Where are all the major OEM's PCs with AMD Ryzen processors?

[Mockingbird]

I don't know how much part sharing is going on but the mobo in theory could be used for other Inspiron's, Vostro's, and even Optiplex's.

You have to look at it from Dell's perspective, they can offer all the different choices, by basically having one basic platform to fall on. To include Ryzen right now would mean a single CPU list for maybe two different variations systems that would start with costing more than the introductory cost of a I3/I5/ and even i7, by not having graphics built in.

My guess is if you are going to go through all of the qualification steps you want a range that you can move the CPU's around so you can buy in higher bulk and not fear to much unsold stock. One of the XPS's with a Ryzen APU and all of a sudden you have AMD undercutting intel in pricing and then having the range all the way to near workstation in an R7. In Optiplex's not having an iGPU is going to suck and not much value difference choosing between an i5 and r5.

Where AMD really shines right now is in the 6+ cores market.

AMD's offerings literally demolished Intel's.

I do wonder how big the market is more PCs with 6+ cores.

 

[Shivansps]

Where AMD really shines right now is in the 6+ cores market.

AMD's offerings literally demolished Intel's.

I do wonder how big the market is more PCs with 6+ cores.

It does not work like that, how many Dell/HP/etc systems are out there with i7 and dGPUs? if you check Dell that are reserved for Alienwares.

Better yet, now many OEM systems were sold with a I7-6800K? it does not cost that much more than a 6700/7700K.

 

[dullard]

It does not work like that, how many Dell/HP/etc systems are out there with i7 and dGPUs? if you check Dell that are reserved for Alienwares.

Better yet, now many OEM systems were sold with a I7-6800K? it does not cost that much more than a 6700/7700K.

Heck, show me a single major OEM with an Intel 7500, 7600, or 7600K which is where Intel really has probably the best value. Not one single OEM. The high end consumer market gets a token 7700 sale here and there. Just about everyone who buys a PC wants the $400 PC where over 4 threads doesn't yet exist. And there are very few use cases for more than 4 threads (yet).

Ryzen is a great processor and a great value, but it isn't cheap. Thus there isn't much of a market for it (yet).

 

[Mockingbird]

It does not work like that, how many Dell/HP/etc systems are out there with i7 and dGPUs? if you check Dell that are reserved for Alienwares.

Better yet, now many OEM systems were sold with a I7-6800K? it does not cost that much more than a 6700/7700K.

http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/productdetails/xps-8920-se-desktop

 

[Mockingbird]

Heck, show me a single major OEM with an Intel 7500, 7600, or 7600K which is where Intel really has probably the best value. Not one single OEM. The high end consumer market gets a token 7700 sale here and there. Just about everyone who buys a PC wants the $400 PC where over 4 threads doesn't yet exist. And there are very few use cases for more than 4 threads (yet).

Ryzen is a great processor and a great value, but it isn't cheap. Thus there isn't much of a market for it (yet).

For the low end, AMD is still fine with Steamroller APUs or whatever.

For the midrange, AMD can bundle the 4-cores Ryzen 5 1400/1500X with some cheap graphic cards.

 

[cbn]

I don't know how much part sharing is going on but the mobo in theory could be used for other Inspiron's, Vostro's, and even Optiplex's.

You have to look at it from Dell's perspective, they can offer all the different choices, by basically having one basic platform to fall on. To include Ryzen right now would mean a single CPU list for maybe two different variations systems that would start with costing more than the introductory cost of a I3/I5/ and even i7, by not having graphics built in.

My guess is if you are going to go through all of the qualification steps you want a range that you can move the CPU's around so you can buy in higher bulk and not fear to much unsold stock. One of the XPS's with a Ryzen APU and all of a sudden you have AMD undercutting intel in pricing and then having the range all the way to near workstation in an R7. In Optiplex's not having an iGPU is going to suck and not much value difference choosing between an i5 and r5.

I am doubtful AMD will undercut Intel in pricing based on past trends I have seen----> https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...industry-source.2456970/page-14#post-37937094

P.S. If AMD wants to have PGA (ie, AM4) APUs, why not make them workstation only (ie, a FirePro model like this past model) and focus the rest of the APU processor dies into BGA (ie, mobile). No consumer PGA APUs (re: Consumer PGA (ie, AM4) Raven Ridge APU is bascially DOA because it is too strong in iGPU for regular consumer work and too weak for 1080p AAA gaming).

 

[cbn]

I even wonder if AMD could leave the large OEM* consumer desktops altogether and focus almost purely on BGA APUs for large OEM consumer and workstation mobile and AM4 for Large OEM Workstations, X390 for large OEM Workstations and X399 for large OEM Workstations.

*Lenovo, HP, Dell, Asus, Acer, etc.

 

[Topweasel]

I am doubtful AMD will undercut Intel in pricing based on past trends I have seen----> https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...industry-source.2456970/page-14#post-37937094

P.S. If AMD wants to have PGA (ie, AM4) APUs, why not make them workstation only (ie, a FirePro model like this past model) and focus the rest of the APU processor dies into BGA (ie, mobile). No consumer PGA APUs (re: Consumer PGA (ie, AM4) Raven Ridge APU is bascially DOA because it is too strong in iGPU for regular consumer work and too weak for 1080p mainstream gaming).

Undercut meaning priced lower than the lowest configuration available. A AM4 XPS would benefit from having a capable iGPU Radeon in the form of Raven Ridge. That system would be cheaper and probably faster than a baseline i5 setup and still sellable as a "XPS". Then they could add the R5/R7 as higher offerings that require a discrete card. But as it is for AMD to break into OEM offerings they either A.) Be significantly cheaper or B.) be fast enough and fill several markets with a single platform with more sideways action from the CPU.

 

[cbn]

Undercut meaning priced lower than the lowest configuration available. A AM4 XPS would benefit from having a capable iGPU Radeon in the form of Raven Ridge. That system would be cheaper and probably faster than a baseline i5 setup and still sellable as a "XPS".

Unfortunately Intel appears to give some really good volume pricing to large OEMs.

P.S. A Core i5 7400 consumer PC (with 300W PSU) can be had for as low as $399.99 on sale at various retailers:

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/the-pre-built-atx-tower-hot-deals-thread.2492098/#post-38842054

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883101530&ignorebbr=1

http://www.microcenter.com/product/474800/Aspire_ATC-780A-UR12_Desktop_Computer

 

[Topweasel]

Unfortunately Intel appears to give some really good volume pricing to large OEMs.

P.S. A Core i5 7400 consumer PC (with 300W PSU) can be had for as low as $399.99 on sale at various retailers:

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/the-pre-built-atx-tower-hot-deals-thread.2492098/#post-38842054

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883101530&ignorebbr=1

http://www.microcenter.com/product/474800/Aspire_ATC-780A-UR12_Desktop_Computer

My reference was completely on that XPS line someone said it could slide right into. Not about their ability to compete on the absolute low end of pricing.

 

[cbn]

My reference was completely on that XPS line someone said it could slide right into. Not about their ability to compete on the absolute low end of pricing.

That $399.99 Core i5 7400 PC can handle up to a GTX 1050 Ti though.....but even with a $70 AR RX460 it is going to be faster than any AM4 Raven Ridge APU desktop.

So while Dell could put an APU in a XPS desktop those are typically built for a higher TDP combination of CPU and GPU and are base priced higher because of that.

 

[Topweasel]

That $399.99 Core i5 7400 PC can handle up to a GTX 1050 Ti though. And even with a $70 or $80 RX460 that is going to be faster than any AM4 Raven Ridge APU desktop.

That wasn't my point. Someone pointed out an XPS solution that didn't have a base model without a GPU and said that Ryzen could fit in there. My point with a Raven Ridge he might have a point because that XPS series obviously cared about some form of advanced GPU, so a Raven Ridge might have actually fit in a gap where they could offer that system without a GPU and make a APU-8 Core Ryzen a selection there and the APU would allow them to undercut that specific i5 pricing.

 

[cbn]

That wasn't my point. Someone pointed out an XPS solution that didn't have a base model without a GPU and said that Ryzen could fit in there. My point with a Raven Ridge he might have a point because that XPS series obviously cared about some form of advanced GPU, so a Raven Ridge might have actually fit in a gap where they could offer that system without a GPU and make a APU-8 Core Ryzen a selection there and the APU would allow them to undercut that specific i5 pricing.

See my edit.

Basically XPS is overbuilt for an APU.

 

[AMDisTheBEST]

there arent much such systems because ryzen r7 are premium cpus. they are like the cost of an unlocked i7 at least with the top end model being $180 more expensive. in other words, they are in $1000+ pc mostly. OEMs nowadays mostly sell business desktops i believe, which doesnt justify the ridiculous cost. I think there will be more oems pc using the ryzen r5 and r3 tho.

 

[Topweasel]

That $399.99 Core i5 7400 PC can handle up to a GTX 1050 Ti though.....but even with a $70 AR RX460 it is going to be faster than any AM4 Raven Ridge APU desktop.

So while Dell could put an APU in a XPS desktop those are typically built for a higher TDP combination of CPU and GPU and are base priced higher because of that.

Which again dodges my point. The problem is on a top down on all the models of Dells that aren't workstation/servers, they have a lot of scalability in requirements. In the last 10 years there has been a shift that has allowed companies like Dell to offer a wide selection of equipment but the trick is to make as many solutions as possible with as little a number of parts as possible. Think of Dell as Taco Bell. The XPS can be offered with only dGPU's because any alotment of i5's and i7's can be used on any other product line so all they have to separate is the motherboard. Even then sometimes they just disable the functionality in the Mobo and actually still have the connectors.

If AMD is going to penetrate into Dell or any OEM they need to have a fully realized stack that allows them to build cheap machines and powerful machines with completely swappable components. My one thought was that if they really wanted to move AMD as an option into the XPS space that the Vega+Ryzen build of Raven Ridge in performance might allow Dell a little wiggle room on the configuration of that line of XPS that would allow them to include and AMD variation that could start at a lower cost than the current case that could then be optioned up with a dGPU to Ryzen 7. That could also then become the basis configuration for Optiplex's, Inspiron's, and maybe even Vostro's. Not having even the simplest iGPU on Ryzen while as an enthusiast is nice, it's going to kill them in the Business Desktop market. Once they have decent APU's out you at least have a full platform that can scale up even if on the upper end you still need a GPU.

The funny part is the key line to have at least a minimal GPU is the Ryzen line and it won't happen. If X399 or X390 or whatever it is based on Snowy Owl (pretty sure that's the name). It might have a gpu in it (which people assumed was for compute reasons). But if that is Ryzen Pro. It could work as "business" desktop/workstation platform. But the price will be too high to fit into the Optiplex workspace.

 

[cbn]

That $399.99 Core i5 7400 PC can handle up to a GTX 1050 Ti though.....but even with a $70 AR RX460 it is going to be faster than any AM4 Raven Ridge APU desktop.

So while Dell could put an APU in a XPS desktop those are typically built for a higher TDP combination of CPU and GPU and are base priced higher because of that.

Which again dodges my point. The problem is on a top down on all the models of Dells that aren't workstation/servers, they have a lot of scalability in requirements. In the last 10 years there has been a shift that has allowed companies like Dell to offer a wide selection of equipment but the trick is to make as many solutions as possible with as little a number of parts as possible. Think of Dell as Taco Bell. The XPS can be offered with only dGPU's because any alotment of i5's and i7's can be used on any other product line so all they have to separate is the motherboard. Even then sometimes they just disable the functionality in the Mobo and actually still have the connectors.

If AMD is going to penetrate into Dell or any OEM they need to have a fully realized stack that allows them to build cheap machines and powerful machines with completely swappable components. My one thought was that if they really wanted to move AMD as an option into the XPS space that the Vega+Ryzen build of Raven Ridge in performance might allow Dell a little wiggle room on the configuration of that line of XPS that would allow them to include and AMD variation that could start at a lower cost than the current case that could then be optioned up with a dGPU to Ryzen 7. That could also then become the basis configuration for Optiplex's, Inspiron's, and maybe even Vostro's. Not having even the simplest iGPU on Ryzen while as an enthusiast is nice, it's going to kill them in the Business Desktop market. Once they have decent APU's out you at least have a full platform that can scale up even if on the upper end you still need a GPU.

The funny part is the key line to have at least a minimal GPU is the Ryzen line and it won't happen. If X399 or X390 or whatever it is based on Snowy Owl (pretty sure that's the name). It might have a gpu in it (which people assumed was for compute reasons). But if that is Ryzen Pro. It could work as "business" desktop/workstation platform. But the price will be too high to fit into the Optiplex workspace.

What you describing is logical from the OEM standpoint, but does AMD really have enough APU dies to divide up between mobile (BGA) and desktop (PGA)?

See, that is the main problem IMO. (AMD is spreading themselves too thin by having their super small inventory divided up into so many small segments).

 

[Doom2pro]

Has anyone seen any major OEM's PCs with AMD Ryzen processors?

When I said major OEMs, I mean: Lenovo, HP, Dell, Asus, Acer and the like.

They are too fixated on Bristol Ridge.

 

[Ratman6161]

Heck, show me a single major OEM with an Intel 7500, 7600, or 7600K which is where Intel really has probably the best value. Not one single OEM. The high end consumer market gets a token 7700 sale here and there. Just about everyone who buys a PC wants the $400 PC where over 4 threads doesn't yet exist. And there are very few use cases for more than 4 threads (yet).

Ryzen is a great processor and a great value, but it isn't cheap. Thus there isn't much of a market for it (yet).

The OEM's make bucket loads of i5 systems though rarely with K models. We have about 175 Lenovo systems at my office. In my experience they are about the most common club's their are in the work place,

 

[cbn]

Here is an Acer Core i7 6700, 8GB DDR4 2133, 1TB HDD, RX 480 4GB, 500W PSU, Windows 10 Home Desktop reported for sale at $664.99 after promo code:

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/the-pre-built-atx-tower-hot-deals-thread.2492098/#post-38852703

(Unlike the $399.99 Acer Core i5 7400 I reported earlier in this thread) I'm not sure how often that one goes on sale for that price, but this may be another indication AMD should focus on Workstations (both AM4 and X390/X399) for OEMs rather than AMD CPU Consumer desktops for large OEMs.

 

[Topweasel]

Here is an Acer Core i7 6700, 8GB DDR4 2133, 1TB HDD, RX 480 4GB, 500W PSU, Windows 10 Home Desktop reported for sale at $664.99 after promo code:

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/the-pre-built-atx-tower-hot-deals-thread.2492098/#post-38852703

(Unlike the $399.99 Acer Core i5 7400 I reported earlier in this thread) I'm not sure how often that one goes on sale for that price, but this may be another indication AMD should focus on Workstations (both AM4 and X390/X399) for OEMs rather than AMD CPU Consumer desktops for large OEMs.

It's not just about a ASP although that matters. But AMD can have a stronger and more flexible lineup if they are producing more chips. We ask why R3 and the 1400/1500's are two CCX's, why we have to wait for Raven Ridge, why the Server and Workstation options aren't out yet. It's because AMD doesn't have enough market strength to be tapping out and testing process for more than a couple chip configurations at a time. To get that the need more outright production which means aiming more at consumer options. There is a reason why AMD went desktop first, something they hadn't done since the original Athlon, and that is because their other consumer products were doing so poorly that they needed to be able to push as many units as possible. They can't wait for qualifications and long OEM development processes for workstations and servers.

I feel as though ZenVer1 is all about re establishing a infrastructure. If the numbers for ZenVer1 is good AMD can probably get all of the 1CCX/GPU, 1CCX, 2 CCX, and other implementations spun out and in market in a shorter order. I think they also decided to maximise sales by staying in peoples heads as much as possible this year. Feb/March was R7, April was R5/5xx, May for Vega, June for X390, July R3, August Server, September Raven Ridge, and so on. People look at Ryzen and think Vega has a chance and if Vega is all that they start looking at the R7. If the X390 platform is sweet then maybe they can kick up Vega sales by having a true IF CF (maybe even Tri) Vega on X390 super gaming platform and so on. But the end point is the same they have to do slow and steady to maintain mindshare while reworking lost relationships and building up a product stack without putting the company on the line.

 

[cbn]

It's not just about a ASP although that matters. But AMD can have a stronger and more flexible lineup if they are producing more chips.

I agree, but remember AMD is a much much smaller company compared to Intel and because of that they will produce much less silicon per year compared to Intel.

So what is the best purpose for that limited amount of silicon? I think it is Servers and Workstations (most likely 2P ones).

This plus some kind of Super APU to better serve HPC as well as laptops like the 14" one seen below which looks too cramped with the Separate CPU and GPU (and separate system RAM and GDDR5 chips):

http://www.myfixguide.com/manual/razer-blade-2014-disassembly/

 

[cbn]

There is a reason why AMD went desktop first, something they hadn't done since the original Athlon, and that is because their other consumer products were doing so poorly that they needed to be able to push as many units as possible. They can't wait for qualifications and long OEM development processes for workstations and servers.

Perhaps once AMD gets solidly into Servers (including the Big APUs) and Workstations they can transition over to that as the first strategy again? In fact, that seems like the most likely path they will take.

Question is what happens to the desktops? I think they might go away except for parts that perhaps don't bin well enough for server?

 

[Topweasel]

I agree, but remember AMD is a much much smaller company compared to Intel and because of that they will produce much less silicon per year compared to Intel.

So what is the best purpose for that limited amount of silicon? I think it is Servers and Workstations (most likely 2P ones).

This plus some kind of Super APU to better serve HPC as well as laptops like the 14" one seen below which looks too cramped with the Separate CPU and GPU (and separate system RAM and GDDR5 chips):

http://www.myfixguide.com/manual/razer-blade-2014-disassembly/

Perhaps once AMD gets solidly into Servers (including the Big APUs) and Workstations they can transition over to that as the first strategy again? In fact, I can't see them not doing that.

AMD doesn't have a limit on Silicon, they have limit on cash flow that restrict how much stock they can hold and how many different versions of the chips they can produce. Like right now it's a safer if more expensive proposition to use 1 silicon for 3 different core configurations because if the 1400 didn't sell or the 1600 they could re-purpose accordingly. This is especially important once the process works itself out and they have a lot more chips that can be 8c 16MB L3. If this was Workstation/server. They could probably do much higher ASP's like maybe 1-1.5k for qualification chips. But they would have sold only 20k for several months until the OEM's had proper workstations/servers for it. People would know the proper performance of Ryzen before it hit the consumer market and a lot of air would be out of the AMD is Back balloon.

It is important that AMD gets steady cash now. Since their other consumer products weren't selling. Ryzen being a big shift in performance and flexibility gave them steady sales (pre sales were at a million just for R7), now they have a influx in good cash coming in. But remember that Zen is a server design first and foremost. So was K10 (Phenom) and so was BD. When Zenver2 is ready they should still be seeing steady income from Zenver1 and they can start Server/Workstation first, build up dies, maybe offering more silicon options earlier, before doing a Ryzen+ launch.

As for the laptop I am torn. R7 has a great power envelop for laptop workstations and desktop replacements. But it will need an addon card. Which I guess isn't the end of the world but it means going back to 6+ lbs laptops with 180w adapters. But there really isn't a middle ground. Next best option is Raven Ridge, a 4c8t would be a fantastic i7 competitor for 98% of the business or regular laptop world. Better graphics and possibly even better CPU performance since while Zen can't clock as high, it still has a better power management and can probably hit better clocks at the same wattage (though obviously adding a GPU changes this a bit). A Raven Ridge at like 2.9 or 3.0 would do wonders against mobile Kaby Lakes.

 

[cbn]

As for the laptop I am torn. R7 has a great power envelop for laptop workstations and desktop replacements. But it will need an addon card. Which I guess isn't the end of the world but it means going back to 6+ lbs laptops with 180w adapters.

Assuming R7 is binned at a lower TDP I think it could do pretty well. For example, that 2014 Razor Blade I posted in #46 is only 4.47 lbs. This despite having a 37W CPU and 100W dGPU.

https://www.engadget.com/2014/05/06/razer-blade-14-review-2014/

With that mentioned, I think the Zen CPU die would do even better as a MCM APU (replacing CPU and dGPU) with HBM2 (replacing system RAM and GDDR5).

Next best option is Raven Ridge, a 4c8t would be a fantastic i7 competitor for 98% of the business or regular laptop world. Better graphics and possibly even better CPU performance since while Zen can't clock as high, it still has a better power management and can probably hit better clocks at the same wattage (though obviously adding a GPU changes this a bit). A Raven Ridge at like 2.9 or 3.0 would do wonders against mobile Kaby Lakes.

I think Raven Ridge will be good for 35W laptop. My only concern is how fast the memory controller will be rated and if OEMs will use dual channel.

Crossing fingers for a DDR4 3200 controller.....and that OEMs would use DDR4 3200 rather than lower spec DDR4 2400 RAM.

 

[SpaceBeer]

No way OEMs will use fast RAM. In my opinion 2666 MHz is maximum we will see, 2400 MHz is more likely.

Now when RX 540/550 are released, they start selling home/office PCs with Ryzen 5