When did "normal" people start going off the deep end about trivial political issues?

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Yes, i know politics has never been a game of pattycake, but the level of bitterness both political sides are showing towards each other in the last 10 years or so is getting annoying. Not a day goes by where some idiot doesn't advocate trying Bill Clinton for treason, or George Bush for war crimes. To the outside observer, the politics aren't that much different (in practice if not rhetoric). Has the electorate really become that polarized to trivial political differences, or are the shrill voices on the extremes just that much louder owing to having more platforms for them to pontificate from?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I don't know? When did people make it a habit to cut others off on the freeway? When did it become the norm to not care about others feelings and concerns and have a me myself and I attitude?

I believe this countries morals and ethics are totally debased today mainly because of the pro corporate policies enacted from 1975 (SUN-PAC decision) until now which has made 99% of us slaves to corporate america who now have all the real influence..



 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,953
576
126
Hey screw you pal! Oh wait, I'm not "normal people" so this doesn't apply to me.

Nevermind.
 

B00ne

Platinum Member
May 21, 2001
2,168
1
0
Dont worry it's not just in America - it is everywhere. Actually sometimes I envy your politicians (Dems and Reps), for acting together on important decisions. In Germany there seems to be a constant war between parties and never ever anything gets done. When the governing faction want to enact something , the opposing parties shoot it down, until they are in the governing faction and the game just continues with reversed roles...

Well maybe it aint that bad but often it feels like it. It feels like no politician is concerned about the country and the ppl just about getting their party to power....

btw Carbonyl, we are all slaves to the corporate world. Money is power, we the ppl long ago gave up our powers by free will, by making the economy our religion and the almighty $ is God..
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: B00ne
Dont worry it's not just in America - it is everywhere. Actually sometimes I envy your politicians (Dems and Reps), for acting together on important decisions. In Germany there seems to be a constant war between parties and never ever anything gets done. When the governing faction want to enact something , the opposing parties shoot it down, until they are in the governing faction and the game just continues with reversed roles...

Well maybe it aint that bad but often it feels like it. It feels like no politician is concerned about the country and the ppl just about getting their party to power....

btw Carbonyl, we are all slaves to the corporate world. Money is power, we the ppl long ago gave up our powers by free will, by making the economy our religion and the almighty $ is God..


Ya it's different today. America entered the 70s with a clear legacy of helping the poor, allowing the little business man to compete on main steet, and genuinly concerned about the nations infrastucture dispite being extremly conservative socially. We were liberal economically with 90% top marginal rates (who was a billionaire before 1975). Today it's all about corporate tax breaks for relocation, and the big corps getting out of control with little or no oversight, and certainly no call of monopolistic activities.

Here a good read//

"THE RISE OF THE CORPORATE SPECIAL INTEREST SYSTEM

Before launching into the statistics of the 80s, it is important to understand the sea-change in American politics that occurred in the 70s. America entered the 70s with a firm commitment to helping the poor, a legacy inherited from Roosevelt's New Deal, Johnson's Great Society, and the social radicalism of the 60s. Several changes in the 70s, however, would give rise to a quite different political culture: the corporate special interest system.

The first change was the 1974 decentralization of power in the House of Representatives, when 22 committees delegated much of their authority to 172 subcommittees.1 This not only created a mass of competing special interests, but enabled corporations to lobby their particular subcommittees much more directly, secretly and effectively.

The second major change was the 1975 SUN-PAC decision, which essentially legalized corporate political action committees (PACs) and their donations. In 1974, there were 89 corporate PACs; a decade later, this had exploded to 1,682. The result was an enormous shift in political power. In the late 70s, corporate PACs scored a number of victories -- defeating Ralph Nader's proposal for a Consumer Protection Agency, killing a tax hike -- that galvanized the business community as never before. "Success," journalist Hedrick Smith drily noted, "brought more bees after the honey." 2 Corporate political activism soared; one lobbyist described the atmosphere in 1980 as "a genuine virtual fervor." 3

In 1992, corporations formed 67 percent of all PACs, and they donated 79 percent of all contributions to political parties. 4 Studies show an exceptionally high correlation between PAC donations and the laws passed in their favor. Although the right to petition Congress is a constitutional one, citizens without donations are never granted access to their representatives. One could argue, therefore, that the corporate special interest system is unconstitutional.

In 1994, Republicans took over Congress, claiming to end 40 years of liberal rule. But the 80s were a profoundly conservative era, with corporate lobbyists urging tax cuts, deregulation, business exemptions, re-armament and welfare reduction. Democratic politicians participated in the new system every bit as willingly as Republicans. During the 80s, corporate PACs freely gave to incumbents of both parties, because both accommodated them. Incumbents won the donations 90 percent of the time.5 The researchers of one PAC study wrote: "When we began [our] interviews [with lobbyists]... we assumed corporate PACs would have many enemies in Congress -- people who were out to get them and that they in turn wanted to defeat. We regularly asked about this in interviews and were surprised to learn that corporations didn't really feel they had enemies in Congress." The only exception was Senator Howard Metzenbaum -- a Democrat in the old fashioned sense of the word -- whom lobbyists mentioned repeatedly. However, Metzenbaum retired in 1994.6

If this comes as a surprise, one should know that the anti-business rhetoric of most Democrats is for public consumption only. According to the above researchers, "One PAC official told us, 'You have [politicians] that will hold rallies right outside this building here, hold news conferences and picket lines periodically, every year,' attacking the company and its policies. However, 'When they go to Congress? they tend to ameliorate their anti-big business or pro-consumer stance.'"Text
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,860
6,396
126
Give power back to the people. Corporations, Unions, and other Orgs should have no ability to contribute to Political campaigns, they don't vote, Individuals do.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,953
576
126
Ya it's different today. America entered the 70s with a clear legacy of helping the poor, allowing the little business man to compete on main steet, and genuinly concerned about the nations infrastucture dispite being extremly conservative socially.
Things change.

When developing nations lampoon the "American poor" who are fat and own televisions and whose children wear $300 basketball shoes and manage to make payments on the $50,000 Escalade or Seville parked in front of their nearly condemned housing, the novelty sorta wears off the 'war against poverty' mantra.

And of course we have a larger labyrinth of social welfare programs than ever before. But for all our moral crusading, we haven't managed to stop people from engaging in behavior or thinking which keeps them poor if they were born that way or makes them poor if they weren't.

We've uplifted the people who were inclined to be uplifted, to expect anything more is simply foolish.

As far as having access to representatives, I've never donated a flat nickel directly to any candidate in my life, yet I've met with a few of my representatives in addition to candidates.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,953
576
126
Give power back to the people. Corporations, Unions, and other Orgs should have no ability to contribute to Political campaigns, they don't vote, Individuals do.
And corporations are individuals who pool their resources together to work for them just like any member organization.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
You may think you have access (BTW how do you afford $30,000 a plate dinners) but you don't. It's lip service as the acticle says. Bottom line is takes extensive sums of money to run for any office today and the PACs give it to them. We only see and get to choose from the candidates who have been given this money. Once they get in power they will pay back though legislation, pork, contracts those who put them there primarly if they want to stay in power. This is why the lies from thier lips has become almost a given by the public. Republican or Democrat the system is corrupted. Wnna fix things? Make it so no one enitity can contribute more than $1000 for a candidate and give free equal time to them on major networks. Good Luck.

Anyway, I've heard about this sense of entilement causing the country to fall apart ethically. Some truth to that too. I'm only for helping those who want to put forth equivalent effort.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,953
576
126
You may think you have access (BTW how do you afford $30,000 a plate dinners) but you don't.
I think you're confusing right to access with right to results. So I sat down with my representative and we had a nice discussion for 30 minutes. Does that mean I'm entitled to some kind of result? Nope.

Its a cop-out to suggest that, because my representative didn't vote the way I wanted her to, that must mean I didn't wave around enough money. First, there is the possibility that my position isn't as sound as I think it is. Of course when nobody agrees with us, they must be wrong because we couldn't possibly be, right? Yeah. Oh, I know, because it coudn't possibly be us who is wrong, there must be some other corrupting influence preventing others from seeing things our way. Yeah, that's it.

Nothing gets an elected official's attention quite like the threat of being unemployed. Not even money can usurp the risk of losing your next bid for re-election because your constituents are no longer happy with you.

If you can't muster enough support for your cause to make your representative take notice, that means not too many people share your views, at least not to the extent you do. Oh no, that couldn't be. It simply cannot be that my cause isn't shared substantially by others, so there must be another explanation.
 

mastertech01

Moderator Emeritus Elite Member
Nov 13, 1999
11,875
282
126
"Ya it's different today. America entered the 70s with a clear legacy of helping the poor, allowing the little business man to compete on main steet, and genuinly concerned about the nations infrastucture dispite being extremly conservative socially. We were liberal economically with 90% top marginal rates (who was a billionaire before 1975). Today it's all about corporate tax breaks for relocation, and the big corps getting out of control with little or no oversight, and certainly no call of monopolistic activities."

The 70's is actually when America really started a trend towards putting women into the work force and driving cost of home ownership into the two income bracket. The values of homes skyrocketed and placed the price out of reach of the common working male who wanted wife at home to raise the children. Thus came two income families in the lower income sector, latch key children, combined with the major push of drug usage, lack of control of the children, and a move toward a liberal view. Economy, energy crisis, cold war, just pushed the young generation into withdrawal and further drug usage and more crime.

These are just observations Ive made over the years, not documented fact. But I am convinced that once we took MOM from the home, and forced her to work, and took supervision and nurturing from our children, thats when America took its greatest turn for the worst.
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
0
0
Originally posted by: mastertech01
"Ya it's different today. America entered the 70s with a clear legacy of helping the poor, allowing the little business man to compete on main steet, and genuinly concerned about the nations infrastucture dispite being extremly conservative socially. We were liberal economically with 90% top marginal rates (who was a billionaire before 1975). Today it's all about corporate tax breaks for relocation, and the big corps getting out of control with little or no oversight, and certainly no call of monopolistic activities."

The 70's is actually when America really started a trend towards putting women into the work force and driving cost of home ownership into the two income bracket. The values of homes skyrocketed and placed the price out of reach of the common working male who wanted wife at home to raise the children. Thus came two income families in the lower income sector, latch key children, combined with the major push of drug usage, lack of control of the children, and a move toward a liberal view. Economy, energy crisis, cold war, just pushed the young generation into withdrawal and further drug usage and more crime.

These are just observations Ive made over the years, not documented fact. But I am convinced that once we took MOM from the home, and forced her to work, and took supervision and nurturing from our children, thats when America took its greatest turn for the worst.


No offense man, but what about the mom's that want to work? Just because the traditional family has changed doesn't mean it contributes to the decline of America. Are women supposed to just be barefoot and pregnant all the time? It's 2003 you know...not 1950...
 

mastertech01

Moderator Emeritus Elite Member
Nov 13, 1999
11,875
282
126
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Originally posted by: mastertech01
"Ya it's different today. America entered the 70s with a clear legacy of helping the poor, allowing the little business man to compete on main steet, and genuinly concerned about the nations infrastucture dispite being extremly conservative socially. We were liberal economically with 90% top marginal rates (who was a billionaire before 1975). Today it's all about corporate tax breaks for relocation, and the big corps getting out of control with little or no oversight, and certainly no call of monopolistic activities."

The 70's is actually when America really started a trend towards putting women into the work force and driving cost of home ownership into the two income bracket. The values of homes skyrocketed and placed the price out of reach of the common working male who wanted wife at home to raise the children. Thus came two income families in the lower income sector, latch key children, combined with the major push of drug usage, lack of control of the children, and a move toward a liberal view. Economy, energy crisis, cold war, just pushed the young generation into withdrawal and further drug usage and more crime.

These are just observations Ive made over the years, not documented fact. But I am convinced that once we took MOM from the home, and forced her to work, and took supervision and nurturing from our children, thats when America took its greatest turn for the worst.


No offense man, but what about the mom's that want to work? Just because the traditional family has changed doesn't mean it contributes to the decline of America. Are women supposed to just be barefoot and pregnant all the time? It's 2003 you know...not 1950...

There you go, just ignore the ethical responsibility to your children and future generations by putting it all black or white to the extremes. One must either have a mindset of "barefoot and pregnant" or "womens rights activist". Thats how this country has become so pathetic. This is the brilliant way of thinking that has helped drive this country into the toilet. IMHO
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
0
0
Wait, how exactly am I doing that? If I misunderstood your post, than I apologize. However, I fail to see how having mothers working contributes to the decline of this country. I am not saying no parent should be at home, but it does not mean that it should always be the woman. I have a friend who just had a daughter with his wife. She was getting payed more than him, so he decided to leave his job to be a full time stay at home dad. He loves it and spends all his waking moments with her.

I wasn't trying to take anything to the "extreme", I sometimes just don't understand people who always want things the way they were "in the good ole days" when in reality, they really can't ever be again. It would be great if most families could have one family member work, and the other stay home with the kids (mom or dad), but a lot of the time, that is just not fiscally possible.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your post, but my point remains.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Originally posted by: B00ne
Dont worry it's not just in America - it is everywhere. Actually sometimes I envy your politicians (Dems and Reps), for acting together on important decisions. In Germany there seems to be a constant war between parties and never ever anything gets done. When the governing faction want to enact something , the opposing parties shoot it down, until they are in the governing faction and the game just continues with reversed roles...

Well maybe it aint that bad but often it feels like it. It feels like no politician is concerned about the country and the ppl just about getting their party to power....

btw Carbonyl, we are all slaves to the corporate world. Money is power, we the ppl long ago gave up our powers by free will, by making the economy our religion and the almighty $ is God..


Ya it's different today. America entered the 70s with a clear legacy of helping the poor, allowing the little business man to compete on main steet, and genuinly concerned about the nations infrastucture dispite being extremly conservative socially. We were liberal economically with 90% top marginal rates (who was a billionaire before 1975). Today it's all about corporate tax breaks for relocation, and the big corps getting out of control with little or no oversight, and certainly no call of monopolistic activities.

Here a good read//

"THE RISE OF THE CORPORATE SPECIAL INTEREST SYSTEM

Before launching into the statistics of the 80s, it is important to understand the sea-change in American politics that occurred in the 70s. America entered the 70s with a firm commitment to helping the poor, a legacy inherited from Roosevelt's New Deal, Johnson's Great Society, and the social radicalism of the 60s. Several changes in the 70s, however, would give rise to a quite different political culture: the corporate special interest system.

The first change was the 1974 decentralization of power in the House of Representatives, when 22 committees delegated much of their authority to 172 subcommittees.1 This not only created a mass of competing special interests, but enabled corporations to lobby their particular subcommittees much more directly, secretly and effectively.

The second major change was the 1975 SUN-PAC decision, which essentially legalized corporate political action committees (PACs) and their donations. In 1974, there were 89 corporate PACs; a decade later, this had exploded to 1,682. The result was an enormous shift in political power. In the late 70s, corporate PACs scored a number of victories -- defeating Ralph Nader's proposal for a Consumer Protection Agency, killing a tax hike -- that galvanized the business community as never before. "Success," journalist Hedrick Smith drily noted, "brought more bees after the honey." 2 Corporate political activism soared; one lobbyist described the atmosphere in 1980 as "a genuine virtual fervor." 3

In 1992, corporations formed 67 percent of all PACs, and they donated 79 percent of all contributions to political parties. 4 Studies show an exceptionally high correlation between PAC donations and the laws passed in their favor. Although the right to petition Congress is a constitutional one, citizens without donations are never granted access to their representatives. One could argue, therefore, that the corporate special interest system is unconstitutional.

In 1994, Republicans took over Congress, claiming to end 40 years of liberal rule. But the 80s were a profoundly conservative era, with corporate lobbyists urging tax cuts, deregulation, business exemptions, re-armament and welfare reduction. Democratic politicians participated in the new system every bit as willingly as Republicans. During the 80s, corporate PACs freely gave to incumbents of both parties, because both accommodated them. Incumbents won the donations 90 percent of the time.5 The researchers of one PAC study wrote: "When we began [our] interviews [with lobbyists]... we assumed corporate PACs would have many enemies in Congress -- people who were out to get them and that they in turn wanted to defeat. We regularly asked about this in interviews and were surprised to learn that corporations didn't really feel they had enemies in Congress." The only exception was Senator Howard Metzenbaum -- a Democrat in the old fashioned sense of the word -- whom lobbyists mentioned repeatedly. However, Metzenbaum retired in 1994.6

If this comes as a surprise, one should know that the anti-business rhetoric of most Democrats is for public consumption only. According to the above researchers, "One PAC official told us, 'You have [politicians] that will hold rallies right outside this building here, hold news conferences and picket lines periodically, every year,' attacking the company and its policies. However, 'When they go to Congress? they tend to ameliorate their anti-big business or pro-consumer stance.'"Text

Good article and read, thanks. I was wondering when the Lobbyists' Party came into power. Now how to get into history the fall of the Lobbyists' Party while still having a United States.

 

mastertech01

Moderator Emeritus Elite Member
Nov 13, 1999
11,875
282
126
Insane3D,

I have absolutely no problem with the man reversing the traditional role either, as long as he can provide the same quality nurturing that the wife could do. Women seem to have a more natural way of doing it, perhaps due to the maternal instinct, but if a man can substitute as well that is great as well.

My point was the neglect often caused when both parents are forced into having to carry full time jobs to carry a minimum quality of life, has been a direct contribution to the collapse of the fabric of our family values, and has contributed to a much higher rate of divorce, has left children in hopeless situations. The more broken families we create, the fewer "normal" adults come of it.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
I have said for a long time that the internet will become the greatest influence in the history of man for social and cultural change. This forum is an example of early change. News of the actions of our political leaders is almost instantly available to us now on the web. There used to be a disconnect between reading the news and actually getting out the pen and paper, envelope, stamp, etc, to share a response with letters to the editor of the local newspaper. There was also not much of a chnce that your views would be published. Now we read the news and we are already sitting at the keyboard where we can post our views in a forum such as this. There is no cooling off period between reading the news and getting all of the materials to respond. In addition, all of our comments are "published". There is no editor to select only a few letters to publish. The internet is also a bigger "box" and needs more stuff to fill it up than a newspaper or a ½hr news show. So many news items that would, for various reasons, not see the light of day are now seen on the web. We are at an early stage of where this will go. For now, many of us are experimenting with speaking our minds to a large audience. The next step is when we all become activists and email our leaders every day with our opinions. When many people have the email address of their governor, Senetor, and Congressmen in there address books and use them regularly, there will be a chance for the common man to influence politics. We will one day organize into blocks of voters who will promise politicians our votes to them or their opponent depending on what they do. Many posts may be harsh out of the frustration of not being able to change anything. This may change as we realize that we can make a difference.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: mastertech01
"Ya it's different today. America entered the 70s with a clear legacy of helping the poor, allowing the little business man to compete on main steet, and genuinly concerned about the nations infrastucture dispite being extremly conservative socially. We were liberal economically with 90% top marginal rates (who was a billionaire before 1975). Today it's all about corporate tax breaks for relocation, and the big corps getting out of control with little or no oversight, and certainly no call of monopolistic activities."

The 70's is actually when America really started a trend towards putting women into the work force and driving cost of home ownership into the two income bracket. The values of homes skyrocketed and placed the price out of reach of the common working male who wanted wife at home to raise the children. Thus came two income families in the lower income sector, latch key children, combined with the major push of drug usage, lack of control of the children, and a move toward a liberal view. Economy, energy crisis, cold war, just pushed the young generation into withdrawal and further drug usage and more crime.

These are just observations Ive made over the years, not documented fact. But I am convinced that once we took MOM from the home, and forced her to work, and took supervision and nurturing from our children, thats when America took its greatest turn for the worst.


Interesting observation. Could be all these factors contributing, no?

From personel responsibility, lack of parenting, becoming a number to your employer and the government instead of a person? This would'nt be a problem if we had some of the protectionist polices we had before corps got in congress. Labor and anti-trust laws have been watered down in the effort of deregualtion forming huge Corps to kill lots of small businesses. Whens the last time you bought shoes, electronics, hardware from a mom and pop shop? No it's HomeDepot, Footlocker, and Bestbuy. Huge chains with huge buying power paying $7 an hour forceing two parent bread winners. Our borders are open to cheap slave labor which we now must compete with in the effort of globalization. A Corporations only intrest is growth, maxium sales and lowest labor rates which hurts everyone but the stockholders. And they have been the driving influence behind policy since the SUN_PAC law was passed.

Anyway we are products of our enviroment, I have seen my dad's wages for his positions ( a former pepsi truck driver and finally wharehouse manager) stay basically stagnant for 25 years and my father-in-laws work (steel worker) enitrely disappear or move to the low paying non-union southern states. Today Father in law is driving a walmart tractor trailor at 3/4 what he made in the early 80's. Meanwhile both companies did very well in thier stock price over the last 25 years and consumer prices and homes have skyrocketed.


I see no hope for the unskilled or limited skilled worker. And even hear news about white collar moving to third world. Buy stock in a fortune 100:)
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Hehe I just relised I sorta got OT with my politicans ranting. But it's still the core of the divide. I posit the "shrill voices on the extremes" are simply manisfestations of the anger and fustration people feel because they are no longer empowered and are essentailly slaves which are allowed to speak, which is why you hear it.

And the politicans do it to keep your mind off the real issues.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,860
6,396
126
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
I have said for a long time that the internet will become the greatest influence in the history of man for social and cultural change. This forum is an example of early change. News of the actions of our political leaders is almost instantly available to us now on the web. There used to be a disconnect between reading the news and actually getting out the pen and paper, envelope, stamp, etc, to share a response with letters to the editor of the local newspaper. There was also not much of a chnce that your views would be published. Now we read the news and we are already sitting at the keyboard where we can post our views in a forum such as this. There is no cooling off period between reading the news and getting all of the materials to respond. In addition, all of our comments are "published". There is no editor to select only a few letters to publish. The internet is also a bigger "box" and needs more stuff to fill it up than a newspaper or a ½hr news show. So many news items that would, for various reasons, not see the light of day are now seen on the web. We are at an early stage of where this will go. For now, many of us are experimenting with speaking our minds to a large audience. The next step is when we all become activists and email our leaders every day with our opinions. When many people have the email address of their governor, Senetor, and Congressmen in there address books and use them regularly, there will be a chance for the common man to influence politics. We will one day organize into blocks of voters who will promise politicians our votes to them or their opponent depending on what they do. Many posts may be harsh out of the frustration of not being able to change anything. This may change as we realize that we can make a difference.

Interesting observation, if Marshal MaCluhan were here, he might respond, "The Internet IS the message."
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: tcsenter
You may think you have access (BTW how do you afford $30,000 a plate dinners) but you don't.
I think you're confusing right to access with right to results. So I sat down with my representative and we had a nice discussion for 30 minutes. Does that mean I'm entitled to some kind of result? Nope.

Its a cop-out to suggest that, because my representative didn't vote the way I wanted her to, that must mean I didn't wave around enough money. First, there is the possibility that my position isn't as sound as I think it is. Of course when nobody agrees with us, they must be wrong because we couldn't possibly be, right? Yeah. Oh, I know, because it coudn't possibly be us who is wrong, there must be some other corrupting influence preventing others from seeing things our way. Yeah, that's it.

Nothing gets an elected official's attention quite like the threat of being unemployed. Not even money can usurp the risk of losing your next bid for re-election because your constituents are no longer happy with you.

If you can't muster enough support for your cause to make your representative take notice, that means not too many people share your views, at least not to the extent you do. Oh no, that couldn't be. It simply cannot be that my cause isn't shared substantially by others, so there must be another explanation.

It's money that get you noticed everything else is lip service for your consumption.

Here are some examples

Great book

Someitmes I don't even know why I come here and talk politics. They are all the same I am wasting my breath.. A vote for Bush is a vote for Clinton is a vote for Big Business and more police state on ordinary citizens, less privacy, less consititutional rights, and more taxes on everyone but the filthy rich. Does'nt matter which party. Until the money is gone from politics people will only get to choose from candidates who represent monies intrests.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,860
6,396
126
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Give power back to the people. Corporations, Unions, and other Orgs should have no ability to contribute to Political campaigns, they don't vote, Individuals do.
And corporations are individuals who pool their resources together to work for them just like any member organization.

Everyone in the pool can have their voice heard at the polls, 1 man/woman 1 vote!
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,953
576
126
Everyone in the pool can have their voice heard at the polls, 1 man/woman 1 vote!
They already do, since corporations and organizations cannot vote.

Again, if you cannot find enough support for your cause to make your elected official take notice because you weild enough votes to unemploy them, that means your cause isn't shared by the majority, at least not to the extent you do.

That's what the system is all about and that's why advocates of failed or unpopular causes want to change it.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,860
6,396
126
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Everyone in the pool can have their voice heard at the polls, 1 man/woman 1 vote!
They already do, since corporations and organizations cannot vote.

Again, if you cannot find enough support for your cause to make your elected official take notice because you weild enough votes to unemploy them, that means your cause isn't shared by the majority, at least not to the extent you do.

That's what the system is all about and that's why advocates of failed or unpopular causes want to change it.

That goes without saying. Which is why I express the point: 1 man/woman, 1 vote! Anything else is a corruption of Democratic principles.