Where is the personal responsibilty ("rape thread" sequel)

[jaydee]

I was reading through the "is this rape" thread (got 1/2 through the 2nd page).

So lemme get this straight: A girl ("Susan", lets say) goes to a party and willingly gets smashed with both alcohol and illeagal drugs around a bunch of guys. The dialogue (and all important corresponding consent issue) between her and an also drunk guy ("Jeremy") is unclear to us as a third-party. They do the horizontal tango, the girl doesn't recall the event, nor seem to care after to being told what happend by another person (I dunno, "Joe") that didn't even witness the event. Now Joe is scum for not calling the police, even though Susan doesn't care one bit.


I guess my question is: If a girl has no respect for her own body, her own image, goes out and willingly puts herself in a situation where she knows there is a good chance her sexuality can be compromised, and then doesn't seem to care about what happened after the incident, why should someone who didn't even witness the event, nor know all the facts, get involved?


Let's say I have a car that has a known safety defect and has been recalled. Instead of taking the car back, I think I'll go get drunk, end up smashing my car head on into a telephone pole (where the defect is exploited and I get hurt more than I would under normal circumstances), the accident is not reported, and someone who saw the accident is wavering whether or not to sue the car company for building an unsafe vehicle on behalf of the me, the driver, who more-less doesn't seem to care either way (probably realizing my own stupidy when I sober up).

What's the difference here?


That thread was locked for many reasons, one of them being the lack of maturity some of the members here possess.

AnandTech Moderator

 

[joohang]

Originally posted by: jaydee
I was reading through the "is this rape" thread (got 1/2 through the 2nd page).

So lemme get this straight: A girl ("Susan", lets say) goes to a party and willingly gets smashed with both alcohol and illeagal drugs around a bunch of guys. The dialogue (and all important corresponding consent issue) between her and an also drunk guy ("Jeremy") is unclear to us as a third-party. They do the horizontal tango, the girl doesn't recall the event, nor seem to care after to being told what happend by another person (I dunno, "Joe") that didn't even witness the event. Now Joe is scum for not calling the police, even though Susan doesn't care one bit.


I guess my question is: If a girl has no respect for her own body, her own image, goes out and willingly puts herself in a situation where she knows there is a good chance her sexuality can be compromised, and then doesn't seem to care about what happened after the incident, why should someone who didn't even witness the event, nor know all the facts, get involved?


Let's say I have a car that has a known safety defect and has been recalled. Instead of taking the car back, I think I'll go get drunk, end up smashing my car head on into a telephone pole (where the defect is exploited and I get hurt more than I would under normal circumstances), the accident is not reported, and someone who saw the accident is wavering whether or not to sue the car company for building an unsafe vehicle on behalf of the me, the driver, who more-less doesn't seem to care either way (probably realizing my own stupidy when I sober up).

What's the difference here?

I don't understand how the car scenario is analogous to the rape situation.

 

[jaydee]

Well, the car company represents the drunk guy, the girl representing the driver, and the witness, as the guy who originally posted the question.

 

[Spac3d]

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: jaydee
I was reading through the "is this rape" thread (got 1/2 through the 2nd page).

So lemme get this straight: A girl ("Susan", lets say) goes to a party and willingly gets smashed with both alcohol and illeagal drugs around a bunch of guys. The dialogue (and all important corresponding consent issue) between her and an also drunk guy ("Jeremy") is unclear to us as a third-party. They do the horizontal tango, the girl doesn't recall the event, nor seem to care after to being told what happend by another person (I dunno, "Joe") that didn't even witness the event. Now Joe is scum for not calling the police, even though Susan doesn't care one bit.


I guess my question is: If a girl has no respect for her own body, her own image, goes out and willingly puts herself in a situation where she knows there is a good chance her sexuality can be compromised, and then doesn't seem to care about what happened after the incident, why should someone who didn't even witness the event, nor know all the facts, get involved?


Let's say I have a car that has a known safety defect and has been recalled. Instead of taking the car back, I think I'll go get drunk, end up smashing my car head on into a telephone pole (where the defect is exploited and I get hurt more than I would under normal circumstances), the accident is not reported, and someone who saw the accident is wavering whether or not to sue the car company for building an unsafe vehicle on behalf of the me, the driver, who more-less doesn't seem to care either way (probably realizing my own stupidy when I sober up).

What's the difference here?

I don't understand how the car scenario is analogous to the rape situation.

 

[notfred]

I'll make my own analogous car situation (like I already did in the other thread).

Guy parks his new M5 in the middle of the ghetto. Rolls down the windows, leaves the keys in it, and puts a sign saying "steal me" in the window.

You and the owner both see someone get in the BMW and drive it away. Owner says, "eh, I don't really care".

Are you scum if you don't report it? No, it's the owner's job. He knows full well what happened, and it was his car anyway, so it's his problem. If he decides to cal lthe police and prosecute, then you should show up to testify that you saw the guy steal it. If he decides he doesn't care, you have absolutely no obligation to call the police. That's my opinion.

 

[CTho9305]

Easy. She raped Jeremy and Joe should charge her 😉. Or do you want to explain how two drunks screwing means one was raped and the other did the raping, and the male always did the raping?

 

[Miramonti]

If a girl has no respect for her own body, her own image, goes out and willingly puts herself in a situation where she knows there is a good chance her sexuality can be compromised, and then doesn't seem to care about what happened after the incident, why should someone who didn't even witness the event, nor know all the facts, get involved?

How do you say she had no respect for her body? Because she got stoned? Stoned people are ok to rape?
How can you conclude theres a good chance her sexuality can be compromised? Getting stoned is saying "rape me!" and she should be responsible for that?
How can you say she didn't care about what happened after the incident...OK this is fact, she didn't. 😉 This is all that's relevant, whether she consented or not - and she did, but that wasn't learned til later. Its not ethical/moral to let a felony go if you think it may have taken place.

 

[jaydee]

Originally posted by: CTho9305
Easy. She raped Jeremy and Joe should charge her 😉. Or do you want to explain how two drunks screwing means one was raped and the other did the raping, and the male always did the raping?

Ah Ha!

 

[Tripleshot]

This crap thread should be locked because if you have an issue with the rape thread, post it there!:|

 

[MaxDSP]

Originally posted by: Tripleshot
This crap thread should be locked because if you have an issue with the rape thread, post it there!:|

what difference does it make?

 

[Geekbabe]

If the best some idiot can do is to take advantage of some chic who's so wasted out of her skull I'd say he's got bigger problems than arguing the semantics of the situation.

 

[OutHouse]

oh boy, here we go again.

 

[AznMaverick]

How do you say she had no respect for her body? Because she got stoned? Stoned people are ok to rape?

well if she gets stoned and drunk, i'd say YES

 

[jaydee]

Originally posted by: jjsole

If a girl has no respect for her own body, her own image, goes out and willingly puts herself in a situation where she knows there is a good chance her sexuality can be compromised, and then doesn't seem to care about what happened after the incident, why should someone who didn't even witness the event, nor know all the facts, get involved?

How do you say she had no respect for her body? Because she got stoned? Stoned people are ok to rape?
How can you conclude theres a good chance her sexuality can be compromised? Getting stoned is saying "rape me!" and she should be responsible for that?

Going to a party with a lot of guys, including at least one that you know is attracted to you. Drink and drug up until the point you can't make a conscience decision. I can say pretty safely, that she has no respect for image or body at this point.

I'm not excusing the guy at all for what he did. It's just at some point, a girl with minimal intelligence should have enough common sense to accept certain responsibilties for herself.

 

[Miramonti]

Originally posted by: jaydee

Originally posted by: jjsole

If a girl has no respect for her own body, her own image, goes out and willingly puts herself in a situation where she knows there is a good chance her sexuality can be compromised, and then doesn't seem to care about what happened after the incident, why should someone who didn't even witness the event, nor know all the facts, get involved?

How do you say she had no respect for her body? Because she got stoned? Stoned people are ok to rape? How can you conclude theres a good chance her sexuality can be compromised? Getting stoned is saying "rape me!" and she should be responsible for that?

Going to a party with a lot of guys, including at least one that you know is attracted to you. Drink and drug up until the point you can't make a conscience decision. I can say pretty safely, that she has no respect for image or body at this point. I'm not excusing the guy at all for what he did. It's just at some point, a girl with minimal intelligence should have enough common sense to accept certain responsibilties for herself.

I never said it was the safest or the wisest thing to do in the world, but it happens and when people start getting stoned they often keep going. Being vulnerable tho doesn't legitimize rape. Heck she could have walked into the party naked and it would still be illegal to rape her.

 

[jaydee]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
If the best some idiot can do is to take advantage of some chic who's so wasted out of her skull I'd say he's got bigger problems than arguing the semantics of the situation.

Clearly the idiot did wrong.

But, my point is, that the girl did absolutly nothing to prevent the situation from occurring, rather she encouraged it by putting herself in that situation.

Being vulnerable tho doesn't legitimize rape. Heck she could have walked into the party naked and it would still be illegal to rape her.

I'm not 'legitmizing', nor justifying the guy's action.

 

Originally posted by: jaydee

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
If the best some idiot can do is to take advantage of some chic who's so wasted out of her skull I'd say he's got bigger problems than arguing the semantics of the situation.

Clearly the idiot did wrong.

But, my point is, that the girl did absolutly nothing to prevent the situation from occurring, rather she encouraged it by putting herself in that situation.

so girls are not allowod to get wasted then?

 

[AznMaverick]

Originally posted by: jaydee

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
If the best some idiot can do is to take advantage of some chic who's so wasted out of her skull I'd say he's got bigger problems than arguing the semantics of the situation.

Clearly the idiot did wrong.

But, my point is, that the girl did absolutly nothing to prevent the situation from occurring, rather she encouraged it by putting herself in that situation.

agree, sometimes i feel the girl deserves it. she should be responsible for her own actions and end results. but what the dood did is wrong, very wrong. hopefully the girl will learn, and others will learn from it too.

 

Originally posted by: AznMaverick

Originally posted by: jaydee

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
If the best some idiot can do is to take advantage of some chic who's so wasted out of her skull I'd say he's got bigger problems than arguing the semantics of the situation.

Clearly the idiot did wrong.

But, my point is, that the girl did absolutly nothing to prevent the situation from occurring, rather she encouraged it by putting herself in that situation.

agree, sometimes i feel the girl deserves it. she should be responsible for her own actions and end results. but what the dood did is wrong, very wrong. hopefully the girl will learn, and others will learn from it too.

so if i went around and raped say...your sister, it would be ok as long as she was drunk?

 

[Miramonti]

Originally posted by: jaydee

Originally posted by: Geekbabe If the best some idiot can do is to take advantage of some chic who's so wasted out of her skull I'd say he's got bigger problems than arguing the semantics of the situation.

Clearly the idiot did wrong. But, my point is, that the girl did absolutly nothing to prevent the situation from occurring, rather she encouraged it by putting herself in that situation.

Being vulnerable tho doesn't legitimize rape. Heck she could have walked into the party naked and it would still be illegal to rape her.

I'm not 'legitmizing', nor justifying the guy's action.

If a guy goes to the party, drinks, smokes pot, takes e, would he somewhat responsible for getting raped by a gay guy?

 

[AznMaverick]

edit: spelling

yup, she deserved it. our parents constantly advise us and warn us of the consequences. if she failed to listen and just had to find out the hard way, then that's the only way she'll learn.

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: jaydee

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
If the best some idiot can do is to take advantage of some chic who's so wasted out of her skull I'd say he's got bigger problems than arguing the semantics of the situation.

Clearly the idiot did wrong.

But, my point is, that the girl did absolutly nothing to prevent the situation from occurring, rather she encouraged it by putting herself in that situation.

Being vulnerable tho doesn't legitimize rape. Heck she could have walked into the party naked and it would still be illegal to rape her.

I'm not 'legitmizing', nor justifying the guy's action.

I'd say a guy who goes after some wasted chic who's gonna give him about as much responsiveness as a blow up doll has a bigger problem than the gal getting wasted at the wrong party.

Don't know about the rest of you folks but I prefer having sex with somebody who's sober enough to remember my name and enjoy the experience.

 

[AznMaverick]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: jaydee

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
If the best some idiot can do is to take advantage of some chic who's so wasted out of her skull I'd say he's got bigger problems than arguing the semantics of the situation.

Clearly the idiot did wrong.

But, my point is, that the girl did absolutly nothing to prevent the situation from occurring, rather she encouraged it by putting herself in that situation.

Being vulnerable tho doesn't legitimize rape. Heck she could have walked into the party naked and it would still be illegal to rape her.

I'm not 'legitmizing', nor justifying the guy's action.

I'd say a guy who goes after some wasted chic who's gonna give him about as much responsiveness as a blow up doll has a bigger problem than the gal getting wasted at the wrong party.

Don't know about the rest of you folks but I prefer having sex with somebody who's sober enough to remember my name and enjoy the experience.

w3rd to that!

 

[CTho9305]

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: jaydee

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
If the best some idiot can do is to take advantage of some chic who's so wasted out of her skull I'd say he's got bigger problems than arguing the semantics of the situation.

Clearly the idiot did wrong.

But, my point is, that the girl did absolutly nothing to prevent the situation from occurring, rather she encouraged it by putting herself in that situation.

so girls are not allowod to get wasted then?

No, but before they get wasted/plastered/whatever they should think, "if I do this am I going to go to far?". It is simple. Take some responsibility for your own damn actions.

 

[jaydee]

Ok, since it appears many ATOT participants in this thread can't read plain text, I shall put it in CAPITAL BOLD LETTERS FOR YOU

THIS IS NOT A DEBATE REGARDING WHETHER OR NOT THE GUY DID SOMETHING WRONG.

My question is: If a girl has no respect for her own body, her own image, goes out and willingly puts herself in a situation where she knows there is a good chance her sexuality can be compromised, and then doesn't seem to care about what happened after the incident, why should someone who didn't even witness the event, nor know all the facts, get involved?

If a guy goes to the party, drinks, smokes pot, takes e, would he somewhat responsible for getting raped by a gay guy?

If he goes to this party after the gay guy outright asks him out, and shortly thereafter, knowingly goes to a party where he is and gets drunk, and drugged (both illegal) beyond the point where he can make a rational decision, then yes, I would say the guy is "somewhat responsible".