Which audio card

[clarnibass]

First of all, I see there isn't a forum for this (as apposed to video) so if you know about an audio-computer forum it would be great.

I'm going to record music to my computer using software like Cubase and Vegas. I will record acoustic instruments and also use virtual instruments and MIDI.
I need a reasonable card which is not too expensive.
My options are:

M-Audio - Audiophile 192 (better than the 2496 right?) - $245

E-MU - 1212M - $375

Echo - Mia MIDI - $225

You can see the prices are expensive (almost twice), and ordering from the USA (in case I find someone to bring it from there, ordering internationally would become the same price almost so not worth it) but it's a risk beause of the warrenty (the store here will replace it if it is not good).

M-Audio is very reputable, and I hear a lot more problems about the E-MU card, but the E-MU is supposed to have much better sound quality. The Mia I know nothing about, but it's in the same price range and has MIDI. All three don't have an external input/output box (I would go for the Delta-44 if it had MIDI).
I guess it comes down to weather or not I will notice the sound difference bettwen the M-Audio and E-MU (if it's that big, I will pay the extra for the E-MU), and will any of these cards give me latency problems more than the others.
My acoustic enviorment is not so great (I'm just beginning to record, nothing too professional).

I hope some can help me or direct me to the right place.
Thank you very much.

 

[arswihart]

The best deal you can get is a used LynxOne on eBay, the Lynx cards have vastly better ADC/DAC conversion on the level of outboard rack units from Apogee for example. Seriously, I recently bought an Echo Layla 3G with thoughts of replacing my LynxOne and Mackie mixer combination, but the sound quality was so noticably inferior that I decided to sell off the brand new Layla on eBay and keep my LynxOne. You'll see them going for $150 sometimes which is such a steal its really sad that they don't fetch more money, but you can take advantage of this. Then get yourself a Mackie 1202-VLZ pro mixer (also about $150 on eBay) to go with it and you'll have a kick ass recording setup. This mixer has highly regarded mic preamps for connecting all types of microphones, or you can plug your guitar directly into it, or your keyboard. Also it has RCA jacks so you can plug your soundcard into it with a stereo 1/8" to dual RCA adapter cable, if you want to.

LynxOne specs briefly:
* 24-bit analog audio (stereo XLR in and out)
* 24-bit/96 kHz digital i/o (stereo AES/EBU in and out, optional SPDIF adapter cables)
* pro level balanced i/o
* dual midi ports (2 in, 2 out) <---very nice feature
* flexible synchronization
* multiple os's and platforms
* multi-card support

LynxOne official page
Review of LynxOne from SoundonSound magazine
Here's an eBay auction that just started, its no reserve so you could get it really cheap!

Let me know if you have any other questions. The cards you mentioned are all nice, but I feel this combo (Lynx + mixer) is truely on a whole other level due to the flexibility of having a mixer and the amazing AD/DA conversion of the Lynx, and its dual MIDI ports.

 

[clarnibass]

First of all, I'm not sure why this is on the motherboard forum. I'm pretty sure I posted this on the hardware forum, probably my mistake. If someone can please move this thread to the hardware forum it would be great.

Arswihart, I appreciate your help very much, but I can't order anything from eBay (I can explain why but it's not important).
The mackie mixer you suggested cost about $500 here, not an option. I will get a mixer anyway, probably a Behringer.

 

[arswihart]

where are you, iraq?

ok, i'm getting the idea you don't care about audio quality since you want a Behringer, in that case just get the cheapest soundcard you can get, good luck

 

[ProviaFan]

There are mixers that are much better than Mackies, but they cost a heck of a lot more. Mackie makes good products that are affordable, and nothing to be ashamed of. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for Bear ringer, Carvin, or other ultra-cheap brands.

For the sound card, I would go with the M-Audio Audiophile 2496, as with the probable quality of your outboard gear, I doubt that the 192khz sample rate would be of any benefit other than making unnecessarily large file sizes, and use the money saved toward something better than a B********.

 

[clarnibass]

Originally posted by: arswihart
where are you, iraq?

well, not to far away from there - Israel.
I don't want to start dealing with the whole international shipping and no warrenty issues I'll have if I order from eBay. What if the mixer suddenly dies?

But, since I have no idea how bad the Behringer sounds like, I will go to the store and try it and also the Mackie. You've convinced me that I might be better off with a Mackie.
I was told by several people that for hobbyst recordings like mine, with not a great acoustic enviorment, a Behringer would be just fine, maybe they were wrong (still, the Mackie is $300 more than the Behringer).
If I do get the Mackie, will I notice much of a sound difference between the 1212M and the Audiophile?

By the way, the Audiophile 192 has balanced inputs unlike the 2496. Also, I'm pretty sure it's possible to work in 92Khz with it.

 

[halfpower]

Generally I hear that the 1212M has the best sound quality. I think it has the most features too. The Echo and the M-Audio have the reputation of being much user friendly. I got a 1212M several weeks ago. It took me two weeks of experimentation and tweaking before it would run with out hitches. It now runs without major problems. I think the minor problems that are still occurring can be avoided by following a strict operating procedure(Non-literal example: only scratch your left ear before facing Paris. If you do it afterwards Cubase will hang). Some of the E-mu bugs won't effect everybody, for example, when one tries to install the 1212M with French documentation, it goes ahead and installs it in English. I believe the French documentation is available online though....Anyway, the card operates predictably and is running with a 2ms latency.

Here are some forums

http://studio-central.com/phpbb
This forum is affiliated with an online store, but it is pretty big

http://producitonforums.com/emu
Un-official E-mu forum. Caution: If you have problems and go here for help, they might tell you to do all sorts of unnecessary system tweaking. Generally the crowd there seems to follow a blunt force approach to fixing problems and for me this approach did not even work.

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/
These are general musician forums.

If anyone knows of any additional computer-audio like forums I would like know about them.

 

[halfpower]

I got a Behringer with my 1212M. Judging by the specs, I'd say that Behringer is as sterile as can be. What are the drawbacks of Behringer mixers?

 

[ProviaFan]

Originally posted by: halfpower
I got a Behringer with my 1212M. Judging by the specs, I'd say that Behringer is as sterile as can be. What are the drawbacks of Behringer mixers?

Specs aren't everything. The live sound professionals that I've talked to all have a very bad opinion of Behringer, and not just of the equipment - the company has a reputation for ripping off other manufacturer's designs and reproducing them cheaper and crappier. The mixers are said to exhibit excessive cross-talk between channels, to be prone to failure, and (sometimes) to exhibit lower headroom than usual, among many other things. I get to mix on an Allen&Heath several times a week, and compared to that, Beh is nothing. Mackie may not be quite as good as A&H (and A&H is not quite as good as Midas), but the vast majority of people - myself included - would have a hard time telling the difference.

BTW, I hadn't noticed that the new Audiophile has balanced connectors - I saw the RCAs and thought that it was an unbalanced card like the 2496. Oops.

 

[arswihart]

Some other good mixers are the Yamaha MG12/4 series, also there's the MG12/4FX with seriously decent digital reverb effects included. I owned a MG12/4 before getting my Macia 1202VLZ-pro, and I'd have to say the difference between the two was very subtle, and I would go with which ever is cheaper rather than based on sound, because they are both pretty good. As for Behringer, I've never owned one of their mixers myself, but it is an overwhelming consesus to stay away because of the things proviafan mentioned. The Yamaha's are very reasonably priced too, much better than Mackie if you can't buy on eBay.

Sound on Sound magazine <---go here and read reviews of the cards you are interested in, they do a good job at this magazine

Given the difference in price between the Audiophile and the 1212M, I'd get whichever one suits your needs better in terms of features. I'm thinking both will have better sound quality than the Mia but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[halfpower]

My only misgiving, thus far, about the Behringers is that they have cheap plastic knobs. I could thorw my Boss guitar pedals down a flight of stairs and they would not break. My Fender might even survive such a fall. Not the Behringer.

 

[ProviaFan]

Originally posted by: halfpower
My only misgiving, thus far, about the Behringers is that they have cheap plastic knobs. I could thorw my Boss guitar pedals down a flight of stairs and they would not break. My Fender might even survive such a fall. Not the Behringer.

Some of the problems I mentioned wouldn't be likely to show up unless you're using the maximum capabilities of the board, which usually happens in a live house of worship situation, where the committee in charge of buying things (that never understands audio anyway) thinks they can get away with the cheapest crap possible (Behringer, Carvin, and the rest of that junk). In a recording environment at home, you're probably not going to encounter those issues as quickly. Still, I won't buy B******** out of principle.

 

[clarnibass]

Thank you very much.

It looks like only subscribers can read the reviews on Sound On Sound Magazine (or am I missing something). I registered and it still says only subscribers can enter the area of the reviews. From the small part I was able to see, the Audiophile 192 is supposed to have better sound plus the balanced i/o. I'm 99% sure I'm buying the Audiophile and not the 1212M because I read much more complaints about bugs in the 1212M.

"Lucky" for me, the same store sales both Mackie and Behringer, so as soon as I receive my microphones I'll go and listen to both and see if there is really such a difference. I'm using quotes, because it's the only store in the country that sells them...
Yamahas are sold in a different store, so I won't be able to try the Yamaha mixer with the exact same amp and speakers, which probably makes a bigger difference than the mixer.

 

[imported_Starman]

RME

 

[arswihart]

RME is kind of high-end for what he's looking for I think

the Audiophile should be fine with a Mackie or Yamaha mixer, good luck!

 

[clarnibass]

Arswihart, ProviaFan and Halfpower, it sounds like you have experience with recording audio and MIDI to your computer. I'd like to know what computer do you use? Especially motherboard, CPU, and memory. Also if you record in the same room as the computer, how do you keep it quiet?
Is there facts supporting the rumor that AMD is better for audio, but nForce4 boards are bad because of the PCI-E card taking too much recources?
From what I understand the best mobo is nForce3 but those have an annoying fan and I couldn't find one with such great reviews.
I pretty much decided to go for Intel (sorry for the dirty word, but reasons are that I'm not a professional so I probably wouldn't notice the differnce, and Intel is easier to handle overall), but is that good enough for audio work?
I won't be doing so much heavy work, but I would probably need a track with about 10-15 channels maybe, with some effects.
Thanks very much.

 

[arswihart]

at I've read about nforce4 based on RME's website regarding disappointing audio performance ---> read it here

Also, on Cubase.net and nuendo.com, they seem to concur that nforce3 or VIA platforms are better for Athlon64. Nforce2 works great too if not better than anything, but you of course can't use Athlon64 CPU's with those motherboards.

I think its hilarious that so many people don't understand that they can either change or unplug the fan on any motherboard, whether you just unplug it or replace the whole heatsink with a passive zalman and some collateral airflow, as long as your system works I wouldn't worry about anything at all. I have my fan unplugged but otherwise just leave the stock heatsink on my 9nda3+, works great.

To be quite honest, I didn't notice as big an improvement in performance going from nf2 to nf3 (CPU: 2600+ to 3500+) as I expected, of course you can run more plugins with more CPU, but overall stability and responsiveness are identical between nf2 and nf3.

So I don't know what you have now, but if its nf2, you can upgrade to nf3 for a similar experience with more processing power. I haven't tried VIA mobo's, but I understand they work great for DAW stuff too, I wouldn't hesitate to get an ASUS A8V if I were you, but the only thing is I don't think they overclock as well as nf3.

Avoid Intel I think unless its a Northwood and 865/75 mobo, those are great too I think. Cooler and faster than Prescott's, and you don't feel like an idiot for owning one.

 

[clarnibass]

Yes, that article on RME's website is where I read it too, plus on an Israeli forum.
I figured that since I won't have such heavy DAW work comparing with pros, it doesn't matter really if I get AMD or Intel and norce3 or nForce4 mobo. I'll just get the one that looks like it's the most stable.
I don't want a VIA chipset anyway because of the tourble with SATA.
I'm not going to overclock at all, so anything related to overclocking isn't an issue.

As far as what I have right now, it's just an old P3. This new computer will be the first time I'll have a DAW.

Thanks very much.

 

[Chode Messiah]

my audigy 4 pro has all of that crap u need