOD, and offshore prisions.

Plus our secret death "trails" for them have'nt even started yet. nor have we gased them yet.

Not even comparable to NAZI germany on size and scope.

Nope, but the self justification is all in place. We were attacked and all's fair in love and war. The beast has been awakened and walks the land, the monster that is right to hate the other.

 

[slurmsmackenzie]

Originally posted by: Zebo
We hav'nt rounded up too many semites yet only about 5000 between FBI, DOD, and offshore prisions.

Plus our secret death "trails" for them have'nt even started yet. nor have we gased them yet.

Not even comparable to NAZI germany on size and scope.

seen any full blooded indians lately? smoke signals from your neighbor "mows with a rider's" house?

no, cuz they're all but gone. sure we don't gas jews, but erradicated the indians in a short period of time. oh and systematically killed the buffalo so as to starve them. find me one of each.... just one.

death trails? am i the only one that remembers 7th grade history? let me march your kin from fertile southern land to a hunk of desert in the midwest (not with uhauls, mind you) then find oil and boot you even further down the line!

i'm sorry, are we talking about sports records or human atrocities?

 

[Grunt03]

Right, left straight, wait no backwards......

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Yep, we've become a fascist state, from what I remember about the top secret plans I was shown, we're planning a takeover of Canada, then Mexico.

Of course, one could see that this was a natural progression after 9-11, we'll over react, hose our economy for a while, stomp on the Democrats for a decade or 2, and then swing back a bit more liberal. Ever seen a waveform?

Ever try to understand and free yourself from the unconscious factors that drive the masses of individuals?

IIRC, I already mentioned I quit taking hallucinogens several decades ago

 

[daveshel]

Yes, we have shifted farther to the right than at any point in our history. Apparently, some of you think that the absence of the same manifestations that presented in Nazi Germany (killing Jews and taking over our neighbors) mean that we are not drifting toward fascism. Somebody at one point had a link to some resources that defined or listed signs of fascism - anybody have that handy now?

 

[piasabird]

If we did not heed the Al-Quida Threat we would suffer the same fate as the Jews. Be careful how you tread. The path of the pacifist can lead to doom and destruction. Afganistan is a good example of that.

Imagine the whole earth where someone like Bin Ladin is in charge.

When the USA opposes Bin Ladin and the Al-Quida organization they are opposing Tyrany and religious prosection. Remember how the tyrany of the British foced Catholic Irish people to starve? Remember the history or you will be doomed to repeat it.

 

[irwincur]

Is this the political whacko thread?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Yep, we've become a fascist state, from what I remember about the top secret plans I was shown, we're planning a takeover of Canada, then Mexico.

Of course, one could see that this was a natural progression after 9-11, we'll over react, hose our economy for a while, stomp on the Democrats for a decade or 2, and then swing back a bit more liberal. Ever seen a waveform?

Ever try to understand and free yourself from the unconscious factors that drive the masses of individuals?

Ever stop to think that you're the one that is brainwashed?

 

[daveshel]

Originally posted by: piasabird
If we did not heed the Al-Quida Threat we would suffer the same fate as the Jews. Be careful how you tread. The path of the pacifist can lead to doom and destruction. Afganistan is a good example of that.

Imagine the whole earth where someone like Bin Ladin is in charge.

When the USA opposes Bin Ladin and the Al-Quida organization they are opposing Tyrany and religious prosection. Remember how the tyrany of the British foced Catholic Irish people to starve? Remember the history or you will be doomed to repeat it.

Pretty extreme observation, and not well grounded. First of all, the OP suggested that the US is moving toward fascism, not that Bin Laden is fascist. Second, how has pacifism caused death and destruction in Afghanistan? But most of all, how does the US fight to oppose tyranny by imposing it on its won citizens?

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
seen any full blooded indians lately? smoke signals from your neighbor "mows with a rider's" house?

no, cuz they're all but gone. sure we don't gas jews, but erradicated the indians in a short period of time. oh and systematically killed the buffalo so as to starve them. find me one of each.... just one.

death trails? am i the only one that remembers 7th grade history? let me march your kin from fertile southern land to a hunk of desert in the midwest (not with uhauls, mind you) then find oil and boot you even further down the line!

i'm sorry, are we talking about sports records or human atrocities?

So you're saying that events that predated Nazi Germany are evidence that since then, America is moving closer to fascism? Or perhaps you're saying that modern-day Americans would have no issue with killing, raping and pillaging Native Americans today? Relevance, stat.

Originally posted by: daveshel

Originally posted by: piasabird
If we did not heed the Al-Quida Threat we would suffer the same fate as the Jews. Be careful how you tread. The path of the pacifist can lead to doom and destruction. Afganistan is a good example of that.

Imagine the whole earth where someone like Bin Ladin is in charge.

When the USA opposes Bin Ladin and the Al-Quida organization they are opposing tyranny and religious persecution. Remember how the tyranny of the British foced Catholic Irish people to starve? Remember the history or you will be doomed to repeat it.

Pretty extreme observation, and not well grounded. First of all, the OP suggested that the US is moving toward fascism, not that Bin Laden is fascist. Second, how has pacifism caused death and destruction in Afghanistan? But most of all, how does the US fight to oppose tyranny by imposing it on its own citizens

It's not an extreme observation in the least. Goals of Al-Qaeda, as reported by the BBC:

Al-Qaeda claims to be avenging wrongs committed by Christians and Jews against Muslims over the ages. It wants to re-shape the Muslim world, replacing secular states with a single Islamic political leadership. It also wants to drive Americans and other non-Muslims from Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam's holiest sites.

Measured by their actions to date in the West, as well as what their influence has led to in Afghanistan - it is more than reasonable to state that the tools of tyranny and religious persecution are not unknown to this organization. Even if America does subscribe to its own particular ideology that may not be perfectly tolerant with others, tens of millions of theists practise in the country with little to nothing in the way of religious persecution reported. Thus you could easily state that America is an opponent of fascism. Saddam was something of a Stalinist as well, but I suppose it's not worth bringing that topic into this conversation.

What tyranny is the U.S. imposing on its own citizens?

I don't know how pacifism and Afghanistan relate.

 

[slurmsmackenzie]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
seen any full blooded indians lately? smoke signals from your neighbor "mows with a rider's" house?

no, cuz they're all but gone. sure we don't gas jews, but erradicated the indians in a short period of time. oh and systematically killed the buffalo so as to starve them. find me one of each.... just one.

death trails? am i the only one that remembers 7th grade history? let me march your kin from fertile southern land to a hunk of desert in the midwest (not with uhauls, mind you) then find oil and boot you even further down the line!

i'm sorry, are we talking about sports records or human atrocities?

So you're saying that events that predated Nazi Germany are evidence that since then, America is moving closer to fascism? Or perhaps you're saying that modern-day Americans would have no issue with killing, raping and pillaging Native Americans today? Relevance, stat.

Originally posted by: daveshel

Originally posted by: piasabird
If we did not heed the Al-Quida Threat we would suffer the same fate as the Jews. Be careful how you tread. The path of the pacifist can lead to doom and destruction. Afganistan is a good example of that.

Imagine the whole earth where someone like Bin Ladin is in charge.

When the USA opposes Bin Ladin and the Al-Quida organization they are opposing tyranny and religious persecution. Remember how the tyranny of the British foced Catholic Irish people to starve? Remember the history or you will be doomed to repeat it.

Pretty extreme observation, and not well grounded. First of all, the OP suggested that the US is moving toward fascism, not that Bin Laden is fascist. Second, how has pacifism caused death and destruction in Afghanistan? But most of all, how does the US fight to oppose tyranny by imposing it on its own citizens

It's not an extreme observation in the least. Goals of Al-Qaeda, as reported by the BBC:

Al-Qaeda claims to be avenging wrongs committed by Christians and Jews against Muslims over the ages. It wants to re-shape the Muslim world, replacing secular states with a single Islamic political leadership. It also wants to drive Americans and other non-Muslims from Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam's holiest sites.

Measured by their actions to date in the West, as well as what their influence has led to in Afghanistan - it is more than reasonable to state that the tools of tyranny and religious persecution are not unknown to this organization. Even if America does subscribe to its own particular ideology that may not be perfectly tolerant with others, tens of millions of theists practise in the country with little to nothing in the way of religious persecution reported. Thus you could easily state that America is an opponent of fascism. Saddam was something of a Stalinist as well, but I suppose it's not worth bringing that topic into this conversation.

What tyranny is the U.S. imposing on its own citizens?

I don't know how pacifism and Afghanistan relate.

how about blacks in the 60's?
japanese in the 40's?

 

[Steeplerot]

"We are turning the corner!"

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
"We are turning the corner!"

Nice link. :thumbsup:

Says it all!

 

[CaptnKirk]

Excuse me, but is this the "Handbasket to Hell" ?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: piasabird
If we did not heed the Al-Quida Threat we would suffer the same fate as the Jews. Be careful how you tread. The path of the pacifist can lead to doom and destruction. Afganistan is a good example of that.

Imagine the whole earth where someone like Bin Ladin is in charge.

When the USA opposes Bin Ladin and the Al-Quida organization they are opposing Tyrany and religious prosection. Remember how the tyrany of the British foced Catholic Irish people to starve? Remember the history or you will be doomed to repeat it.

You've got to be kidding me. Should we really be that scared of terrorists? I sort of doubt it. They need dealing with, that's for sure. But an all out fight like we had against Nazi Germany? Please, the terrorists and their supporters wouldn't have a chance. Not a chance. There just aren't enough of them, and they don't have anything near the technology and training that we do. People talk about the nuclear threat from "rogue nations", but think about it. Iran nukes one of our cities, and we turn their whole country into a sheet of glass 20 minutes later. Who would risk that?

I think people forget just exactly what this country is capable of. Relativly to history, Iraq and Afghanistan are games. Dave Barry, in one of his few serious articles, said one reason so many pepole in the Middle East cheer for and support the terrorists is that they know we won't take the gloves off. But he's wrong, I think we would if it came to that. And all I have to say is that if it comes to that, I'll be glad I'm on our side.

I don't think most people are really pacifists, there is a difference between being reluctant and unwilling to fight.

 

[sandorski]

History always proceeds Forward. Whether that's Forward to Heaven on Earth or Hell on Earth is the big question. There are steps to Heaven and there are steps to Hell, to reach either destination steps must be taken. Watch your step!

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: piasabird
If we did not heed the Al-Quida Threat we would suffer the same fate as the Jews. Be careful how you tread. The path of the pacifist can lead to doom and destruction. Afganistan is a good example of that.

Imagine the whole earth where someone like Bin Ladin is in charge.

When the USA opposes Bin Ladin and the Al-Quida organization they are opposing Tyrany and religious prosection. Remember how the tyrany of the British foced Catholic Irish people to starve? Remember the history or you will be doomed to repeat it.

You've got to be kidding me. Should we really be that scared of terrorists? I sort of doubt it. They need dealing with, that's for sure. But an all out fight like we had against Nazi Germany? Please, the terrorists and their supporters wouldn't have a chance. Not a chance. There just aren't enough of them, and they don't have anything near the technology and training that we do. People talk about the nuclear threat from "rogue nations", but think about it. Iran nukes one of our cities, and we turn their whole country into a sheet of glass 20 minutes later. Who would risk that?

I think people forget just exactly what this country is capable of. Relativly to history, Iraq and Afghanistan are games. Dave Barry, in one of his few serious articles, said one reason so many pepole in the Middle East cheer for and support the terrorists is that they know we won't take the gloves off. But he's wrong, I think we would if it came to that. And all I have to say is that if it comes to that, I'll be glad I'm on our side.

I don't think most people are really pacifists, there is a difference between being reluctant and unwilling to fight.

If Iran nuked a US city it would take far longer then 20 minutes to deliver a missle payload.
The amount of arms needed to level a semi VERY-mountainous country would produce enough fallout to poison the northern hemisphere's food supply and massive relocation of urban zones to the comparitivly underdeveloped southern hempisphere along with massive relocation projects of the majority of the worlds industry.. Starting with insects that pollinate (bees+ambient radiation do not mix.) all the way up the food chain life would begin to wilt becasue of our stupidity.
Very sad how little knowledge people have of the consequences of nuking ANYTHING.
Our current bombs are nowhere in the league of what we dropped on Japan those things were a sneeze compared to the sheer destructuion of our current lineup of warheads.
Hopefully the ignorance on this subject does not get us all radiated someday.




All you people who think "Nuking them till they glow or their country is glass" is a feasable means of retaliation are MAD!

 

[Locut0s]

Wow interesting replies. Another thing that has arisen since 9/11, well actually it's taken over world politics completely, that others have touched on is the crazy almost oxymoronic idea of a "war on terrorism". Terrorism of course isn't a concrete entity with boundaries that you can fight in the conventional military sense the way a country is. Terrorism arises largely through a combination of several factors including, poverty, lack of education, religious extremism, oppression etc... Declaring conventional war on such an amorphous idea as terrorism is like declaring a conventional war on Aids. It's like fighting fire with gasoline, while you no doubt will rout out and kill a few terrorists in the process, in the long run you will only succeed in inflaming the problem. You can't preemptively go after terrorism, you have to fight the root causes of it and seek to punish those who do end up committing terrorist acts. That is not what is going on in Iraq.

 

[OrByte]

The fundamental change in war doctrine is what is the biggest change for me.

Where before preemptive strike was an unreality...now it is all over the front pages.