When will companies learn people first, profits last.

[Craig234]

This is a topic that needs care to discuss - it can't be discussed as 'profits are good' or 'profits are bad'.

They can be either. They are very useful in responsible capitalism - as former communist countries have pretty much all come to understand.

(Cuba has recently announced a recognition of the value of more private business).

It'd be like saying 'money is good' or 'money is bad' for society, trying to make a blanket statement that included the incredibly useful role it plays in, say, helping the efficiency of the economy over barter, versus discussing massive war that was driven by one side trying to oppress another for money. It's 'not that simple'.

Profit allows small business and companies who make helpful new drugs; it also allows Goldman Sachs and the corruption on non-negotiation in Medicare Part D.

People who expect to solve *incentive* problems - bad behavior when we create under-regulated sociopathic major corporations legally to put shareholder profit ahead of any other societal interests, within the law but not precluding lobbying for bad law or even breaking the law when it's cost-effective - with appeals to the people who run the corporations to 'make better choices for society'.

It's like offering a thousand dollars to anyone who will burglarize you and saying how bad the people are who take the offer and the problem is their bad choice.

In theory, one thing that can help a bit is consumer choice - but IMO in practice that's a very small and ineffective part of what helps. People buy badly. Constantly.

Another thing that helps more is the government regulating on behalf of the public interest. Younger people may not be familiar with the idea, not having seen it much.

Big problem there is when the political system is corrupted to need the donations from the same interests who want to act against the public interest.

So, to get the good regulation, we largely need to reduce the role of corporate money in corrupting our elections.

We've done the opposite - increasing its role more than every before in our history as of the 'Citizens' Supreme Court ruling, now with 'mega pacs'.

Corporate political donations (more and more anonymous reducing even a chance for a little accountability) are skyrocketing, defeating any candidate who represents the people against any bad corporate practice. One reason this is not only bad for society but a threat to democracy is that it turns the people's government into an oppressive interest against the people, and makes people not value democracy.

The issue in your OP isn't so much about 'bad people running corporations' as it is about the problem bad rules cause.

This is where we need leaders who are watching out for the public interest to pass laws to have strong businesses acting better - but our system isn't electing them.

We have some of those people - IMO, they're mostly the 'Progressive Caucus' in Congress - but they've always been a minority and still are.

People like Bernie Sanders may be right on, but how many like him are elected?

 

[herm0016]

I never took a regular intro to sociology class. The two sociology classes were

Sociology of Race and Ethnicity: here I learned the truth about race and ethnic groups. How race is a man made idea, and that we are all one people. How people are divided by arbitrary lines created by men for their own benefits. The only reason I am well to do, while a child in Africa is dying of starvation is because of these arbitrary lines that men drew.

Sociology of Food: Here we learned the truth about free trade. Free trade was actually slave trade. How people like the IMF and World Bank exploit the poor countries like loan sharks. How so much of what we consume was actually grown using slave labor for these big food corporations. That companies like Sodexo and Monsanto were among the most evil of evil companies. How people in poor countries are dying of starvation because food companies are exploiting them for higher profits.

um.. wow? i want to laugh, but i just keep feeling sad for the human race.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Remember when you finish middle school, take economics if your high school offers it. Then everything will make much more sense to you.

I'm 39 and have had many economics courses in college. He's still closer to being correct than the current model, which is about as wrong as it's possible to get.

 

[Craig234]

Cuts both ways. Without demand you have no customers and no profit. Demand comes from the bottom up. Would you rather have a liquor store across the street from a Ford plant where everyone was making 100K or a sweat shop where people had no choices? Henry Ford understood this and most capitalists of his era.

Short-term wealthy interests are about cutting the wealth of others, which makes their wealth more valuable.

Ultimately money means nothing, percent of ownership does.

Many of these people only understand 'owning a bigger share', and not anything about 'making the pie bigger'.

When the Great Depression greatly lowered prices, some got a lot of bargains.

So we constantly see the rich use their massive power to cut their own taxes, to cut wages and benefits for 99% of society, and so on, with no end in sight until plutocracy.

When we return to the days of the public in massive poverty, they'll do what they did the last time that was the case, fight to keep it that way.

These types turn societies into far less productive ones - themselves owning it all.

We've seen the pattern in any number of other countries, where a small corrupt class owns nearly everything and most are in poverty.

They aren't the country with the world's most powerful military, though, making our following that model even more dangerous to the world, much less our own citizens.

When our own citizens are worse and worse off, they're less likely to be concerned about the 'moral use of our power' overseas if it benefits us.

Gee, how did the unthinkable evil of slavery be able to exist again?

Oh, ya. Our people enjoyed the benefits for centuries. There were always 'moral concerns', but they had a way of not resulting in policy change for a very long time.

Just as the violent colonization of the third world was tolerated quite easily for a long time after slavery ended.

Increasing the concentration of wealth in the first world not only screw the people there, it paves the way for screwing others as well.

But what do short-sighted wealthy people do? They demand the people who manage their wealth make sure they have as much more next year than this they can get.

There's not a lot of hand-wringing about 'societal issues' among the people who lobby for better policies for the rich regarding the effects of those policies.

And the American people, the workers, the bottom 99%, don't have a very effective lobbying organization. Not much money from them in the game.

Save234

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Today all companies care about are profits. How to make more money for them self. How to cheat out their employees and the consumers. The bottom line is all they see now. That is why we had this banking crisis. That is why we had Enron, WorldCom, and Madoff. Because people put profits before humanity and society.

Companies need to learn the most import thing in order are:

1. Your employees
2. The consumers
3. Your supplies employees
4. The rest of society
5. The rest of the planet
....
LAST: Profits

Profits are the least important thing.

Open a company irl and run it according to the principles above. Then get back to everyone once you have experience in the real world.

 

[Zebo]

BTW many companies do put people high up. You can never put them totally first or you go bankrupt. Google intel costo and plenty of other offer generous salary, benefits, perks and profit sharing. Just depends on management style and if you can keep the bean counters out. I read a story about costco CEO constantly fighting with his board about treating employees more like sam club so far they have failed.

 

[manlymatt83]

Hypothetical:

Toyota decides the current Prius isn't efficient enough and Toyota engineers believe they can double the MPG rating of the vehicle but it will cost the company a billion dollars in research and development.

Since the company only broke even because they minimized profit and maximized employee pay they can't afford to make this new technology.

Fast forward 10 years. Toyota hasn't made a profit in 10 years and their vehicle designs are aging, sales are down because of this but they can't afford to create new designs, they simply don't have the money because profit hasn't been their priority. They only have enough money to keep their existing business running. Unfortunately their revenue is down because of the poor sales and now they have to let 10,000 workers go because they can't afford to pay them.

Yeah... profit is a bad thing. D:

Well said sir.

 

[DCal430]

um.. wow? i want to laugh, but i just keep feeling sad for the human race.

What was wrong with the classes I took?

 

[JohnnyGage]

What was wrong with the classes I took?

That you actually PAID for them. Once you understand the real world you should go back and sue this institution. It's sad that you say you learned this in college, because with your posting history reflects more of a freshman.....in high school. You should really write some letters, seriously.

 

[Craig234]

What was wrong with the classes I took?

Nothing. People who don't understand things like that tend to attack those who do.

Remember in the civil rights era how some people would understand the injustice of discrimination, what others would say to them?

They'd call them, with hate, 'N***** lovers'. To the person saying it, that was a horrible insult. They couldn't understand why someone might say "why yes, I am."

 

[Double Trouble]

Me and my parents do not talks politics, only arguing ensues.

In other words, your parents are reasonable people who actually have some life experience and know how the real world works. You on the other hand .. well, the best thing we can say is, you're young enough that there's still hope for filling that head of yours with something useful instead of mush.

 

[Double Trouble]

I never took a regular intro to sociology class. The two sociology classes were

Sociology of Race and Ethnicity: here I learned the truth about race and ethnic groups. How race is a man made idea, and that we are all one people. How people are divided by arbitrary lines created by men for their own benefits. The only reason I am well to do, while a child in Africa is dying of starvation is because of these arbitrary lines that men drew.

Sociology of Food: Here we learned the truth about free trade. Free trade was actually slave trade. How people like the IMF and World Bank exploit the poor countries like loan sharks. How so much of what we consume was actually grown using slave labor for these big food corporations. That companies like Sodexo and Monsanto were among the most evil of evil companies. How people in poor countries are dying of starvation because food companies are exploiting them for higher profits.

Man, what a load of indoctrination crap. You should definitely seek out an actual institution of higher learning where they teach you something instead of that garbage. There are lots of great schools available, you're clearly not at one of them.

 

[Craig234]

Man, what a load of indoctrination crap. You should definitely seek out an actual institution of higher learning where they teach you something instead of that garbage. There are lots of great schools available, you're clearly not at one of them.

Someone who is ignorant of the issues, insists that the information he doesn't have is wrong.

 

[brencat]

Wow! This thread really delivers. OP, seriously thanks for a good laugh so early on a Monday. My personal priority would be:

Investment
Customers
Profits
Employees
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The rest of society
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The rest of the planet

Look back on this thread in 15 years after you've been working and paying taxes and developed a healthy level of cynicism about life and tell me if you agree

 

[Doppel]

The classes DCAL refers to probably are not all bad. I remember some strong impressions from classes like that. The problem is they are too short to possibly cover everything they ought objectively, so one comes away with a highly focused view without conflicting information.

Our entire system is no longer focused on fair play or treating fellow citizens like you would like to be treated. Instead it has devolved to a rat eat rat system where anything goes as long as you win AND you can keep your spoils however you got them.

Yep.

 

[Craig234]

We'd be better off with more people like the OP and less people like his attackers.

Hey, let's get rid of all hunting limits. Wipe a species out to extinction - no problem.

All that matters is your desire to kill the last couple of the species, not any larger benefit to not doing so.

Let's get rid of any limiting polluters, too. All that matters is their desire to benefit by polluting - however it affects others, who cares?

If they themselves even lost access to unpolluted resources - not a problem, all that matters is they had the 'freedom' to do it. Forget 'the human race', as Brencat said.

The guy who found a vaccine for polio and gave it away, Dr. Salk? What an idiot!

 

[brencat]

If they themselves even lost access to unpolluted resources - not a problem, all that matters is they had the 'freedom' to do it. Forget 'the human race', as Brencat said.

Let's not get carried away Craig. The OP hypothesized a socialist view of the world -- one ultimately if carried out, would doom him and his business (and possibly everyone else too if that mentality was pervasive in society), and those of us who live in the real world are simply trying to re-orient his priorities. I don't hate the human race, rather I place it as last priority in the context of this conversation.

For example, I put profits ahead of employees because you don't hire people if your business is sufficiently sized that you can do it all yourself (i.e. sole proprietor, consultant, etc). Likewise large businesses don't hire for charity to their fellow man.

And as a small business owner, why the fvck would I care about some poverty stricken village in India -- just to pick a place? I might care from a humanitarian perspective, donate to charity, donate my free time. But that has NOTHING to do with running my business day to day if I don't have a vested interest in that market.

You lefties always get so emotional about stuff. The OP will be better suited in life (and much happier too) if he learns early to live life with a rational, ultra practical approach, and decouple his personal feelings from the needs of his business.

 

[MotF Bane]

I never took a regular intro to sociology class. The two sociology classes were

Sociology of Race and Ethnicity: here I learned the truth about race and ethnic groups. How race is a man made idea, and that we are all one people. How people are divided by arbitrary lines created by men for their own benefits. The only reason I am well to do, while a child in Africa is dying of starvation is because of these arbitrary lines that men drew.

Sociology of Food: Here we learned the truth about free trade. Free trade was actually slave trade. How people like the IMF and World Bank exploit the poor countries like loan sharks. How so much of what we consume was actually grown using slave labor for these big food corporations. That companies like Sodexo and Monsanto were among the most evil of evil companies. How people in poor countries are dying of starvation because food companies are exploiting them for higher profits.

You should have taken an introduction to sociology course, and one with a good professor, who actually taught sociology, not his beliefs. It would have more of a benefit to you. Instead, you missed the point of race and ethnicity as it relates to sociology, and gobbled up the malarkey spewed forth by your professor. Even more so, the sociology of food course, assuming your professor espoused the same views you now hold, which I strongly suspect is the case, is totally fucked up. That's not a real course anymore, it doesn't teach you, it does not expect you to think, it expects you recite by rote and mimicry the ideas of your professor.

 

[MotF Bane]

Someone who is ignorant of the issues, insists that the information he doesn't have is wrong.

Have you also, Craig, indulged yourself in such hate-fueled courses of ignorance? Those courses would be the equivalent of listening to Rush Limbaugh speaking on race relations, or Bernie Madoff speaking on financial ethics.

 

[MotF Bane]

The classes DCAL refers to probably are not all bad. I remember some strong impressions from classes like that. The problem is they are too short to possibly cover everything they ought objectively, so one comes away with a highly focused view without conflicting information.Yep.

I disagree. I believe those courses are too long, too focused on those particular aspects, and without causing the student to have to encounter the broader precepts of sociology.

 

[Mursilis]

Someone who is ignorant of the issues, insists that the information he doesn't have is wrong.

I actually have a BA in sociology, and I still recognize that the OP is an idiot. Double Trouble is right - OP is just spouting garbage.

 

[piasabird]

America using mexican field workers is just a form of slave labor. How are we different from any third world country? Traditionally the USA has used all kinds of cheap labor. Irish immigrants, Italian immigrants, Poor blacks from the south, cheap labor south of the border. We have a tradition of abusing the poor to benefit the rich. Also our general society also has benefitted from taking advantage of the poor. Many people are just too stupid to realize this. The people that want open immigration are the same ones who want to enslave the poor immigrants.

 

[Matt1970]

I don't know what companies all of you may have worked for, but employees want higher pay. Higher pay gets paid for with profits.

 

[Schadenfroh]

The company's sole responsibility is to provide a good longterm return on investment for its shareholders. Sadly, patience is lacking and this typically translates into mere short term returns. If a sizable chunk of the company's stock is owned by the employees via ESOPs, then all the better.

Pleasing the customer, within cost-considered reason, causes the customers to become longterm customers and/or causes the customer to speak highly of the company to his / her friends, thus increasing the number of customers the company has, so it is in their best interest to please customers, longterm.

Good, motivated employees are more loyal, productive and creative than miserable drones, so it is in their best longterm interest to keep select employees pleased.

 

[her209]

Google takes care of their employees. Their employees in turn are more productive, more creative, and work longer hours.