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Where to learn it all?

B

Buddha Bart

Diamond Member
Well mabey that biting off a shade more than I can chew, but networking is one of my weakest area's of computer-dom, and It honestly seems interesting enough that I could pursue it.
So where do I start? I've already done most of the really simple stuff, setting up a small LAN in my parents house, sharing printers, managing a small file server at work, IPMasq'ing my desktop behind my linux box, etc. But its still mostly grabastic guessing and hoping most of the solutions are built in for me or easily copied.

Is there an anandtech-like equivilant in the world of networking? A place where I could read a few tutorials, and a few articles a week untill eventually things just started making sense (thats what I did here 2 years ago).

thanks for any info/help.

bart
 


<< Is there an anandtech-like equivilant in the world of networking? A place where I could read a few tutorials, and a few articles a week untill eventually things just started making sense (thats what I did here 2 years ago). >>

The big step in networking is learning WAN technologies, since they are orders of magnitude more complex than any LAN-based technology, and real $$ is at stake, since bandwidth isn't cheap (at least, REAL bandwidth isn't).

IMHO, Cisco's website is one of the best as far as sheer quantity and quality of networking information, from everything to legacy SNA networking to newer topics like optical, VoIP and QOS.

I use TCPmag.com quite frequently. It's Cisco certification-heavy, but has some interesting tutorials and articles, and even sponsors scheduled chats about various subjects (again, mostly cert. related).

If I had to give one overarching tip, it would be this: focus on learning concepts, not vendor-specific features. The second would be: Unless you have some crucial business need to know it, ignore any protocol suite in favor of TCP/IP. The third is: Learn the 7-layer OSI model. It is an essential framework to understanding &quot;how&quot; and &quot;where&quot; physical devices work.

In my own case, I was fortunate enough to get a good fundamental base from Novell's excellent courseware. Because my training focused on concepts, not just Novell's products and the Novell way, I came out years ahead of my peers who took the Microsoft way, only to find themselves completely clueless when it came to anything that did not have the M$ logo on it.
 


<<

<< Is there an anandtech-like equivilant in the world of networking? A place where I could read a few tutorials, and a few articles a week untill eventually things just started making sense (thats what I did here 2 years ago).

thanks for any info/help.

bart >>

The big step in networking is learning WAN technologies, since they are orders of magnitude more complex than any LAN-based technology, and real $$ is at stake, since bandwidth isn't cheap (at least, REAL bandwidth isn't).

IMHO, Cisco's website is one of the best as far as sheer quantity and quality of networking information, from everything to legacy SNA networking to newer topics like optical, VoIP and QOS.

I use TCPmag.com quite frequently. It's Cisco certification-heavy, but has some interesting tutorials and articles, and even sponsors scheduled chats about various subjects (again, mostly cert. related).

If I had to give one overarching tip, it would be this: focus on learning concepts, not vendor-specific features. The second would be: Unless you have some crucial business need to know it, ignore any protocol suite in favor of TCP/IP. The third is: Learn the 7-layer OSI model. It is an essential framework to understanding &quot;how&quot; and &quot;where&quot; physical devices work.

In my own case, I was fortunate enough to get a good fundamental base from Novell's excellent courseware. Because my training focused on concepts, not just Novell's products and the Novell way, I came out years ahead of my peers who took the Microsoft way, only to find themselves completely clueless when it came to anything that did not have the M$ logo on it. >>



Why do people insist on the OSI model? Its horrible and does not fit tcp/ip.
 


<< Why do people insist on the OSI model? Its horrible and does not fit tcp/ip. >>

Some truth in that, but in all honesty, no model really fits ANY protocol perfectly.

The DOD model probably fits TCP/IP a little better, but IMHO doesn't offer enough granularity in its conceptual layers to serve as an effective framework for visualizing data communication as it progresses through network devices. I had to learn both to certify, but have never given DOD another thought since. I use OSI to formulate, teach, argue, etc. every day.

Besides, how awesome is it to have the mnemonic Please Do Not Take Sales Peoples' Advice? Another piece of invaluable knowledge for any sysadmin, so it kinda kills two birds with one stone, eh?
 


<<

<< Why do people insist on the OSI model? Its horrible and does not fit tcp/ip. >>

Some truth in that, but in all honesty, no model really fits ANY protocol perfectly.

The DOD model probably fits TCP/IP a little better, but IMHO doesn't offer enough granularity in its conceptual layers to serve as an effective framework for visualizing data communication as it progresses through network devices. I had to learn both to certify, but have never given DOD another thought since. I use OSI to formulate, teach, argue, etc. every day.

Besides, how awesome is it to have the mnemonic Please Do Not Take Sales Peoples' Advice? Another piece of invaluable knowledge for any sysadmin, so it kinda kills two birds with one stone, eh? >>



Ok, the saying kicks ass. But tcp/ip was developed before OSI model. IT is what is used today. It is what should be the basis for further development instead of a model that does absolutely jack sh*t! Oh well, I hated having to know the OSI model and Im glad I dont have to ever really know it 🙂
 


<< But tcp/ip was developed before OSI model. IT is what is used today. It is what should be the basis for further development instead of a model that does absolutely jack sh*t! Oh well, I hated having to know the OSI model and Im glad I dont have to ever really know it 🙂 >>

There are a few gaping holes in your logic here, but I'll only point out one: If you &quot;don't have to ever really know it,&quot; then how can you say it's inferior?

Partly for bart's edification, here is a link to an explanation of the DOD 4-layer model. Note the following quote: &quot;The core Internet protocols adhere to this model, although the OSI Seven Layer Model is justly preferred for new designs.&quot;

Here is a link to an explanation of the OSI 7-layer model. Note the following quotes: &quot;The OSI Basic Reference Model has enjoyed a far greater acceptance than the OSI protocols themselves...[OSI's] most significant contribution is the philosophy of networking represented by its layered model.&quot;

And, I figured freesoft.org wouldn't offend any dyed-in-the-wool open-source *nix-heads, such as yourself. 🙂

P.S. I wouldn't dream of flaming you about hurting2's system specs, either. 😉
 
I never (until today) knew how to remember the OSI layers...but if you're going to do &quot;real&quot; networking (more than just the TCP/IP layer) I've found it an important concept.

What I know about WANs is....Wide Area Network. 😉 Seriously though, this is where the &quot;big iron&quot; is on the network side of the house, and you have to know the model, and some other protocols which play here.

For LAN stuff, you can probably get by with really good TCP/IP knowledge. But where do switches and VLANs, multiple- interface firewalls, and local directors fit in? And for most large companies, SNA &amp; DLC?

BTW, I don't have an answer to the original question. I just did OTJ...listen to the real network guys. (Us server guys always answered with &quot;It's a network problem&quot; 😉 Of course the NOC-Monkeys' answer was &quot;It's a server problem&quot; 😛)

BTW, n0cmonkey seems to be a pretty reliable source--I keep bumping into him around this place. 🙂

--Woodie
 


<<

<< But tcp/ip was developed before OSI model. IT is what is used today. It is what should be the basis for further development instead of a model that does absolutely jack sh*t! Oh well, I hated having to know the OSI model and Im glad I dont have to ever really know it 🙂 >>

There are a few gaping holes in your logic here, but I'll only point out one: If you &quot;don't have to ever really know it,&quot; then how can you say it's inferior?

Partly for bart's edification, here is a link to an explanation of the DOD 4-layer model. Note the following quote: &quot;The core Internet protocols adhere to this model, although the OSI Seven Layer Model is justly preferred for new designs.&quot;

Here is a link to an explanation of the OSI 7-layer model. Note the following quotes: &quot;The OSI Basic Reference Model has enjoyed a far greater acceptance than the OSI protocols themselves...[OSI's] most significant contribution is the philosophy of networking represented by its layered model.&quot;

And, I figured freesoft.org wouldn't offend any dyed-in-the-wool open-source *nix-heads, such as yourself. 🙂

P.S. I wouldn't dream of flaming you about hurting2's system specs, either. 😉 >>



But the tcp/ip model does not fit the osi model. tcp/ip is the most widely used standard. Why not develop from that instead of basically reimplementing something to fit around the osi model?

And like the description says, it was free 😉
 


<< I never (until today) knew how to remember the OSI layers...but if you're going to do &quot;real&quot; networking (more than just the TCP/IP layer) I've found it an important concept.

What I know about WANs is....Wide Area Network. 😉 Seriously though, this is where the &quot;big iron&quot; is on the network side of the house, and you have to know the model, and some other protocols which play here.

For LAN stuff, you can probably get by with really good TCP/IP knowledge. But where do switches and VLANs, multiple- interface firewalls, and local directors fit in? And for most large companies, SNA &amp; DLC?

BTW, I don't have an answer to the original question. I just did OTJ...listen to the real network guys. (Us server guys always answered with &quot;It's a network problem&quot; 😉 Of course the NOC-Monkeys' answer was &quot;It's a server problem&quot; 😛)

BTW, n0cmonkey seems to be a pretty reliable source--I keep bumping into him around this place. 🙂

--Woodie >>



And just because I have a lot of freetime doesnt mean Im always right 😉

But my point is, even WAN technology works on tcp/ip. Why compare tcp/ip to the osi model when the osi model is BARELY compatible with tcp/ip? For theories I Guess OSI model is worth something, but when I wanted to know about tcp/ip I learned too much about OSI and got frustrated. One of these days I have to actually read tcp/ip illustrated... Too many books, not enough time.
 


<< But the tcp/ip model does not fit the osi model >>



that's strange, it is one of the few protocols that adhere to OSI model perfectly but was developed by the DOD model. Anybody who works in networking HAS to know the OSI model like the back of their hand.
 


<<

<< But the tcp/ip model does not fit the osi model >>



that's strange, it is one of the few protocols that adhere to OSI model perfectly but was developed by the DOD model. Anybody who works in networking HAS to know the OSI model like the back of their hand. >>



Heh, everytime I have see the tcp/ip protocol compared to the OSI model it doesnt quite fit... Anyways, the OSI model would then be based on tcp/ip right? And I have NEVER seen a real world use of the OSI model, please enlighten me 🙂
 


<< I have NEVER seen a real world use of the OSI model, please enlighten me >>



let's take a simple one - FTP.

L1 - physical, pretty much a no brainer
L2 - datalink, same thing
L3 - network - IP header providing addressing and flags..fits perfectly
L4 - transport - TCP, flow control and signaling..nice fit
L5 - session - port numbers get negotiated here.
L6 - presentation - well is it a binary or ascii transfer? nice fit
L7 - app - contains FTP command set. application

alot of times 5&amp;6 get thrown into a single header, but an even better fit would be microsoft's netbios over IP. Session layer there is truly netbios...a session oriented protocol.

really not trying to argue, but the OSI model if of the utmost importance in the field.
 


<<

<< I have NEVER seen a real world use of the OSI model, please enlighten me >>



let's take a simple one - FTP.

L1 - physical, pretty much a no brainer
L2 - datalink, same thing
L3 - network - IP header providing addressing and flags..fits perfectly
L4 - transport - TCP, flow control and signaling..nice fit
L5 - session - port numbers get negotiated here.
L6 - presentation - well is it a binary or ascii transfer? nice fit
L7 - app - contains FTP command set. application

alot of times 5&amp;6 get thrown into a single header, but an even better fit would be microsoft's netbios over IP. Session layer there is truly netbios...a session oriented protocol.

really not trying to argue, but the OSI model if of the utmost importance in the field. >>



I am seriously curious. I dont want this to seem like a flame fest, just wanna know 🙂

That example made sense. Thank you. I guess the OSI model was modeled after tcp/ip a little bit then? Thanks again.
 
Gotta side with Spidey here. If you really want to know networking, you have to go beyond the 3-4 layers of OSI that TCP/IP uses.

In most LAN work, you only have to deal with the TCP/IP layers, but on occasion you will need to know the other layers. Routers, broadcasts, networked printers, discovery, etc. all deal with the protocol layers, but also with some lower levels.

--Woodie
 
believe you me I hated to hear about OSI. i was thinkin &quot;jeez, if I have to hear this one more time&quot;. But I was saying that because I never really got it.

Once you see the frames on a sniffer or start looking at conversasions a huge lightbuld will go off in you head. Then you UNDERSTAND what is happening on that little wire.

but really, the cisco web site has TONS of information. Also if you want to get deep buddha bart, maybe read a RFC or two.
 
All I can say is...RFCs! They are a wealth of information (if you can get through them) and they go all the way back to the 60's. Everything you'd ever want to know about TCP/IP (and other subjects -- many other subjects) is in the RFCs.
 


<< believe you me I hated to hear about OSI. i was thinkin &quot;jeez, if I have to hear this one more time&quot;. But I was saying that because I never really got it.

Once you see the frames on a sniffer or start looking at conversasions a huge lightbuld will go off in you head. Then you UNDERSTAND what is happening on that little wire.

but really, the cisco web site has TONS of information. Also if you want to get deep buddha bart, maybe read a RFC or two. >>



mmmm ethereal output.... One of these days Im just going to start speaking in hex 😛
 


<< Well mabey that biting off a shade more than I can chew, but networking is one of my weakest area's of computer-dom, and It honestly seems interesting enough that I could pursue it.
So where do I start? I've already done most of the really simple stuff, setting up a small LAN in my parents house, sharing printers, managing a small file server at work, IPMasq'ing my desktop behind my linux box, etc. But its still mostly grabastic guessing and hoping most of the solutions are built in for me or easily copied.

Is there an anandtech-like equivilant in the world of networking? A place where I could read a few tutorials, and a few articles a week untill eventually things just started making sense (thats what I did here 2 years ago).

thanks for any info/help.

bart >>



Just saw these mentioned on another forum, maybe that was you 😉

http://www.protocols.com/
http://www.dtool.com/
http://www.techfest.com/networking/prot.htm
http://www.ietf.org/rfc.html
http://www.beginners.co.uk/
 
Hey, thanks for all the info guys, I'll start combing the sites.

Here's a quick question. Can anyone explain what ATM is? I know its used for serious connections, but sometimes i hear things like &quot;atm over fiber&quot; so is it not medium dependant? Is it part of ethernet, or a different technology?

Oh, and read RFC's? I was thinking a shade more along the lines of 'networking for dummies'. Just a shade 😉

bart
 
LOL, Networking For Dummies won't teach you anything. Get a copy of TCP/IP Illustrated from bookpool.com -- it's a few years old, but it's the most comprehensive guide/manual on TCP/IP.
 


<< LOL, Networking For Dummies won't teach you anything. Get a copy of TCP/IP Illustrated from bookpool.com -- it's a few years old, but it's the most comprehensive guide/manual on TCP/IP. >>



Also good if you have trouble sleeping, you can either get a buddy to beat you over the head or just open to page 1 😉
 
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