which chip on the xbox actually fails with a RROD?

[zephyrprime]

I got 4 xbox motherboards for free the other day from a garage sale but they probably all have the RROD. What I want to know is which chip on the xbox actually fails? From my own prior experience, I know that it's definitely one of the gpu chips. I've seen on youtube that someone claims that it's actually the edram chip that typically fails. Also, is it the chip that delaminates from the package or the package that delaminates from the motherboard? I would think that it was the chip-to-package physical interface that fails since the thermal stresses would be maximal there. Also, mechanical solder bonds are fewer there than with the package-to-motherboard interface.

 

[robvp]

i was under the impression that was both the cpu and the gpu that could fail, the x clamp mod kits are commonly sold to fix the cpu but there is also mention of a gpu mod, the only xclamp i applied was for the cpu but it rrod again after a few months

 

[Arkaign]

RROD is due to the epidemic of poor solder combined with extreme heat, and it affects all but the final 'fat' 360 model fairly regularly. Only reballing with superior solder provides a long term fix along with proper cooling

 

[zephyrprime]

i was under the impression that was both the cpu and the gpu that could fail, the x clamp mod kits are commonly sold to fix the cpu but there is also mention of a gpu mod, the only xclamp i applied was for the cpu but it rrod again after a few months

In my own experience, if you run the xbox and touch the heatsinks, it is only the gpu heatsink that get's hot. The cpu heatsink barely gets warm. I already have an x clamp mod and honestly, after I installed it, I realized that buying it was a mistake. It doesn't really do very much and you can still have solder failure even with high mounting pressure. The x clamp makers claim that the xbox motherboard flexes a lot but my own observation of it is that it only flexes a little. The flexing it has is due to screws attaching to the underside of the heatsink mounts. This problem is easily resolved by simply not inserting those mounting screws or by only screwing them in very loosely.

 

[zephyrprime]

RROD is due to the epidemic of poor solder combined with extreme heat, and it affects all but the final 'fat' 360 model fairly regularly. Only reballing with superior solder provides a long term fix along with proper cooling

Yes, I already know that. But my question is still unanswered.

 

[RedRooster]

RROD is due to the epidemic of poor solder combined with extreme heat, and it affects all but the final 'fat' 360 model fairly regularly. Only reballing with superior solder provides a long term fix along with proper cooling

You gotta think the damage is already done to the chips though, no? If you overheat a GPU/CPU to point of failure, fixing the heatsink and solder is still only a temporary fix.
That's why I got all 4 of my 360 failures fixed under warranty and then immediately sold and bought a brand new one. Sure, I ended up spending $1000 out of pocket on hardware this gen, and that doesn't bother me.

 

[Drako]

Yes, I already know that. But my question is still unanswered.

Either one could cause the failure.

I blame the EU and RoHS :biggrin:

The issue was solder on the motherboard cracking - no Pb solder is brittle.

 

[Topweasel]

You gotta think the damage is already done to the chips though, no? If you overheat a GPU/CPU to point of failure, fixing the heatsink and solder is still only a temporary fix.
That's why I got all 4 of my 360 failures fixed under warranty and then immediately sold and bought a brand new one. Sure, I ended up spending $1000 out of pocket on hardware this gen, and that doesn't bother me.

You do know that you didn't get back your repaired mobo and that the refurbished unit you did get probably had a new mobo with new graphics chip/CPU/Memory?

As for fixing the GPU issue/overheating killing the chip. Well it certainly is the case generally the closer they run to max chip temp the faster it'll eat itself up inside. But poor choice of solder loosening while the mobo is also flexing causing solder points to break off isn't a symptom of a overheated chip. It's a symptom of lackluster manufacturing and pre-production testing.

 

[A5]

Either one could cause the failure.

I blame the EU and RoHS :biggrin:

The issue was solder on the motherboard cracking - no Pb solder is brittle.

Meh. Plenty of other companies engineer around it no problem and it's not like RoHS is a new thing. Lead-free solder is annoying to work with by hand, but it shouldn't have been a problem for Foxconn/Microsoft.

 

[Drako]

Meh. Plenty of other companies engineer around it no problem and it's not like RoHS is a new thing. Lead-free solder is annoying to work with by hand, but it shouldn't have been a problem for Foxconn/Microsoft.

It was relatively new back in 2005

It should not have been a problem for Foxconn, but it was. :biggrin:

 

[smackababy]

It was relatively new back in 2005

It should not have been a problem for Foxconn, but it was. :biggrin:

Well, when you pay Chinese kids $0.15 a day, what do you expect?

 

[Drako]

Well, when you pay Chinese kids $0.15 a day, what do you expect?

They paid significantly more than that for the Taiwanese engineers - probably $10.50 a day.

 

[lamedude]

EU had so much faith in lead free solder they only gave out 80 exemptions. In retrospect MS should've gave the EU that billion used for repairs to get on that list.

 

[BrightCandle]

Lead free solder caused a lot of problems for years, not just the Xbox360 but also a lot of motherboards and graphics cards. Lots of components would come with whining components that were moving in their joints and would often rapidly fail. Even now you get graphics cards and motherboards exhibiting the problem, its not easy to solve. I don't know what if anything the industry intends to do about it but I wouldn't call it a solved issue today, maybe the final xbox360 model did finally work around its problem but most likely with the move to a smaller process and hence less heat output rather than actually fixing the solder issue.

 

[mmntech]

Tin has a lower melting point than lead does. It's not that the tin melts from overheating, just weakens. Warping of the board caused by expansion and contraction is what I suspect causes the joints to fracture by metal fatigue.

The 360 experienced this problem mainly due to inadequate cooling. Microsoft selected two notoriously hot running chips. However, the fans and vents were too small to provide enough air flow. The heat sinks themselves are rather small too. Compound this by people putting their systems into (semi-)enclosed AV centres.

Now, while the 360 experienced this problem more frequently an earlier in its life, the PS3 is not invulnerable. It has a better heatsink & fan, but still poor ventilation. Especially around the power supply. The RROD and YLOD are the same thing.

The problems with the 360 and PS3 were gradually solved by die shrinks which made the chips more efficient. Thus putting out less heat. The 360S has a far better cooling system as it's fan draws cold air from the outside to cool the CPU. Much like a desktop.

It's worth noting that the seventh generation consoles were really the first that needed active air cooling. The Xbox and PS2 just had small case fans. So I suspect there was a lot of experimentation and they didn't get it right the first time. You can't just slap hot desktop grade chips into an enclosed space and call it a day.

As for ROHS, it certainly has been an unmitigated disaster. I get where they come from. Electronics get discarded, and most do not end up being recycled. There's a legitimate concern that lead would seep into the soil and groundwater. Though on the flip side, ROHS is causing electronics to fail prematurely, and it generates even more e-waste in the process. Arguably, that's just as bad for the environment. It's a classic case of regulation that had good intentions at heart but comes with big unforeseen consequences.

 

[smackababy]

As for ROHS, it certainly has been an unmitigated disaster. I get where they come from. Electronics get discarded, and most do not end up being recycled. There's a legitimate concern that lead would seep into the soil and groundwater. Though on the flip side, ROHS is causing electronics to fail prematurely, and it generates even more e-waste in the process. Arguably, that's just as bad for the environment. It's a classic case of regulation that had good intentions at heart but comes with big unforeseen consequences.

The best part is, they cite consumers not recycling electronics as being a problem, so they create rules that force consumers to buy more electronics (due to premature failures) and they don't recycle those either. Maybe if they had just enacted a paid recycle program like they do for aluminum and used to do for copper (it is regulated now in the US due to looting / stripping), more consumers would recycle their electronics. If I could get a dollar or two for the MB, or was even able to put my electronics in the recycle bin the city picks up, I might be more inclined to do something other than throw it away*.

*that is entirely fictitious, as I upgrade my PC parts often enough I just sell the old parts at discounted prices or I give older parts away to friends that want them.

 

[Arkaign]

Tin has a lower melting point than lead does. It's not that the tin melts from overheating, just weakens. Warping of the board caused by expansion and contraction is what I suspect causes the joints to fracture by metal fatigue.

The 360 experienced this problem mainly due to inadequate cooling. Microsoft selected two notoriously hot running chips. However, the fans and vents were too small to provide enough air flow. The heat sinks themselves are rather small too. Compound this by people putting their systems into (semi-)enclosed AV centres.

Now, while the 360 experienced this problem more frequently an earlier in its life, the PS3 is not invulnerable. It has a better heatsink & fan, but still poor ventilation. Especially around the power supply. The RROD and YLOD are the same thing.

The problems with the 360 and PS3 were gradually solved by die shrinks which made the chips more efficient. Thus putting out less heat. The 360S has a far better cooling system as it's fan draws cold air from the outside to cool the CPU. Much like a desktop.

It's worth noting that the seventh generation consoles were really the first that needed active air cooling. The Xbox and PS2 just had small case fans. So I suspect there was a lot of experimentation and they didn't get it right the first time. You can't just slap hot desktop grade chips into an enclosed space and call it a day.

As for ROHS, it certainly has been an unmitigated disaster. I get where they come from. Electronics get discarded, and most do not end up being recycled. There's a legitimate concern that lead would seep into the soil and groundwater. Though on the flip side, ROHS is causing electronics to fail prematurely, and it generates even more e-waste in the process. Arguably, that's just as bad for the environment. It's a classic case of regulation that had good intentions at heart but comes with big unforeseen consequences.

Outstanding post!

Yes I see it exactly that way. I also try to tell people that the PS3/360 were VERY high end for their particular timeframes, with high TDP stuff of course. It would be like today if we were looking at custom IBM 12-Core CPUs and GTX780/7970GE GPUs stuffed into the PS4/XB1.

As we can see, they have been scaled back massively by comparison. This should ensure much better reliability, and lower costs greatly, opening the door for price cuts much earlier in this gen (competition will demand it in fact).

 

[zephyrprime]

You do know that you didn't get back your repaired mobo and that the refurbished unit you did get probably had a new mobo with new graphics chip/CPU/Memory?

I really doubt it. I'm guessing that you just get back a used refurb motherboard with used chips. Microsoft probably just reflows/refluxes the bad chips.

 

[Drako]

I really doubt it. I'm guessing that you just get back a used refurb motherboard with used chips. Microsoft probably just reflows/refluxes the bad chips.

Negative - the motherboards are toast at that point - torn pads, traces, delamination, etc. Besides that, reworking the old board assemblies is actually more expensive than just replacing with a new board assembly.

 

[Topweasel]

I really doubt it. I'm guessing that you just get back a used refurb motherboard with used chips. Microsoft probably just reflows/refluxes the bad chips.

No I think people tend think more stuff gets repaired then really does. It's not worth the time nor the money to fix a something like that. Nah they just plop in a new board and send it on it's way. Then scrap the old board to a recycler and get money back on the raw materials.

 

[smackababy]

No I think people tend think more stuff gets repaired then really does. It's not worth the time nor the money to fix a something like that. Nah they just plop in a new board and send it on it's way. Then scrap the old board to a recycler and get money back on the raw materials.

When I sent in a RROD, I didn't even get the same console back. The manufactured date was different.

 

[Arkaign]

When I sent in a RROD, I didn't even get the same console back. The manufactured date was different.

Yep.

Training + paying engineers and technicians to physically repair RROD = LOL.

Microsoft (nor Sony) would never do such a crazy thing. Much faster + lower re-failure rate (due to unseen damages that might take time or be effectively impossible to test for in a time-efficient fashion) + cheaper due to no sophisticated labor process = they just replace the damn thing and call it a day.

 

[HeXen]

Is this why the new XBone is so massively ugly. Huge...I meant huge.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Is this why the new XBone is so massively ugly. Huge...I meant huge.

I wouldn't exactly call it ugly, nor huge really. It has a nice big fan (cool but quiet) and has a lot of ports on the back.

 

[HeXen]

Well if it were a PC case, no one would buy it.