When comparing these Two PC builds, which would you recommend?

[Monkey_Business]

The AMD "Katharine" computer

Processor - AMD Phenom II X4 965 BE 185.99
Motherboard - ASUS Crosshair III Formula AM3 socket motherboard $199.99
RAM - Kingston HyperX 4GB 2x2 GB DDR3 1333 MHz $133.99
Graphics card - Sapphire HD 5870 Vapor-X $439.99
Power supply - Corsair HX850 $199.99
Hard drive - WD caviar black 1TB 7200RPM 64MB cache $119.99
Drive - LITE-ON 18x DVD-ROM - $19.99
Operating system - Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit $99.99
Minus the cost of the case (I already have a CM HAF 932 full tower case)
+PC shop construction $99.99
+Tax ???.??

$1,649.91 (Approximately)

__________________________________________________ ___________________________

The Intel "Jessica" computer (a bit faster than AMD for a few Hundred dollars more)

Processor - Intel Core i7 930 $294.99
Motherboard - Foxconn flamingblade LGA1366 $209.99
RAM - G.Skill Ripjaws 6GB 3x2 GB DDR3 1600 MHz triple channel $179.99
Graphics card - MSI Radeon HD 5870 $499.99
Power supply - Corsair HX850 $199.99
Hard drive - Western digital caviar black 1TB 7200RPM 64MB cache $119.99
Operating system - Windows 7 home premium 64-bit $99.99
Drive - LITE-ON 18x DVD-ROM $19.99
Minus the cost of the case
+PC store construction $99.99?
+Tax ???.??

$1,874.91 (Approximately)

 

[Blain]

When comparing these Two PC builds, which would you recommend?

When comparing these two PC's for doing what tasks?
We need details about how the PC will be used in order to give you an intelligent opinion.


Example: A guy goes into a Ford dealership and asks...
"Which is better, the SuperDuty Truck or the Mustang."

How should the salesman answer his question?

 

[Monkey_Business]

When comparing these two PC's for doing what tasks?
We need details about how the PC will be used in order to give you an intelligent opinion.


Example: A guy goes into a Ford dealership and asks...
"Which is better, the SuperDuty Truck or the Mustang."

How should the salesman answer his question?

Gaming, mostly gaming.

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

The i7 is a nice machine, although I don't have an AMD X4 to compare.

 

[mfenn]

Gaming, mostly gaming.

The AMD build is better (i.e. more cost-effective) for gaming.

HOWEVER, the mobo and PSU are both ridiculous overkill. The 650TX @ $90 and GA-890XA-UD3 @ $140 are both more than sufficient for your needs and will end up saving you $170 off of the total price.

Either put that $170 into your pocket or get an SSD. You will notice the performance of the SSD much more that you'll notice the fanciness of a $200 mobo and 850W PSU.

 

[Athadeus]

Since you're having a store build it for you, I expect neither party will be overclocking it. Therefore I would suggest an 1156 intel build based on the i5 750 or i7 860. Everything that mfenn said is good too, the AMD system is competitive in gaming value with his tweaks.

 

[RaistlinZ]

What's up with the insanely overpriced 5870 in build #2? Might as well just get a GTX 480 at that price. And yeah, that PSU is overkill, especially since they're raping you on the price of it as well. An HX650 would be more ideal, and bout $80.00 cheaper.

 

[Powermoloch]

PSU is overkill go for the 650 Watt instead.

 

[Ayah]

Yeah, why is the 5870 in Jessica 60$ more?
Unless it's the MSI Lightning or something and you're doing extreme overclocking. (Which from having the store build it, you aren't.)

 

[ThorofThunder]

The Intel "Jessica" computer (a bit faster than AMD for a few Hundred dollars more)

Processor - Intel Core i7 930 $294.99
Motherboard - Foxconn flamingblade LGA1366 $209.99
RAM - G.Skill Ripjaws 6GB 3x2 GB DDR3 1600 MHz triple channel $179.99
Graphics card - MSI Radeon HD 5870 $499.99
Power supply - Corsair HX850 $199.99
Hard drive - Western digital caviar black 1TB 7200RPM 64MB cache $119.99
Operating system - Windows 7 home premium 64-bit $99.99
Drive - LITE-ON 18x DVD-ROM $19.99
Minus the cost of the case
+PC store construction $99.99?
+Tax ???.??

$1,874.91 (Approximately)

Replace the motherboard with a Gigabyte UD3. (Saves $60)

Replace the PSU with a 750W. (Saves $100-$120)

Replace the HDD with a WD Caviar Black 500 GB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache (Saves $50)

Replace the 5870 with a 5850 and do some minor to medium amounts of OCing to bridge the $200 price gap. (Saves $200-$225)

So far you've saved, at least, about $400 without compromising any noticeable performance. Put some of that into an SSD and you'll be flyin'.

Remove in-store construction and get a friend to do it, and teach you at the same time. (Saves $100)

Ask your friends if they have any extra copies of Windows 7 lying around. (Saves $100)

Another $200 saved!

If you use Bing's cashback program, you could probably net another $50-$100 of savings while getting free shipping, too.

All in all you could save yourself about $650-$750. With that extra cash you could even buy a second 5850 as well as a top-of-the-line SSD. Your machine would rip through everything you could possibly fathom. If I were you, though, I'd skip out on getting an SSD right now and skip out on getting a second gfx card as well. Get the SSD and the second gfx card down the line when the prices are much cheaper and when games become more demanding.

EDIT: Since you mentioned an in-store PC building service, I'm taking a leap of faith and guessing that you have a Micro Center near you. They're still selling i7 930's at $199. That would save you another $100! That brings your total saved to about $750-$850.

NOTE: You will also need an aftermarket CPU cooler. Invest about $40-$50 in a Mugen 2 Rev. B or CoGage True to unlock your Intel CPU's incredible potential.

 

[Monkey_Business]

Replace the motherboard with a Gigabyte UD3. (Saves $60)

Replace the PSU with a 750W. (Saves $100-$120)

Replace the HDD with a WD Caviar Black 500 GB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache (Saves $50)

Replace the 5870 with a 5850 and do some minor to medium amounts of OCing to bridge the $200 price gap. (Saves $200-$225)

So far you've saved, at least, about $400 without compromising any noticeable performance. Put some of that into an SSD and you'll be flyin'.

Remove in-store construction and get a friend to do it, and teach you at the same time. (Saves $100)

Ask your friends if they have any extra copies of Windows 7 lying around. (Saves $100)

Another $200 saved!

If you use Bing's cashback program, you could probably net another $50-$100 of savings while getting free shipping, too.

All in all you could save yourself about $650-$750. With that extra cash you could even buy a second 5850 as well as a top-of-the-line SSD. Your machine would rip through everything you could possibly fathom. If I were you, though, I'd skip out on getting an SSD right now and skip out on getting a second gfx card as well. Get the SSD and the second gfx card down the line when the prices are much cheaper and when games become more demanding.

EDIT: Since you mentioned an in-store PC building service, I'm taking a leap of faith and guessing that you have a Micro Center near you. They're still selling i7 930's at $199. That would save you another $100! That brings your total saved to about $750-$850.

NOTE: You will also need an aftermarket CPU cooler. Invest about $40-$50 in a Mugen 2 Rev. B or CoGage True to unlock your Intel CPU's incredible potential.

I'm sure that the i7 930 automatically comes with a heat sink and fan. I'll wait until the warranty has expired before I consider overclocking. I'm not aiming for something ridiculous like 4.4 GHz. 3.4 or 3.5 would be good enough. You should very easily be able to reach those clock speeds with any decent air cooler.

What are the ideal operating temperatures, both idle and load, for the i7?

The past few graphics cards I've owned have had problems with severe overheating. My last GPU, an HD 4850, idled at 85 *C and over 100 *C load. Needless to say it didn't last very long, and had to be thrown away and replaced with a different GPU.

My HD 5750 idles at 33-35 *C and 60-65 *C load. Even while playing Crysis. And my case has absolute minimal airflow.

The MSI HD 5870 Lightning and Sapphire HD 5870 Vapor-X both have hefty coolers already attached to them from the factory. I've heard that both these cards are reputed to run very cool, even after being overclocked.

They run considerably cooler than using the reference HD 5870 fan and heat sink.

Sapphire discontinued the 1st revision of their HD 5870 Vapor-X. The 2nd revision runs about 13 *C hotter on both idle and load. It also runs very slightly slower than the 1st revision. But it does has a physically smaller PCB in both length and width.

How about putting Two 500 GB hard drives in RAID 0?

 

[mfenn]

I'm sure that the i7 930 automatically comes with a heat sink and fan. I'll wait until the warranty has expired before I consider overclocking. I'm not aiming for something ridiculous like 4.4 GHz. 3.4 or 3.5 would be good enough. You should very easily be able to reach those clock speeds with any decent air cooler.

What are the ideal operating temperatures, both idle and load, for the i7?

The past few graphics cards I've owned have had problems with severe overheating. My last GPU, an HD 4850, idled at 85 *C and over 100 *C load. Needless to say it didn't last very long, and had to be thrown away and replaced with a different GPU.

My HD 5750 idles at 33-35 *C and 60-65 *C load. Even while playing Crysis. And my case has absolute minimal airflow.

The MSI HD 5870 Lightning and Sapphire HD 5870 Vapor-X both have hefty coolers already attached to them from the factory. I've heard that both these cards are reputed to run very cool, even after being overclocked.

They run considerably cooler than using the reference HD 5870 fan and heat sink.

Sapphire discontinued the 1st revision of their HD 5870 Vapor-X. The 2nd revision runs about 13 *C hotter on both idle and load. It also runs very slightly slower than the 1st revision. But it does has a physically smaller PCB in both length and width.

How about putting Two 500 GB hard drives in RAID 0?

Your concerns seem a little, odd, to say the least. The reference 5870's coolers do a fine job in keeping the GPUs cool. Just because a temperature seems "hot" to you (from a human perspective) does not mean that the temperature is too hot for the GPU.

Now, your lack of airflow is a major problem, and is likely what killed your 4850. No matter how beefy of a heatsink you put on a card, the laws of thermodynamics say that if the input temperature is too warm, the heatsink will accomplish precisely nothing. A bigger heatsink cannot magically generate cool temperatures, thus you need to ensure that you have proper airflow into the intake of the heatsink.

WRT the HDDs in RAID 0: no, just no. You're multiplying your failure probability by 2 two for very little gain compared to what you could get with an SSD.

 

[Monkey_Business]

Your concerns seem a little, odd, to say the least. The reference 5870's coolers do a fine job in keeping the GPUs cool. Just because a temperature seems "hot" to you (from a human perspective) does not mean that the temperature is too hot for the GPU.

Now, your lack of airflow is a major problem, and is likely what killed your 4850. No matter how beefy of a heatsink you put on a card, the laws of thermodynamics say that if the input temperature is too warm, the heatsink will accomplish precisely nothing. A bigger heatsink cannot magically generate cool temperatures, thus you need to ensure that you have proper airflow into the intake of the heatsink.

WRT the HDDs in RAID 0: no, just no. You're multiplying your failure probability by 2 two for very little gain compared to what you could get with an SSD.

I have ample reason to believe my HD 4850 was factory-defective. It ran at the same temperatures while I had the side panel of my computer removed.

 

[mfenn]

I have ample reason to believe my HD 4850 was factory-defective. It ran at the same temperatures while I had the side panel of my computer removed.

My point was that the reference card will be fine and is cheaper. You could of course get a defective card either way.

 

[yh125d]

Katharine, but sub in an i5 750, some $100-150 P55/H55 board to your liking, and an Antec Truepower New 750 (~$110). Just as fast, with less overkill on the PSU, all for less money. And even at stock speeds I'd recommend an aftermarket CPU cooler. The stock intel one is quite poor indeed. Even a $30 xigmatek 963 or Cooler Master Hyper 212/tx3 would be considerably better

 

[ThorofThunder]

If you're adamant about getting a 5870 but you want it to be cool, then buy a $399 5870 and spend about $50 on an aftermarket GPU cooler - check out the Arctic Cooling Accelero Twin Turbo Pro. It's incredibly easy to install and drops GPU temperatures (under load) from 12-20+ degrees C while remaining absolutely silent.

If you want that performance but want to save the money, though. Grab a $299 5850 reference card, the aforementioned aftermarket GPU cooler (requires 5 seconds of modding - you just bend or cut the edges of 11 fins), and OC the brains out of it while still keeping it at 60-65C under full load.

I still think you're spending a little too much on this machine. You could spend about $1,200 or so (excluding a monitor and case) and have a top-of-the-line computer that's future-proofed for the next year or longer (games-wise). When the time comes, just throw in a duplicate of whatever Radeon HD 5xxx you buy and you'll be back on top.

 

[Monkey_Business]

Katharine, but sub in an i5 750, some $100-150 P55/H55 board to your liking, and an Antec Truepower New 750 (~$110). Just as fast, with less overkill on the PSU, all for less money. And even at stock speeds I'd recommend an aftermarket CPU cooler. The stock intel one is quite poor indeed. Even a $30 xigmatek 963 or Cooler Master Hyper 212/tx3 would be considerably better

Most aftermarket air coolers for processors are reasonably inexpensive. Usually well below $100, and add much lifetime onto the processor due to lower idle and load temperatures. Heat is the #1 cause of hardware failure.

I would recommend an aftermarket cooler for any CPU, even at stock speeds.

I'm curious if the computer store will allow me to keep my warranty if I buy an aftermarket air cooler and pay for them to install it. What thermal paste would you recommend I buy to go with it?

Some coolers have very physically heavy heat sinks (like the CM V8) which may bend your motherboard, as they are screwed directly into it.

The Gigabyte X58's have extra durable PCB's. These motherboards are probably a much better choice in both quality and performance than the Foxconn Flamingblade X58. They are comparably priced. In fact, I might get one of them instead.

I've held the GA-EP45-UD3P mobo, and I would probably have a mighty hard time trying to break it in half if I actually tried to. Not that I would...

It has 2 oz copper inside the PCB. Making it significantly more durable than other motherboards.

The most expensive air cooler I've seen is the coolermaster V10. About $129.99.

What high-performance CPU cooler would you recommend for <$100 and allow plenty of overclocking headroom for the i7 930?

 

[Fayd]

Most aftermarket air coolers for processors are reasonably inexpensive. Usually well below $100, and add much lifetime onto the processor due to lower idle and load temperatures. Heat is the #1 cause of hardware failure.

I would recommend an aftermarket cooler for any CPU, even at stock speeds.

only if heat was the primary contributor to a CPU failure. CPU's are pretty stout. most "failures" are the result of the motherboard, or the PSU, or RAM. or software... or idiot users. it's seldom the CPU itself that goes bad.

heat is hardly the #1 contributor of hardware failure. manufacturing defects is. followed closely by improper installation. (dont think that by having a shop do the build for you, that they're gonna do the install properly either. my friend got his PC from cyberpowerpc (i think..) and they neglected to put CPU paste on. he was wondering why he was having ridiculously high temps with one of those tiny WC loops (just from CPU to rear fan)... popped off the HS, no paste. at all.)

at stock speeds, the stock heat sink is guaranteed to work just fine for the expected life of the processor.

there are other reasons to go with an aftermarket cooler, even at stock speeds. but heat isnt one of them. (at stock speeds, silence/aesthetics are the main criteria)

the "extra durable PCB" of gigabyte is a marketing term. it doesnt mean the board's gonna last longer or be stronger than any other brand. while gigabyte is a quality board, buy based on the features, not advertising fluff. while i'm on the subject of gigabyte, i do love their flash menu. so much nicer than the bullshit i had to go through with MSI.

most overclockers recommend the prolimatech megahalems. tbh, though, most high-end heatsinks perform pretty much comparably. you can find comparisons on this website (you know, the non-forum section...) that cover that topic rather extensively. pick the best combo of silence and performance for you.

 

[mfenn]

Monkey_Business,

If you won't listen to me, then please listen to Fayd. He's absolutely right and is only trying to help clear up your misconceptions.

 

[JEDIYoda]

PSU is overkill go for the 650 Watt instead.

There is no such thing as overkill when it comes to PSU`s........

 

[fffblackmage]

There is no such thing as overkill when it comes to PSU`s........

You won't be running the PSU within its effective operating load range if you have a very high wattage PSU, but only a light load. You could argue you might do SLI/xfire later, but I find that selling the old video card and buying a new one is just simpler and generally more efficient.

-----
Generally, heat is only an issue out of overclocking or acoustic concerns, like Fayd already mentioned. As long as you're running the CPU/GPU at its specified clockspeeds with the stock cooler, the temps will be within safe operating range. If anything, the higher temps would bring out defects sooner.

CPUs are literally baked at the end of manufacturing to force defective chips to fail before they get sent to consumers (The heat causes defects to manifest themselves sooner). After that, the product is not very likely to fail. Things usually fail very early during use, or at the end of its useful lifespan.

Fayd also mentioned CPUs being quite stout. I have an Athlon 2600+ Barton that I literally abused by setting an absurd 2.0Vcore and overclocking it to its maximum. Temp was at like 70C under full load or something with the stock Cu-based Al-fin cooler. The CPU still works, but the mobo was damaged.

 

[yh125d]

Most aftermarket air coolers for processors are reasonably inexpensive. Usually well below $100, and add much lifetime onto the processor due to lower idle and load temperatures. Heat is the #1 cause of hardware failure.

I would recommend an aftermarket cooler for any CPU, even at stock speeds.

I'm curious if the computer store will allow me to keep my warranty if I buy an aftermarket air cooler and pay for them to install it. What thermal paste would you recommend I buy to go with it?

Some coolers have very physically heavy heat sinks (like the CM V8) which may bend your motherboard, as they are screwed directly into it.

The Gigabyte X58's have extra durable PCB's. These motherboards are probably a much better choice in both quality and performance than the Foxconn Flamingblade X58. They are comparably priced. In fact, I might get one of them instead.

I've held the GA-EP45-UD3P mobo, and I would probably have a mighty hard time trying to break it in half if I actually tried to. Not that I would...

It has 2 oz copper inside the PCB. Making it significantly more durable than other motherboards.

The most expensive air cooler I've seen is the coolermaster V10. About $129.99.

What high-performance CPU cooler would you recommend for <$100 and allow plenty of overclocking headroom for the i7 930?

I wouldn't, I'd recommend you do what I said and buy Katharine but with an i5 and a p55/h55 motherboard. It's a better option than the others imo. Cooler Master Hyper 212 plus if overclocking to 3.6 or lower, Thermalright Ultra Extreme or Zalman CPNS10x if OCing more

 

[ThorofThunder]

What high-performance CPU cooler would you recommend for <$100 and allow plenty of overclocking headroom for the i7 930?

Noctua NH-D14 for $89

or

Scythe Mugen 2 Rev. B for $45

 

[Murloc]

get an intel i7 8xx cpu with p55 and a 650W psu, you spare lots of money and get enough power for your videocard

 

[Monkey_Business]

Like I've said before, I have never overclocked anything in my life, I've been to the BIOS menu only about 8 times, and it was not to overclock. After I've learned enough, and the warranty is expired on my PC, I might give it a try. Should I be able to get an i7 930 to maybe 3.2 GHz very easily? Do I still need to increase the vcore? Will it be stable?

Approximately how long does the overclocking process take?

I've heard that you can only increase your clock speed by "a few hundred Mhz at once" and if you try something like a 1 GHz overclock in one BIOS visit, your CPU will become extremely unstable and it will constantly crash. Or it could be damaged. Each time you increase your speed by let's say 200 MHz, you have to run a testing program like prime95 for several hours to test your overclock for stability. If your OC is unstable, your PC will crash, and you will have to go back to the BIOS and make more changes. This must make the overclocking process very long and frustrating.

You can only increase your clock speed in tiny increments of 100-200 MHz at one time to avoid damaging it, then test it for hours for stability, go back into the BIOS and repeat that process until you have your target clock speed. If you do a 1.2 GHz OC all at once, your CPU could be permanently damaged. Not to mention any warranty you may have being instantly voided the very second you make ANY change to the CPU, RAM, or GPU clock speeds.