Where America needs to get back on its feet.

Cashmoney995

Senior member
Jul 12, 2002
695
0
0
Education.

8 hours a day, five days a week. Add homework, add friends and our education system does more parenting than parents do.

So what do we do?
We spend more money on computers and all this other junk to get kids to learn.

In india they dont use computers or calculators and it gets them farther than kids in the US.

The solution?

Boot camp.
First grade is boot camp.

You will reply yes sir and yes mam. You will not speak unless spoken to. You will respect your elders. You will suffer consequences for bad behavior. Thankyou is the correct reply to receiving a gift. Your Welcome is the correct reply to receiving a thankyou. When you bump into someone you will say sorry. You will not speak slang in school. You will not speak another language in school.

Kids who repeatedly mis behave, cause classroom disturbances that are deterimental to the learning of other kids will be sent to a real boot camp. Their parents are obviousely unable to control them and they need discipline in their lives.

We could enhance the education ten fold by teaching discipline. Class can be fun and learning can be fun. You can have fun in school. But you will respect your teachers.

The next thing? With students who are better mannered good teachers will come back to the education system. We can raise the salary for teachers allowing them to live a better life.

The actual curriculum can be advanced from touchy feely ignorant lessons, and be more direct.
We need redesign our education system to allow for learning and not allow for numbing teaching.
There are so many teachers out there which give retarded assignments to kids. They idiotically create assignments to find out whether kids read the book, such as placing sticky notes in the books where main ideas and relationships between characters are instead of actually spending time with the kids in a classroom discussion. If you can't tell that a student has read a book after a 15 minute discussion I'd be amazed at the ability of the students who did not read the book. I am not sure if the teachers actually get kick backs from 3M from getting their kids to waste so many sticky notes. One very good english teacher made everyone read their book reports or speaches in front of the class. First it promoted good public speaking habits, lowered stage fright and easily found people who had copied each other.

The next thing is that we should not allow for standardized testing in our schools. They make teachers teach for the test instead of teaching for the foundation of young lives. I believe I have spent more time on teachers telling me how to correctly bubble in an answer and how to decipher questions that are purposely meant to confuse the student into giving the wrong answer than actual teaching.


Our education system = our crime rate, our job oppurtunities, our economy and the fate of America.

We used to be a country that allowed innovation and bright minds to grow and do great things. Now all we do is hopelessly stuff piles of worthless homework on them and they have no time for self exploration. I can honestly said that I have learned more by my self than from school. More homework and more tests has never been a good solution to the problem of kids not understanding math. A teacher should be able to solve hundreds of problems in front of kids in order to teach them the correct way to solve a math problem.

There are many kids who are able to grasp it with only one example being shown. But more kids need repetition to understand concepts.

Who else thinks our education system needs to be radically re-designed?
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
14
81
I have to agree with that. The school system in my community has been rapidly going downhill the last 20 years.


Sysadmin
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
14
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Isn't that called Catholic School?


Most people I knew that came from the catholic shools were idiots. I believe we need more discipline in the shool system.

Sysadmin
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: Cashmoney995
In india they dont use computers or calculators and it gets them farther than kids in the US.

The problem with that comparison is that probably not everyone in India goes to school. If you're only going to be taking the elite from a country, then only take the elite from the US.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,653
4,168
126
Brute force will only get you so far. Students who despise the educational system even more than they do now will not learn as much.

Our biggest problem is apathy. Students don't want to do work. Their parents and their schools let them. One of the factors letting them be lazy is easy to change (schools) - the other is near impossible (parents).

My wife is a substitute high school teacher. There is a huge difference between high schools. Some let the kids get away with murder (don't need to do any homework or tests to pass) - and the kids are the least likely to go to college of any school in the state. Other schools she teaches at require homework or there are significant consequences. Guess what, those schools gets some of the highest college graduation rates of any school in the state.
 

Cashmoney995

Senior member
Jul 12, 2002
695
0
0
I look back to my elementary, my middle school and my high school years and realize that more discipline is needed in elementary to allow for a much better education. We spend so much time rehashing stuff that should already be understood by the time we get out of elementary school. With the increase of immigrants who won't speak english, and cause disruptions in class. With the increase of school violence. With the decrease in well educated teachers coming into the classroom and with the dropping IQ level of a high school graduate. When 1/4 of all kids in High School will drop out. Don't you think something has to be done?
 

Titan

Golden Member
Oct 15, 1999
1,819
0
0
i don't think its our schools that need to be radically redesigned, it's our society (and i know that's a cliche'). I'm not saying it can happen, but this place is getting quite messed up. I just don't understand this country's values anymore, or if they even exist.

But from my stand point the world is better if your a kid running around screaming and happy and raising hell. People who lie to themselves and force themselves like robots to commute to some desk where they push buttons all day are the ones in trouble. What most people call normal, I call insanity, but I guess i'm just not most people, or at least I don't want to be.
 

notfred

Lifer
Feb 12, 2001
38,241
4
0
The first paragraph is a bunch of crap. There are a LOT of teachers that don't mind being called by thier first name. This doesn't hurt thier relationship with thier students. The words "sir" and "ma'am" are only significant because old fogeys think they make people sound like they had a proper upbringing. If the teachers don't care, why should anyone else?

What is "another language" in school? Spanish? Is this one of those "you come to my country, you speak my language!" conservative rants? Should we stop teaching foreign languages in schools?

WTF is that crap about sticky notes?

"The actual curriculum can be advanced to touchy feely ignorance"
What the hell is "advanced to touchy feely ignorance"?

Yes, our school systems suck, but so does your plan.
 
Dec 27, 2001
11,272
1
0
Sure. If parents are going to put the responsibility on the schools, then give the schools the power they need to do the job right.
 

Cashmoney995

Senior member
Jul 12, 2002
695
0
0
I don't think anyone is born stupid. I think they are raised into stupidity. I'm suprised when I go into a history class and when talking about World War Two they don't mention D-Day or even show us a documentary on the war. When I go into English Class and there are people in the class who don't know and can not use a verb correctly. When kids in a math class have a hard time understanding that x is a variable. When I'm in any class and they think that giving us tons of word scrambles and word searches will help us learn.

Each level of schooling has to lay a solid foundation of basics in order for the next one to be successful in teaching more complex things.
 

Platypus

Lifer
Apr 26, 2001
31,046
321
136
The problem is not with the students it's more like school systems are becoming so restricted and conservative and they only pay the teachers dirt for money. The ROOT of the problem is that they don't pay teachers so there are no good ones and no hope for change in the future. You are motivated to learn if you have a good teacher a LOT more than you are with someone who cares less about the class than you do and is taking home 30,000 a year and that's if you're lucky. It's frightening that men get paid to throw a ball into a hoop for our amusement in the million dollar range and yet teachers, those responsible for our children's futures, get absolutely jack. (no i'm not a communist and i'm not suggesting we take pay away from sports entertainers).
 
Dec 27, 2001
11,272
1
0
Originally posted by: Cashmoney995
I don't think anyone is born stupid. I think they are raised into stupidity. I'm suprised when I go into a history class and when talking about World War Two they don't mention D-Day or even show us a documentary on the war. When I go into English Class and there are people in the class who don't know and can not use a verb correctly. When kids in a math class have a hard time understanding that x is a variable. When I'm in any class and they think that giving us tons of word scrambles and word searches will help us learn.

Each level of schooling has to lay a solid foundation of basics in order for the next one to be successful in teaching more complex things.

I went to private school for middle school and I learned more English there, where they can whip your butt if you misbehave, than I did through college. I got such a sound education in those few years, that I majored in English in college and skated by because they dumbed the curiculum down to accomodate all those dimwits graduating from our liberal public schools.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
60,214
15,148
136
Originally posted by: notfred
The first paragraph is a bunch of crap. There are a LOT of teachers that don't mind being called by thier first name. This doesn't hurt thier relationship with thier students. The words "sir" and "ma'am" are only significant because old fogeys think they make people sound like they had a proper upbringing. If the teachers don't care, why should anyone else?

What is "another language" in school? Spanish? Is this one of those "you come to my country, you speak my language!" conservative rants? Should we stop teaching foreign languages in schools?

WTF is that crap about sticky notes?

"The actual curriculum can be advanced to touchy feely ignorance"
What the hell is "advanced to touchy feely ignorance"?

Yes, our school systems suck, but so does your plan.

Sir and Ma'am is about acknowledgement of respect. Teachers should be authority figures in the lower grades, not buddies.
 

Cashmoney995

Senior member
Jul 12, 2002
695
0
0
Originally posted by: notfred
The first paragraph is a bunch of crap. There are a LOT of teachers that don't mind being called by thier first name. This doesn't hurt thier relationship with thier students. The words "sir" and "ma'am" are only significant because old fogeys think they make people sound like they had a proper upbringing. If the teachers don't care, why should anyone else?

What is "another language" in school? Spanish? Is this one of those "you come to my country, you speak my language!" conservative rants? Should we stop teaching foreign languages in schools?

WTF is that crap about sticky notes?

"The actual curriculum can be advanced to touchy feely ignorance"
What the hell is "advanced to touchy feely ignorance"?

Yes, our school systems suck, but so does your plan.

You may not say Sir and Ma'am to everyone older than you, but if it is your teacher, YOU MUST. You'r teacher is your guru and you are the deciple. If a teacher is ok with the first name basis that is allright. HOWEVER, "Hey MIzz, and Yo hey can I get outa her" is not appropriate.


You come to my country and you speak my language is not a conservative rant. I am Indian, and my parents are Indian. I was born in the Good Ol' US of A and they were not. They learned english, they learned grammer and today you can not tell that they were not born here.

Maintaining one's culture is different to keeping control and discipline in school. If you are in English class you sure as hell better be speaking english in there.

I live in Houston and there are too many hispanics and other minorities trying to get by speaking their native toungue in class. They think it is cute that no one understands what they are saying.

My mother is also a substitute teacher and when a student started speaking spanish to someone else, (he was cussing quite frequently in spanish not to mention) and then picked a fight with the other student, hit him in the face, and knocked down a table. My mom made him fill out the refferal. The little jerk filled it out in spanish and gave it back to my mom. When my mom gave him a new one and said, "Fill it out in english" He threw it back to her and replied back in spanish, "Fill it out on my nuts b|tch."

You came to America for oppurtunity. There is only oppurtunity for english here. We want you to pursue life, liberty and happiness but in our school system you will speak english. And when you go to fill out your welfare or unemployment checks...You better speak english.


And not to mention being a minority does not allow you to point fingers and say that you are disadvanted. There are hundreds of thousands of people who come from other countries, and become doctors, engineers, scientists, bussiness owners and so many other well paying jobs.
 

Cashmoney995

Senior member
Jul 12, 2002
695
0
0
I think that although Salary is a very big issue when it comes to school teachers. I have seen many 15-20 year veteran teachers leaving because of student conduct. I know in Texas a teacher for 15 years can easily be making 60 thousand per year. I, however would much rather it that we raise the degree requirements for teaching and increase the base salary to 50 thousand dollars per year. I would not however, do it until we had implemented discipline into our schools.

It's fun to play around, have fun with friends, complain about a rather fiesty teacher and perhaps make an odd joke or two in class. Respect is when you can tell that a teacher is not having the greatest day and you try to make it as easy as possible for them to teach you what you need to be taught and to not give them a hard time. This in turn will give the US people who are more considerate. It used to be you could come upon a problem in a store and get swift, courteous and respectful help. Today that is not the case as so many people there are either ignorant of their stores product line and ignorant of keeping the customer happy.

Not that it is all the kids faults. Corporate stupidity such as Best Buy and CompUSA hiring dim wits. These are the people that try to sell you that stellar computer with 3 gigabytes of memory. After CompUSA turned me and my friend down for jobs, (He was A+ and Network+, and I am an Eagle Scout, well spoken and obviousely an ATAddict.) We went down to Compusa on several shifts with fangled things such as either an ATA Cable and a router asking if the two were compatible with each other. Or we grabbed a router and a monitor and asked if we could connect the monitor to the router. Funny how A) They had to ask for help, and B) Their manager never took a second to think and went "Oh yea itll work just fine, plug it in the back and your good to go. My friend also bought some ink from there. It costs 21.29, and he gave the guy $22 and the idiot prompltly gave my friend $200 and then proceeded to appologize for being out of change. My friend being the nice guy he is told the guy to keep the change and walked out of the store.
 

DAGTA

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,172
1
0
Definitely no calculators allowed until getting into sines and cosines. I meet people every day that cannot do simple math (like 80 - 25 + 30) without a calculator.
 

m2kewl

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2001
8,263
0
0
in california, they spend more on the jails/criminals then education...

what's wrong with the picture?????
 

Amorphus

Diamond Member
Mar 31, 2003
5,561
1
0
You have a poor grasp of child psychology - it has been proven again and again in studies that forcing (emphasis on FORCING) children to learn at early ages like you're suggesting is VERY, VERY BAD.

We don't need rigid discipline in elementary schools, or any school for that matter. We see this with the fact that asian kids screw up quite a bit in college after getting out of their parents' grasp - they've been bossed around about their schooling their entire life, and upon the removal of the enforcer, they screw it up. So, kids need to learn self-responsibility, not rote servitude. Now, middle and elementary schools should have much more bossy teachers (oh, but they do already).

The problem with kids nowadays is improper parenting, not improper schooling. You're complaining about parenting issues, but blaming it on schools, when in fact, schools are doing quite a job as it is. Urban schools and schools in districts with less money, maybe not, but that's a result of capitalism, not poor education.

Your argument is invalid, imho, sorry.

Kids just should not be myrmidons. Kids should be kids.
It is not the place of scholarly institutions to teach social aptitude; what we need is parents who will not give their kids excess license, which is what is happening now.
 

Klixxer

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2004
6,149
0
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Cashmoney995
In india they dont use computers or calculators and it gets them farther than kids in the US.

The problem with that comparison is that probably not everyone in India goes to school. If you're only going to be taking the elite from a country, then only take the elite from the US.

Yup, the attendance rates (in India) are worse than all surrounding countries (that includes Iraq under Saddam).

The schooling system is pretty much the same in the entire western world and most of asia too, it is what works and has evolved throughtout the years. The problem is not the system, it is the students, if you don't want to learn there is nothing anyone can do to teach you.
 

Klixxer

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2004
6,149
0
0
Originally posted by: Cashmoney995
Education.

8 hours a day, five days a week. Add homework, add friends and our education system does more parenting than parents do.

So what do we do?
We spend more money on computers and all this other junk to get kids to learn.

In india they dont use computers or calculators and it gets them farther than kids in the US.

The solution?

Boot camp.
First grade is boot camp.

You will reply yes sir and yes mam. You will not speak unless spoken to. You will respect your elders. You will suffer consequences for bad behavior. Thankyou is the correct reply to receiving a gift. Your Welcome is the correct reply to receiving a thankyou. When you bump into someone you will say sorry. You will not speak slang in school. You will not speak another language in school.

Kids who repeatedly mis behave, cause classroom disturbances that are deterimental to the learning of other kids will be sent to a real boot camp. Their parents are obviousely unable to control them and they need discipline in their lives.

We could enhance the education ten fold by teaching discipline. Class can be fun and learning can be fun. You can have fun in school. But you will respect your teachers.

The next thing? With students who are better mannered good teachers will come back to the education system. We can raise the salary for teachers allowing them to live a better life.

The actual curriculum can be advanced from touchy feely ignorant lessons, and be more direct.
We need redesign our education system to allow for learning and not allow for numbing teaching.
There are so many teachers out there which give retarded assignments to kids. They idiotically create assignments to find out whether kids read the book, such as placing sticky notes in the books where main ideas and relationships between characters are instead of actually spending time with the kids in a classroom discussion. If you can't tell that a student has read a book after a 15 minute discussion I'd be amazed at the ability of the students who did not read the book. I am not sure if the teachers actually get kick backs from 3M from getting their kids to waste so many sticky notes. One very good english teacher made everyone read their book reports or speaches in front of the class. First it promoted good public speaking habits, lowered stage fright and easily found people who had copied each other.

The next thing is that we should not allow for standardized testing in our schools. They make teachers teach for the test instead of teaching for the foundation of young lives. I believe I have spent more time on teachers telling me how to correctly bubble in an answer and how to decipher questions that are purposely meant to confuse the student into giving the wrong answer than actual teaching.


Our education system = our crime rate, our job oppurtunities, our economy and the fate of America.

We used to be a country that allowed innovation and bright minds to grow and do great things. Now all we do is hopelessly stuff piles of worthless homework on them and they have no time for self exploration. I can honestly said that I have learned more by my self than from school. More homework and more tests has never been a good solution to the problem of kids not understanding math. A teacher should be able to solve hundreds of problems in front of kids in order to teach them the correct way to solve a math problem.

There are many kids who are able to grasp it with only one example being shown. But more kids need repetition to understand concepts.

Who else thinks our education system needs to be radically re-designed?

The one size fits all and everyone is the same kind of system was tried in the Soviet Union, it was not successful. Your ideas are not new, they are in fact very old and there is a reason why they are not implemented anymore except in countries where compliance is more important than education.