When will Israel take off the gloves??

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: DBL

BTW, bulldozing houses comes after a terrorist attack, not before. Are you claiming that Israel purposely creates terrorist attacks, which kill innocent civilians in order to squash internal political bickering? You seriously have a twisted view of reality. May I ask where you received such a first-rate education?

Israel has put themselves in the place of judge, jury and executioner. Innocent peoples' houses and livelihoods are being destroyed so long as they live in the same area as an alleged terrorist camp, or have some alleged connection to Hamas. There is no due process, there is no trial or courtroom. Not to mention the city-wide lockdowns, curfews and plethora of checkpoints enforced on thousands of innocent people.

Yes there are Palestinians who wish to destroy Israel, but to suggest that Israel has been fighting restraintedly is idiotic.

Let's take an amoral stance for a moment. Power X has many many times more firepower than Power Y. Now a conflict occurs which lasts many years. Power X does not use it's full capability to destroy Power Y. Not using it ability is by definition restraint. Now why this happens is open for debate, but then we get in to the moral issue. Israel COULD entirely eliminate the Palestinians in short order, with less effort than the US expended in Iraq by virtue of it's proximity. That Israel has shown restraint is not really arguable, but the motives behind that, ahh.. that is where intrigue lies.

perhaps the thought of genocide based on racial or relgious grounds strikes them at a level you can't understand.

If they did attack like that, they understand the world would come to the aid of the Palestinians, the US right at the front I would hope, maybe it is the US holding them back.

I do not know at what level it strikes them. Neither do you. As far as I know, neither you nor I are Palestinian or Israeli. I was answering a statement about restraint. Israel is using restraint. If they thought it in their best interest, there would be little anyone could do until it is over short of lobbing a few nukes. Obviously, Israel has weighed the options and potential consequences, and has decided to go about it's policies just as it has. So have the Palestinians.

 

[Alistar7]

I wish they would make up their minds already, it's not like they are trying to pick a viable candidate for the democratic party....

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
I wish they would make up their minds already, it's not like they are trying to pick a viable candidate for the democratic party....

Or an honest one in the case of the sole viable Republican one Yes, the Democrats have their hands full, to be sure. The nice thing is not being one who elects a representative based on party, I get to poke fun at everyone, which is of course a legitimate use for a politician.

Anyway, back to the point, it would be nice if they would make up their minds. Unfortunately there are too many "theys" on both sides. The Israelis fight among themselves for power between the varying parties, and the Palestinians who would like to see an end are thwarted by other factions who would blow up a well intentioned deligation of the most well meaning to preserve their way of life, namely revenge and power. If you look closely, this isnt about the Israelis and Palestinians as a group, but rather as the hostile interactions between differing factions. This is the only way I make sense of the situation.

 

[Alistar7]

McCain would have gotten great support last time, which is why Bush trashed him after the first primary, but his day might have passed already.


The outlook is bleak on both sides, as usual, they are never going to allow anyone other than a puppet to their special interests even be nominated, who cares if the supreme court takes over and decides which idiot we get.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

We agree here. Once I entertained the thought of public office, but to get to a level of real power requires sleeping in so many beds, that I was afraid I would have sold my soul without even noticing it. Like in the Lord of the Rings, where one of the elves is tempted by Frodo's offer of the Ring, I would prefer to diminish, and remain myself.

 

[Alistar7]

exactly, to get there you have to sell whatever principle you had, and once your there, you need to kiss every a*s you can to keep enough $$$ flowing in to get re-elected.

what's sad is so many americans blindly follow one party.

 

[Zrom999]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: Zrom999



Another source:
CLICK HERE

I think Amnesty International is a more recognized Organization.

I don't care anymore about who killed more etc. I have no stake in this conflict. It has become like watching an ongoing sports game. I don't think US gov't planned the 9/11 attacks either, so don't even try to pull that bs. I do not support terrorism, I hate it probably even more than you do.

I am also not referring to the homes of terrorist, but rather the ones the Israeli government refuses to give permits to. If you didnt have your head up your arse you would have seen that by now. If the Israeli gov't is really demolishing 'illegal' homes they can finish it in one big sweep, but their policy of knocking the homes over in this gradual manner shows that there is something else behind it (such as provocation). They ignore these violations until they want to provoke a response and bulldoze a few houses and save some for next time. As for you, it seems that evey Palestinian is a terrorist and you don't give a damn whether the house was knocked over before or after an attack, or whether the people living there were terrorist or not. As long as it was a Palestinian home its fine with you.

I made a logical conclusion to the actions of the Israeli gov't. If you don't like it, don't hate me, hate logic or hate yourself for not understanding.

Wow, grasping at straws, huh? Your source is exposed as non-existent and then to remedy the obvious gaffe, you link to an Amnesty International report from 12/1999, almost a year before the current Palestinian uprising began. Are you asserting that Palestinian terrorists waited and plotted the current three-year campaign of murder and terror to exact revenge because Israel demolished some illegal Palestinian homes? I've never heard this theory before. In fact, I always thought the Palestinian position was that the Intafada began when Sharon visited the Temple Mount.

But let's let this be for a moment and attack this from a more recent angle. In the last week or so, there have been no less than five homicide attacks. Were these attacks the direct result of Israel demolishing their homes, homes of their relatives or friends? Since that is your contention, please refer me to evidence that this is the case. Were the two British nationals recruited to commit murder motivated by demolition of their homes in Britain?

Putting that aside, I would like to address your accusation that I think all Palestinians are terrorists. I never said that nor do I believe it. However, I do believe Palestinian culture has been perverted by the likes of Hamas and other terror organizations. Various studies show that a majority of the Palestinian population supports and celebrates homicide bombings. As such, the Palestinian population bears an overwhelming amount of responsibility for their current situation. It's not much different than German citizens sharing guilt and responsibility for the Holocaust. A Culture must understand were they have gone wrong and help themselves to correct their current state of affairs before they can blame anyone else.

The first source does exist. It refers to divisions of PARC, I didn't mention it again because it was a Palestinian source and might be biased. Those people who wrote that article used that source, I used the article as my source in my older post. The amnesty internation source i believe would be less biased. House demolitions are an ongoing tactic. I used those articles to show the slow and methodical procedures and the lame reasoning behind the demolitions as proof that it is a method of provocation rather than law enforcement or punishments for terrorism.

Here is something from Hamas:

The spiritual leader of Hamas offered on 7 October to stop suicide attacks against Israeli civilians if Israel stops "aggression against Palestinians," such as house demolitions and land confiscations.

SOURCE

And stop your aggression, demolishing homes. Release prisoners and stop assassinations. Once the occupation and all those measures against our people stop, we are ready to totally study stopping martyrdom operations, in a positive way

SOURCE2

It seems house demolitions are one of those things Hamas is angry about.

Israeli method of house demolition is nothing more than a means of provocation.
Terrorism is used to respond to house demolitions.
Choke on that, my reasoning wasn't flawed.

What are you going to b1tch about next? You going to say logic is wrong? I proved my argument. You are the one grasping at straws, but I can't expect much from a loser from Brooklyn who most likely watches too much public access TV.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: Zrom999



Here is something from Hamas:

The spiritual leader of Hamas offered on 7 October to stop suicide attacks against Israeli civilians if Israel stops "aggression against Palestinians," such as house demolitions and land confiscations.

SOURCE

And stop your aggression, demolishing homes. Release prisoners and stop assassinations. Once the occupation and all those measures against our people stop, we are ready to totally study stopping martyrdom operations, in a positive way

SOURCE2

It seems house demolitions are one of those things Hamas is angry about.

Israeli method of house demolition is nothing more than a means of provocation.
Terrorism is used to respond to house demolitions.
Choke on that, my reasoning wasn't flawed.

What are you going to b1tch about next? You going to say logic is wrong? I proved my argument. You are the one grasping at straws, but I can't expect much from a loser from Brooklyn who most likely watches too much public access TV.

Could your post possibly be any more ironic? You throw together a few quotes from the spiritual leader of Hamas and claim that what he said on one particular day about Israel is the reason for terrorism. The ramblings of an undeniably evil man, you claim, constitutes logic. We are talking about a man whose beliefs fly directly in the face of anything which can be considered logical. This is evidenced by his ability to convince young men to take their own lives and the lives of other innocent persons. To many others, that is the antonym of the word "logic". Therefore any conclusions you can draw based on the ramblings of a man whose beliefs are not based in reality are themselves flawed.

In case you missed it, the stated goal of Hamas is THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL. Here is all the proof you need, taken from the horses mouth, so to speak.
taken from THE COVENANT OF THE HAMAS

1) 'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)
2) 'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be.' (Article 13)
3) 'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.'
4)'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.'
5)'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.'
Etc...........

I'm still trying to find the part in the covenant where it talks about Israel demolishing Palestinians homes. I think we can apply a little LOGIC and conclude that Hamas has no interest in promoting peace regardless of whether Israel stops demolishing Palestinian homes as you claim.

BTW, I found it interesting that you choose to label me

a loser from Brooklyn who most likely watches too much public access TV

. Is this conclusion based on factual information and logical reasoning? What do any of these things have to do with the other? Is there something wrong with being from Brooklyn? Where are you from? Oh, I see you've disabled your profile. Who's the loser now?

 

[Zrom999]

Claim:
Israel provokes terrorist attacks by demolishing homes so other issues take a back seat.

Proof:
1) Israeli refusal to issue building permits.
2) The on and off enforcement of permits.
3) Demolition of homes is ONE of the actions that ticks off Hamas.
4) Response to terrorism a high priority for any government.
(see previous postings for details)

I can't make it more simple.

Since you fail to understand you are a loser, a loser from Brooklyn. I guess thats where you got your highly biased first rate mis-education from. If you didn't want me to know where you lived you should have disabled your profile, but that doesn't matter, I just wrote that to get your attention.

I can stick mathematical equations in here to prove my point if I wanted to, but I'm sure that would only make your poor little brain suffer. If you can prove me wrong I will admit it and retract everything, but instead I get mindless rage based ramblings as responses. Don't even bother trying to argue with me, I have logic on my side, while you just have hate and emotion.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: Zrom999
Claim:
Israel provokes terrorist attacks by demolishing homes so other issues take a back seat.

Proof:
1) Israeli refusal to issue building permits.
2) The on and off enforcement of permits.
3) Demolition of homes is ONE of the actions that ticks off Hamas.
4) Response to terrorism a high priority for any government.
(see previous postings for details)

I can't make it more simple.

Since you fail to understand you are a loser, a loser from Brooklyn. I guess thats where you got your highly biased first rate mis-education from. If you didn't want me to know where you lived you should have disabled your profile, but that doesn't matter, I just wrote that to get your attention.

I can stick mathematical equations in here to prove my point if I wanted to, but I'm sure that would only make your poor little brain suffer. If you can prove me wrong I will admit it and retract everything, but instead I get mindless rage based ramblings as responses. Don't even bother trying to argue with me, I have logic on my side, while you just have hate and emotion.

Assuming your ridiculous proof to be valid statements of fact, they do not come even close to proving your contention. You contention is made up of two ideas completely unrelated to one another. The first is that Israel provokes terrorist attacks by demolishing homes. The second is that because of this, other issues can take a back seat. IOW, the second part of your contention is nothing more than....surprise....your naive opinion, thus proving your contention is made impossible.

You know, it's truly amusing how one who purports to draw conclusions based in "logic" can fail so miserably at it.
1) You conclude that I don?t want you to know where I live. Clearly this was not a logical conclusion, as I never made statements to suggest that.
2) You conclude that proving your conclusions mathematically would overwhelm my inferior intellect. This is truly the most illogical of conclusions as I hold a BS in Mathematics. Damn, talk about eating you own words, huh?
3) You conclude that I am driven by hate and emotion (is emotion bad?), yet you provide no logical reasoning for those conclusions other than to have previously stated that I thought all Palestinians were terrorists (which I never said).

I'm also curious as to why you claim to have written where I live to "get my attention". Is that some sort of veiled threat? Well, either way, it does say a lot about your maturity level, huh?

 

[Zrom999]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: Zrom999
Claim:
Israel provokes terrorist attacks by demolishing homes so other issues take a back seat.

Proof:
1) Israeli refusal to issue building permits.
2) The on and off enforcement of permits.
3) Demolition of homes is ONE of the actions that ticks off Hamas.
4) Response to terrorism a high priority for any government.
(see previous postings for details)

I can't make it more simple.

Since you fail to understand you are a loser, a loser from Brooklyn. I guess thats where you got your highly biased first rate mis-education from. If you didn't want me to know where you lived you should have disabled your profile, but that doesn't matter, I just wrote that to get your attention.

I can stick mathematical equations in here to prove my point if I wanted to, but I'm sure that would only make your poor little brain suffer. If you can prove me wrong I will admit it and retract everything, but instead I get mindless rage based ramblings as responses. Don't even bother trying to argue with me, I have logic on my side, while you just have hate and emotion.

Assuming your ridiculous proof to be valid statements of fact, they do not come even close to proving your contention. You contention is made up of two ideas completely unrelated to one another. The first is that Israel provokes terrorist attacks by demolishing homes. The second is that because of this, other issues can take a back seat. IOW, the second part of your contention is nothing more than....surprise....your naive opinion, thus proving your contention is made impossible.

You know, it's truly amusing how one who purports to draw conclusions based in "logic" can fail so miserably at it.
1) You conclude that I don?t want you to know where I live. Clearly this was not a logical conclusion, as I never made statements to suggest that.
2) You conclude that proving your conclusions mathematically would overwhelm my inferior intellect. This is truly the most illogical of conclusions as I hold a BS in Mathematics. Damn, talk about eating you own words, huh?
3) You conclude that I am driven by hate and emotion (is emotion bad?), yet you provide no logical reasoning for those conclusions other than to have previously stated that I thought all Palestinians were terrorists (which I never said).

I'm also curious as to why you claim to have written where I live to "get my attention". Is that some sort of veiled threat? Well, either way, it does say a lot about your maturity level, huh?

I also hold a BS in Mathematics and a pile of awards to go with it, so you are no better than me, but that doesn't matter.

Lets review the facts:

Israel has internal problems.
If there is a terrorist attack it becomes the #1 priority.
If the terrorist are the #1 priority, there cant be any other #1 priority.
If the house doesn't have a permit, it is demolished.
Israel won't issue permits.
Israeli enforcement of permits is "selective".
It demolishes some homes now and some homes later.
If Israel demolishes houses, Hamas will respond with suicide attacks.
When a terrorist attack occurs all other current problems are temporarily forgotten.

How can I not conclude that Israel provokes attacks to turn attention away from internal problem? The evidence is right in your face. Whether I'm right or wrong, the conclusion is valid according to the given facts and I have seen nothing to the contrary (at least none given by you).

Where the hell are your facts? Your claims include "Palestinians are bad people... wa wa wa... they kill more innocents wa wa wa... they celebrate the suicide attacks wa wa wa...". I don't give a damn about that.

You said houses were demolished after attacks and belonged to terrorist. --- I proved you wrong.

I gave evidence of this practice as a means of provocation.

You wanted proof house demolitions led to terrorist attacks... I gave you quotes right from the terrorist.

I made a logical conclusion from the facts and you can't seem to handle it... grow up, give a valid counter point or don't post.

I backed up every claim I made, countered everything you questioned, face it... YOU LOST.

You seem to think that attempting disproving those minor jest (that you took so personally) at your intellect, where you live, and your emotional state etc. would destroy my logically sound conclusion... well it doesn't. Tough luck. You need better evidence than that. You should know better if you really have a BS in Mathematics. (I wonder why you didn't try to disprove the statement about the location of your head... )


I rest my case. I made a statement, backed it up with facts, and proved my point. You don't like it, TOO DAMN BAD!
If you can PROVE ME WRONG! All I've seen is that YOU CAN'T disprove anything, and YOU CAN'T DEAL WITH IT.

Mess with the bull and you get the horns son.

 

[etech]

Zrom999

If Israel demolishes houses, Hamas will respond with suicide attacks.

There is one major flaw in your proof.

Hamas will comit suicide attacks no matter what Israel does. Destroy houses, suicide attack, not destroy houses, suicide attacks.

Other than than it was a decent attempt.

 

[Zrom999]

Originally posted by: etech
Zrom999

If Israel demolishes houses, Hamas will respond with suicide attacks.

There is one major flaw in your proof.

Hamas will comit suicide attacks no matter what Israel does. Destroy houses, suicide attack, not destroy houses, suicide attacks.

Other than than it was a decent attempt.

I guess the indisputable validity of the statement relies on the words of the Spiritual Leader of Hamas being true :frown:. If his statements can be proven to be true (which I cannot do) then my logic would be rock solid. Other than that it makes an interesting theory.

 

[etech]

For your statement to be true than it would have to always be true. Then of course if Hamas has ever committed a suicide bombing without the "cause" of it being Israel destroying a house then it is not always true.

Would you like to wager that I can find an incident that where Hamas did not claim that the reason was a house?

 

[Zrom999]

Originally posted by: etech
For your statement to be true than it would have to always be true. Then of course if Hamas has ever committed a suicide bombing without the "cause" of it being Israel destroying a house then it is not always true.

Would you like to wager that I can find an incident that where Hamas did not claim that the reason was a house?

I see your point, I can't make a generalization based on the actions of an organization whose actions are totally unpredictable. They can send some poor sap with a bomb strapped to him into a restaurant and claim the food there taste like crap for all anyone really knows. I originally tried to prove a certain possibility can exist, but I guess I got overzealous and it seemed I tried to prove it as a norm. Back to the drawing board... at least you seem to understand the point I was trying to make.

 

[IamDavid]

Lebanon should be a whole in the ground by next week if there government doesn't turn over the terrorist. Just like we insisted the Taliban do...

Israel accused Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat (search) of involvement in the arms shipment, which it said was headed from Lebanon to the Gaza Strip. An explosives expert from the Lebanese guerrilla group Hezbollah (search) was among several people on board.

Israel Intercepts Arms Shipment

They must take out the source.

 

[mrCide]

Originally posted by: IamDavid
Lebanon should be a whole in the ground by next week if there government doesn't turn over the terrorist. Just like we insisted the Taliban do...

Israel accused Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat (search) of involvement in the arms shipment, which it said was headed from Lebanon to the Gaza Strip. An explosives expert from the Lebanese guerrilla group Hezbollah (search) was among several people on board.

Israel Intercepts Arms Shipment

They must take out the source.

Please..

 

[Trente]

Originally posted by: etech
Zrom999

If Israel demolishes houses, Hamas will respond with suicide attacks.

There is one major flaw in your proof.

Hamas will comit suicide attacks no matter what Israel does.

That is very true; Hamas has no other goal than to take over Palestine ("Eretz-Yisrael" as jews call it) and to make sure Israel is destroyed.

But I live in Israel, so my opinion is biased... :frown:


Trente