Which 9700 PRO Would You Get?
- Thread starter sephroth777
- Start date
whatever is the cheapest (probably ATI) because they are all the same unless you want to do some crazy vapochill overclocking scheme
NFS4
No Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 72,636
- 47
- 91
Neither of those. I got the FIC Radeon 9700 Pro from NewEgg for $295 shipped free. And yes, it comes clocked 325/310. I today did a "minor" overclock to 344/324.
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=FIC+AT010
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=FIC+AT010
Wolfsraider
Diamond Member
- Jan 27, 2002
- 8,305
- 0
- 76
definately whichever is cheapest which includes warranties(my ati retail has a five year warranty lol) provided the clock speeds are similar
(some like dell are changing from spec)
(some like dell are changing from spec)
if you feel like spending extra money on a card that just looks cooler i like the Hercules
otherwise just get the oem board heck get the 9700 standard and overclock it
otherwise just get the oem board heck get the 9700 standard and overclock it
None. I never waste money on high end video cards. One or two years its obsolete. I applaud those who do though, they donate their funds to Nvidia's and ATI's R&D department.
BD231
Lifer
- Feb 26, 2001
- 10,568
- 138
- 106
Everything is obsolete in 1 or 2 years tard, if people have enough money to blow on this stuff and if their happy with it then that's their bizz. You can say buying low to middle end crap is a waste to because it gets obsolete even faster, and I'm sure that high end stuff will have a much higher resale value once it's time to ditch it. Your not special for abstaining from the top end stuff, your anal and cheap or just plain can't afford it. I respect the people who buy what they feel they need, but insulting people who buy highend stuff is wack :disgust:.
Um, I didn't insult them. I said I applaud them, you got it backwards. Price to performance ratio is a lot worse for high end computer components. That's why I always stay one step behind the times and save a bundle. As for resale, screw resale, a computer is an asset that is constantly depreciating in value. Its almost always better for me to just keep my old stuff than to sell it and get a few bucks back. I would assume that is how it is for a lot of other people too.
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Wut he said. Its like buying a new BMW vs. a Buick or something. The BMW keeps its resale value, even moreso if its new. If you keep upgrading, you're basically paying depreciation on usage. When something is in its current "model year" demand is still high and the rate of depreciation is low, so by the time you unload it, the difference you paid and the amount you sell it for is about the difference for some hunk-of-junk from 3 product cycles back ($100). The difference is, you're saddled with that $100 initial investment til it depreciates to $0, meanwhile I'm hopping in my next raging ride and zooming along at ungodly frames with all eye-candy on
Chiz
BD231
Lifer
- Feb 26, 2001
- 10,568
- 138
- 106
I see, guess I took you wrong. You can't keep everything though man, you end up with a crap load of computer parts that are worth nothing, then your cranky girlfriend gets mad at you for having to much computer junk and makes you clean it up . What's worked best for me is buying mid to high end stuff then getting about 50 to 75% of what I paid for it back when new stuff comes out, that way investments don't seem so costly. I'm sure I'll have this 9700Pro ($270) for quite a long time, and when I get the urge to buy something, yeah I'll probably put it into another home system insted of reselling, I don't see how I could need any more speed at this point, and $270 is not that much IMO.
. What's worked best for me is buying mid to high end stuff then getting about 50 to 75% of what I paid for it back when new stuff comes out, that way investments don't seem so costly. I'm sure I'll have this 9700Pro ($270) for quite a long time, and when I get the urge to buy something, yeah I'll probably put it into another home system insted of reselling, I don't see how I could need any more speed at this point, and $270 is not that much IMO.appreciate the props....which card would you get (seeing if all of you would have the case where money was no object)....
I'd get the $235 Sapphire 9700 standard that has the 2.8ms Samsung BGA. Simple flash of the BIOS and you have a guaranteed Pro w/out risks of artifacting and failed software hacks. At worse, you get a unvasectomized 9700 w/out 1/2 its pipes
Chiz
Chiz
Where do they sell a 9700 non-pro with 2.8ns RAM? I thought that the 9700 was only different from the 9700 Pro because it used slower memory.
chizow:
I hate to put this burden on you, so I guess I should direct it towards anyone...
If anyone feels like writing a short summary of that long (200+ post) thread regarding hard/soft ware modding a 9500 or 9700 to a 9700/9700 pro, I would (and I'm sure many others would) appreciate it as I dont have the time or sanity to read through that entire thing. Could anyone post the _final_ results?
Thanks to anyone who feels like doing this, I think I speak for the masses
I hate to put this burden on you, so I guess I should direct it towards anyone...
If anyone feels like writing a short summary of that long (200+ post) thread regarding hard/soft ware modding a 9500 or 9700 to a 9700/9700 pro, I would (and I'm sure many others would) appreciate it as I dont have the time or sanity to read through that entire thing. Could anyone post the _final_ results?
- Am I better off buying a 9500 and upgrading it, or a 9700?
- Does it only work with Sapphire cards, or other models (or is the model unimportant)?
- At this point does it involve soldering or any other HW mods that most people will deem too risky to perform? Or is it a simple firmware upgrade, or a less simple but still relatively doable BIOS flash?
- As far as value vs. risk, is the average joe (ok, not the average joe, but the average enthusiast joe who would like to squeeze a little extra out of his components but isn't willing to risk lots of squandered money and fried HW) better off just biting the bullet for an unmodified card?
Thanks to anyone who feels like doing this, I think I speak for the masses
apoppin
Lifer
konichiwa I'll give it a shot, but I stopped reading that thread after about post 60. I'd seen all I needed to see to figure out what was going on and concluded ATi was too lazy to differentiate their parts and regulate what their OEMs were doing
OK, now that I got my little jab at ATi in there, I'll try to explain it the way I see it:
1) The core itself on the 9500/pro and 9700/pro are identical (all full-blown R300 by design); there may be SOME binning going on at ATi, given some of the mod failure rates and inability to achieve stock 9700pro speeds. More on this later.
2) The ONLY physical difference between a 9700 vs a 9700pro SHOULD be the memory speed. The PCB, memory interface, pipelines, core, basically all the guts are the same. Through the use of preset BIOS default core clocks (locking them at what you could call an underclock) and different rated RAM, ATi differentiates between the Pro, non-Pro, and "Gold". This is not uncommon, as nVidia has been differentiating their product line for some time using this strategy (we see it to some degree with CPUs as well, with various steppings producing similar speeds as higher rated chips).
This is where the 9700 and ATi's poor quality control benefits YOU We all know that Sapphire is ATi's major production partner. Well it seems their friends over in Taiwan have trouble keeping track of which card is supposed to go in which box, so they just slap the appropriate BIOS lock on their 9700's and ship em out the door to you!! So what you end up seeing is a BIOS locked card, with both underclocked RAM and Core, selling for $100 less than its identical siblings. Get yourself a hacked BIOS from Rage3d.com, flash your card, and you've got a full-blown 9700pro. Of course this will ONLY work if your 9700/Gold do indeed have the 2.8ns, most other OEMs do use cheaper RAM. Otherwise you'll still end up with an unlocked card that will be able to unleash the full speed of the core; the RAM will still be limited and may not approach stock Pro speeds.
3) The 128MB 9500 non-pro is very similar to the 9700's, except it does have physical alterations/differences. First of all, it will have slower RAM, probalby 3.X Hynix vs. the 9700 pro's 2.8ns Samsung. If we remember the "differences" between a 9500/pro and the 9700s, the 9500 has 1/2 the rendering pipelines AND 1/2 the 64-bit memory controllers of a 9700. Since we KNOW the cores are R300, its not a core difference, its something external. Well, guess what? The 128MB 9500 happens to have the same PCB as the 9700's, with its 4 memory controllers intact (64-bit x 4). All you need to do is enable the disabled 4 rendering pipes, and you've got yourself an un-neutered R300 core. This is done by either physical moving a resistor, or hardmod (similar to unlocking an Athlon), or doing one of the softmods (I haven't looked into the specifics of how these work, but there are a few ways). Again, your results will vary depending on the PCB-type you get, and you probably won't reach the OCing limits of the Pro's b/c of the memory (and possibly core binning). Guess who makes the one you want? You guessed it, Sapphire. Again, I mention possible binning, because there is a fail rate on both the softmod and hardmod when all 8 rendering pipes are enabled. Results are artifacting and errors, indicating the core is imperfect and the enabled pipes are defective. This is why I suggested going the 9700 route, you limit your risk.
4) The 9500pro is kinda the odd-man out here. Its got a full-blown R300 with all pipes intact running at full 9700 clock speeds and with fast RAM, but it doesn't have the PCB with 4 memory controllers (some might, I dunno, I stopped following up on it). IIRC the distinguishing features are whether or not all the RAM modules are on the front of the card.
Here's the 9700 you want for the BIOS mod - Note the user comments. This card has gone up $7 in the last few days, as I'm sure Newegg's usual forum lurkers have made note of the latest hot items and adjusted prices accordingly
Here's the 9500 128 MB version that could be softmodded - I'm no longer sure if this works, as there is a new "black" PCB version stocked. This may very well be the Grim Reaper from ATi in the form of a PCB revision. I would wait for some user feedback before going with the "black" version, but some retailers may still have the red PCBs that look IDENTICAL to the 9700 PCB.
Those of you that know more about the topic, feel free to correct me, as my post is laden with sarcasm and personal insight. But I think you'll find most of it is right on other than specifics of which card is capable and which is not.
Chiz
OK, now that I got my little jab at ATi in there,
I'll try to explain it the way I see it:1) The core itself on the 9500/pro and 9700/pro are identical (all full-blown R300 by design); there may be SOME binning going on at ATi, given some of the mod failure rates and inability to achieve stock 9700pro speeds. More on this later.
2) The ONLY physical difference between a 9700 vs a 9700pro SHOULD be the memory speed. The PCB, memory interface, pipelines, core, basically all the guts are the same. Through the use of preset BIOS default core clocks (locking them at what you could call an underclock) and different rated RAM, ATi differentiates between the Pro, non-Pro, and "Gold". This is not uncommon, as nVidia has been differentiating their product line for some time using this strategy (we see it to some degree with CPUs as well, with various steppings producing similar speeds as higher rated chips).
This is where the 9700 and ATi's poor quality control benefits YOU
We all know that Sapphire is ATi's major production partner. Well it seems their friends over in Taiwan have trouble keeping track of which card is supposed to go in which box, so they just slap the appropriate BIOS lock on their 9700's and ship em out the door to you!! So what you end up seeing is a BIOS locked card, with both underclocked RAM and Core, selling for $100 less than its identical siblings. Get yourself a hacked BIOS from Rage3d.com, flash your card, and you've got a full-blown 9700pro. Of course this will ONLY work if your 9700/Gold do indeed have the 2.8ns, most other OEMs do use cheaper RAM. Otherwise you'll still end up with an unlocked card that will be able to unleash the full speed of the core; the RAM will still be limited and may not approach stock Pro speeds.3) The 128MB 9500 non-pro is very similar to the 9700's, except it does have physical alterations/differences. First of all, it will have slower RAM, probalby 3.X Hynix vs. the 9700 pro's 2.8ns Samsung. If we remember the "differences" between a 9500/pro and the 9700s, the 9500 has 1/2 the rendering pipelines AND 1/2 the 64-bit memory controllers of a 9700. Since we KNOW the cores are R300, its not a core difference, its something external. Well, guess what? The 128MB 9500 happens to have the same PCB as the 9700's, with its 4 memory controllers intact (64-bit x 4). All you need to do is enable the disabled 4 rendering pipes, and you've got yourself an un-neutered R300 core. This is done by either physical moving a resistor, or hardmod (similar to unlocking an Athlon), or doing one of the softmods (I haven't looked into the specifics of how these work, but there are a few ways). Again, your results will vary depending on the PCB-type you get, and you probably won't reach the OCing limits of the Pro's b/c of the memory (and possibly core binning). Guess who makes the one you want? You guessed it, Sapphire
. Again, I mention possible binning, because there is a fail rate on both the softmod and hardmod when all 8 rendering pipes are enabled. Results are artifacting and errors, indicating the core is imperfect and the enabled pipes are defective. This is why I suggested going the 9700 route, you limit your risk.4) The 9500pro is kinda the odd-man out here. Its got a full-blown R300 with all pipes intact running at full 9700 clock speeds and with fast RAM, but it doesn't have the PCB with 4 memory controllers (some might, I dunno, I stopped following up on it). IIRC the distinguishing features are whether or not all the RAM modules are on the front of the card.
Here's the 9700 you want for the BIOS mod - Note the user comments. This card has gone up $7 in the last few days, as I'm sure Newegg's usual forum lurkers have made note of the latest hot items and adjusted prices accordingly
Here's the 9500 128 MB version that could be softmodded - I'm no longer sure if this works, as there is a new "black" PCB version stocked. This may very well be the Grim Reaper from ATi in the form of a PCB revision. I would wait for some user feedback before going with the "black" version, but some retailers may still have the red PCBs that look IDENTICAL to the 9700 PCB.
Those of you that know more about the topic, feel free to correct me, as my post is laden with sarcasm and personal insight.
But I think you'll find most of it is right on other than specifics of which card is capable and which is not.Chiz
[slightly off topic but not completely]
NFS4,
Does that FIC 9700 Pro have heatsinks for the RAM on the underside of the card? I've seen pics of the card with the heatsinks on the top, but I haven't seen a pic of the card flipped over so I can't verify. I am thinking of buying another 9700 Pro as I boneheadedly broke mine on Saturday.
Also, Have you tried pushing the OC as well as far as you can? I wanted to get a gauge of how far you can push that baby before you get artifacts or other anomalies. If you haven't tried or don't care to try it, just let me know.
Thanks in advance.Originally posted by: konichiwa
chizow:
I hate to put this burden on you, so I guess I should direct it towards anyone...
If anyone feels like writing a short summary of that long (200+ post) thread regarding hard/soft ware modding a 9500 or 9700 to a 9700/9700 pro, I would (and I'm sure many others would) appreciate it as I dont have the time or sanity to read through that entire thing. Could anyone post the _final_ results?
- Am I better off buying a 9500 and upgrading it, or a 9700?
- Does it only work with Sapphire cards, or other models (or is the model unimportant)?
- At this point does it involve soldering or any other HW mods that most people will deem too risky to perform? Or is it a simple firmware upgrade, or a less simple but still relatively doable BIOS flash?
- As far as value vs. risk, is the average joe (ok, not the average joe, but the average enthusiast joe who would like to squeeze a little extra out of his components but isn't willing to risk lots of squandered money and fried HW) better off just biting the bullet for an unmodified card?
Thanks to anyone who feels like doing this, I think I speak for the masses
Well, to simplify it even further for you: what I got from that thread was this: only a specific 9500 was mod-able to 9700/Pro, the Sapphire one with the memory in the 2-2 configuration (2 above, to to the side) as opposed to the one with 4 in a row (impossible to mod to 9700 Pro). Even with the right card, it was risky, with many people experiencing the dread "checkerboard" effect on their screen and the mod screwing up.
To save yourself a lot of grief, get a good 9700, which is guaranteed to have 8 pipelines/256-bit memory.
just dont get the hercules
i had 2 exchange mines three times
finally just got my money back..
too many hercules 9700pro cards are defected
1st generation not so good..im waiting...
p.s. if you do buy before you leave the store make sure to check it
b/c when they tape the card sometimes they wrap them too tight n damage the card...
i had 2 exchange mines three times
finally just got my money back..
too many hercules 9700pro cards are defected
1st generation not so good..im waiting...
p.s. if you do buy before you leave the store make sure to check it
b/c when they tape the card sometimes they wrap them too tight n damage the card...
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