Where ATi went wrong.

[EightySix Four]

After reading the interview with the ATi employee, and having followed graphics cards for many years, I believe I see why ATi has been the slower performing recently. This is not to start a flamewar, I'm just curious on everyone else's opinions on the matter.

ATi's recent products have been lesser on things like the "pipelines" because they believe that's not the way of the future. All their products have been focusing on programmability and the ability to run future technologies. The problem with this point of view is gamers want to play the current released games at the highest possible framerate, and that's where their money is going. By the time ATi's "future" arrives, the hardware will be outdated anyways. Yes the R5** architecture is nice, but it's not what the current developers use. They can't use their push of better hardware like they did in the R300 days, because their hardware's not blatantly superior anymore. nVidia's performance is excellent in today's games and benchmarks, which is what we'll look at. I think ATi is looking to far ahead and needs to focus on today.

Anyways, just my 2 cents because I'm an ATi fanboy and I was trying to find a reason for their dismal performance recently. I'm curious to anyone else's POV on the matter?

 

[Acanthus]

The only mistake ATI has made recently is getting product on the shelf.

Their parts are very competitive with nvidia. Although the scales may tip either way with R580/G71.

 

[RussianSensation]

It's hard to imagine one company winning at all price levels, or the other would not exist for long.

ATI isn't so slow. 9800Pro cards > FX, X800XL was fairly competitive with 6800GT, X850xt > 6800Ultra, X1800XT > 7800GTX 256mb. Of course Nvidia also has nice options like 6600GT, 7800GT, etc.

ATI is like Intel - using raw power and Nvidia is efficient like AMD with more pipes and lower clock speeds but very efficient output per cycle. Nvidia > ATI with noaa/noAF. Yet again ATI has far more efficient AA algorithms. You have to be more specific in your post where you think ATI made mistakes.

 

[sisq0kidd]

1. Manufacture problems.

2. Naming scheme.

Actually, the only thing I see wrong with ATI right now is their naming scheme. Yuck. Well, Nvidia too for that matter, but not as bad.

Watch my brilliance folks...

High End:
Ati Radeon 4 Bestest Eh
Nvidia Geforce 7 Bestest

Mid End:
Ati Radeon 4 Good Eh
Nvidia Geforce 7 Good

Mid Low End:
Ati Radeon 4 It'll Do Eh
Nvidia Geforce 7 It'll Do

Low End:
Ati Radeon 4 Meh Eh
Nvidia Geforce 7 Meh

And that's how they should be named!

Edit: Spelling

 

[EightySix Four]

I am talking general recent products, they're just so... underwhelming... nVidia's solutions have been cheaper or faster overall.

 

[Soccerman06]

Originally posted by: crazySOB297
I am talking general recent products, they're just so... underwhelming... nVidia's solutions have been cheaper or faster overall.

You meen how the X850XT is cheaper and faster than 6800U in most games, or how the 7800GTX 512mb is so widely available (sarcasm)? I will give props to the 6600GT, that was done right, and the 7800GT is a very good price/performance, but this gen still isnt over.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: crazySOB297
I am talking general recent products, they're just so... underwhelming... nVidia's solutions have been cheaper or faster overall.

The X1800XT is arguably just as fast if not faster than the GTX.

However i strongly agree that their midrange and low end have been underwhelming this time around.

 

[EightySix Four]

Look around the forums at sigs, there's more nVidia cards than ATi, that means people are choosing the nVidia for a reason, this was my attempt at justification.

 

[TSS]

well if their faster their more expensive if their slower their cheaper. so ati's beein cheaper/faster aswell lately. it just seems bad because of the R520 disaster which delayed everything. been it right on time, you and alot of others wouldn't thought so.

as far as im concirned, performance wise, ati won with the 1800xt vs 7800 gtx. if you buy those cards, are you going to run them with no AA? hell no, and thats when ati takes the crown. their greatest triumph is that memory controller. like that 30% gain in openGL games, i dont know how they did it but its part of that MC.

still it does feel like they have failed somehow. i'd guess that product availability is a bit more improtant then raw performance (as demonstrated with the GTX 512).

but in the end its all relative. you might ask yourself why Nvidia has failed with the same thing. the GT/GTX hard launch was a brilliant strategy, and certainly caught everybody off guard. but wheres the 7600? wheres the 7300? the latter has only just been released, in asia. so a paper launch for everybody in europe/USA. and why cant they outperform a 16 pipe card with a 24 pipe card, when AA's on? and if ATI can manage that quality AF at almost no performance loss, why cant nvidia? also their IQ lately has been inferior to ATI's.

in the end, both the ATI en NVidia fanboys all have their ammunition for a never ending war of competition. so it really doesnt matter which way you look at it, because their have always been and will always be multiple sides to a story.

edit: thats availability for ya. because nvidia has been pumping out cards longer they have been cheaper for quite some time, not to mention the 7800GT is in the exact price/performance sweetspot. in the next few months there should be a few people with the 1900 card popping up

 

[Cookie Monster]

If NV can win the mid range market with the upcoming 7600GT it will possibly let NV win this time just like the 6600GT last gen.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: crazySOB297
Look around the forums at sigs, there's more nVidia cards than ATi, that means people are choosing the nVidia for a reason, this was my attempt at justification.

AnandTech System Rigs Stats

Video Card Stats
3Dfx: 347
ATI: 6045
Nvidia: 7749

ati was late with r520/x1800 and the balance shifted to nVidia's newer 7800 series . . . with x1900/r580, the balance will shift somewhat back.

and i believe 3 years ago ATI [r300] was ahead . . . and two years before that nVidia overwhelmed.

ati didn't go wrong in any way shape or form technologically . . . they are just 'late' and almost caught up even with nVidia's huge headstart with SLI.

 

[Overgloc]

I like playing my game with the max setting and don't really care for 100+ FPS as long as it's above 50+. Only thing ATI did wrong is not putting product on the shelve on the 1800 series.

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: crazySOB297
Look around the forums at sigs, there's more nVidia cards than ATi, that means people are choosing the nVidia for a reason, this was my attempt at justification.

The problem is your looking at a very limited segment. The mass majority of computer/VC sales are mid to low range. Not to mention the Laptop market is huge these days and ATI has been tops in that market for a long time. It's nice that they put so much effort in their high end cards, but that's more for bragging rights to say they are the best. It's good marketing.

The real money is never in having the ultra fastest card. What's sad is the tops from ATI and nVidia are basically the same. The few FPS you gain or lose from either card is not even relevant. You can't even see those with the human eye. Most people aren't playing on 2405's with 100x AA at 30238X29348 resolution. So in the end the best thing to do is buy the best card for the money you can afford that will play the games you like.

 

[Cooler]

I have been with ATI over many years they have replaced their cards when they broke on me so I am sticking with them. ATI is not wrong with not increasing pipe line for this gen because next gen will be unified were there are no pipes to speak of . I see the R580 as a taste of what is to come as it seems to be 1/2 way between unified and none unified cards. Which mean when games are started to be coded for a unified arc it might give ati?s old gen an edge off 7800.

 

[SolMiester]

Wow, almost too tempting to troll that thread then!!! Haha....LOL. Okay, I'm alright now...<breathe in, breathe out...> <sigh>

 

[xMax]

Seesaw...Nvidia with a slight edge at the moment.

Why? I have no idea.

But this is based on high end gaming cards only.

I dont know about the rest.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: crazySOB297
Look around the forums at sigs, there's more nVidia cards than ATi, that means people are choosing the nVidia for a reason, this was my attempt at justification.

that reason is that ati couldn't figure out how to fix their product for 4 or 5 months, and even when they did the x1800xl isn't a very good competitor to the 7800GT. if it were priced lower than the 7800GT then that would be an option, but it isn't.

 

[EightySix Four]

Originally posted by: Cooler
I have been with ATI over many years they have replaced their cards when they broke on me so I am sticking with them. ATI is not wrong with not increasing pipe line for this gen because next gen will be unified were there are no pipes to speak of . I see the R580 as a taste of what is to come as it seems to be 1/2 way between unified and none unified cards. Which mean when games are started to be coded for a unified arc it might give ati?s old gen an edge off 7800.

That's the reason I've stayed with them, their customer service for me has been amazing.

I had an FIC 9700, known to be a shoddy card, had it flashed to 9700pro... told them this when it died, and they had me RMA it, got back a BBA 9700 pro... I told them that it was flashed and oc'd!

 

[v8envy]

ATI hardware is not slow in the least. It hasn't been comparatively slow since the TNT era. ATI's hardware has always been great. In the past, they had problems with drivers.

Now the problems are with pricing, inventory management, and logistics.

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

that reason is that ati couldn't figure out how to fix their product for 4 or 5 months, and even when they did the x1800xl isn't a very good competitor to the 7800GT. if it were priced lower than the 7800GT then that would be an option, but it isn't.

After having messed around with a pair of 7800GTs for a few months and than watching the performance of my brother's X1800XL, I'd have to disagree with you. That thing overclocks like crazy (668/702 up from 500/500 and still has a lot of steam left) on aircooling and the image quality was as good or better than my cards. My cards needed voltmods to go beyond 460/1200 and even then only hit 550/1300 (up from 450/1050) with H2O.

Recent benchmarks with updated drivers show the two cards being very close to one another. If you take overclocking into the equation than there's no competition.

 

[xMax]

seesaw!

 

[secretanchitman]

i think as long as ati gets their products quickly on shelves and fixes their drivers (i personally hate how there are so many tabs on the display properties - that might be all different now), then ati will remain very competitive.

yes, nvidia may have the best value for video cards now (IMO), but im sure ati wont screw up this time around. i'd like to see a fair fight, not someone with their products up first months ahead and shoving it in their opponents faces, or actually releasing a product that was competitive. yes, those were references to both companies screw ups - #1 - geforce 7800 series and X1800 series and #2 - geforce fx series and 9x00 series.

 

[Munky]

What went wrong last gen: horrible availability of high end card from both sides, but Nv had the 6800gt available that could be OC'd to ultra speeds, while Ati only had the slower 12 pipe x800pro. Had the x800xt been more available at the start, things would have turned out differently. Also, Nv dropped a bombshell on Ati with the 6600gt, and it was an uncontested midrange leader until the x800, x800gt and x800gto appeared like a year later.

What went wrong this gen: the 520 was delayed, while the 7800gtx and gt had hard launches with no competition for months. I dont see anything wrong with the gpu from a design standpoint, and we'll see soon enough in the g71/r580 battle which desing is better: brute force of the g71 or the shader performance of the r580.