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When America Loses a War, it does it in STYLE!

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Contrary to popular belief, America did not have a "military victory" in Vietnam.

Yes, we won all of the straight up battles, but what did you expect. we were better trained, better equiped, and bigger than 4'2". However, At no time did North Vietnam consider pursuing a peace and basically got prgressively stronger as the war moved along. If mission of the military in Vietnam had been clear, the commanders could have ensured a succesful outcome. That wasn't the case and we ended up just like the French (and everyone before them) - leaving meekly.
 
JL- Nixon was nop planning the use of nukes. The context was that they were an option. Just as they are in Afghanistan. Ok, this is how it went. Eisenhower warned Kennedy against the use of troops in Vietnam. Kennedy, as I said earlier, totally misunderstood what was happening. The VC weren't looking to take over the Phillipines or Thailand, their concerns were more local. The "domino effect" was never an issue in reality, but in perception it was. Kennedy escalated the efforts until he was assassinaed. Johnson, who was never meant to be president, found himself in a situation completely out of his depth. He contiued the effort and swelled troops to the highest level because.

1) at first he thought he could win.

2) Bobby Kennedy et al.


Johnson was a savvy political animal and the Kennedys were a force he did not want to cross. The Kennedys did not want JFK's vision of a communist free south asia to be ruined by some half witted Texan hack (no disrespect to Texans 🙂 ). So, acting on bad advice and self preservation, he increased numbers until it was clear that ironically, the US might just win. Now the fear here was that China might intercede in this case, and China certainly was unstoppable on the ground. They could mobilize millions of soldiers to march right in. That would leave us no choice but to surrender or nuke them. WWIII. LBJ wasn't a genius, but knew that was an untenable situation. So he was stuck. He could not withdraw, and he could not win. A stalemate of our own creation. This is why we had those silly rules of engagement. Worse for him, the anti war movement started in earnest. The forces opposed to the war were gaining strength. Now comes Nixon. He certainly did not want this can of worms. However with the presidency, comes the headaches of the previous administration. Nixon had something horrible happen that did finally force an end to the stay/go stalemate. Kent State. This really was the nail in the coffin for the war. At this time the tide turned so much against the war that Nixon had to find the "peace with honor" solution that was really a fancy surrender. At no time did Nixon seriously consider nuking Vietnam more than any other president. Also remember the war was practically over when he was forced from office, so that had no effect on the situation.
 


<< I'm gonna stick with Mcnamara's final view. He was the architect and knew the truth. >>




Moonbeam- Did you read Mcnamara's book? I found it most illuminating
 
No, Hayabusarider, I didn't. Seen him on tv in interviews and heard others talk about him. Anything you'd like to share about what 'Illuminating' means to you I'd be interested.
 
Moonbeam- McNamara was seen from anything from devil to ideal patriot (although some would argue there is not much difference there, depending on context). Nevertheless, it is interesting to read the perspective of such an influental figure.
 
No offence intended but I know from when I served in the forces that on the battlefield if any Americans came on the scene everyone dived for cover, friend and foe alike.

😀
 
"We Were Soldiers" is the best/most accurate depecition of the Vietnam War I've seen on film. It doesn't try to make some anti-war political statement; just tries to show it how the soldiers saw it. If you look at the end credits, you'll notice that Vietnamese loses were like 10 times that of American loses for that particular battle.
 
My .02

First of all we may have lost 50K+ soldiers there but how many did we loose here? What I mean is returning vets did not have it easy and some are still trying to cope with what happened. Most vets I know will not even speak to me about the war. My g/fs dad never goes into specifics but he did tell me that when they arrived they had to get their guns off dead bodies. One of my highschool teacher was a vet and we were not allowed to take flash photographs of him. A year before I got to his class a student did. He then had a flash back and started using his podeum as a turet (he was a gunner on a boat that used to patrol the rivers in Vietnam). They may have come back alive but they did not come back the same people. War can kill the spirt and mind as well as the body.

Second, the Vietnames are not people who should be fuct with. They are the ONLY civiliation to repel the Mongols. I would really encourage people to read about that. They had a strat that when a force came into the village they would split and head to the mountains. This is where they kept all their food anyways so the invaiding army would not have any food waiting for them. They would eventually leave. But the Mongols weren't ones to give up so easily. So the Vietnames late one night at low tide waded into a rive and set up spikes with metal tips. The next day when the tide was high they lured the Mongols throught the river. Then the Mongol ships got stuck and the Vietnames were in a higher position so they were shooting flaming arrows down upon them. When the Mongols surrendered instead of killing them (like what was usually done at the time) they sent the prisioners back to Kahn with a lot of money. They pretty much just told Kahn that they were sorry that they kicked their butts and they didn't enjoy it. They then asked that Khan stay away from Vietnam because they didn't want to have to do it again. In return they paid Khan a fee as well so everyone would save face.

Lastly if anyone wants a first hand account of the war from the Vietnames perspective I would recommend reading the "Sorrow of War".

End Rant:
 
[/i] >>

I hope you are kidding. We withdrew and South Vietnam fell to communism. How is that a victory? It was a huge loss for the US - politically, militarily and for ~60,000 families - personally.[/i] >>


Well said. A German could say that they really won the war (WWII) since they lost much less than the allies, and they had their political and social systems fail in those areas they wanted it to be in. Sounds like us in Vietnam...
 
It was NEVER about communism. It was about a regional conflict between sides that have been fighting for hundreds of years if not longer. It just happened that in this case the excuse for the battle was communism.

Yep, this is exactly true. This is the same case for Korea. If you have studied Asian Communism, you will know that there is much more Nationalism than Communism. Vietnamese just wanted their country for their own, without any foreign interference, and the US just butted its nose into their buisness. AND GOT THEIR ASSES WHOOPED ON.
 
i thought the estimate of total viet conn soldiers/civilians was 4 - 5 million?? not to count the peeps who died years after from agent orange
 


<< Second, the Vietnames are not people who should be fuct with. They are the ONLY civiliation to repel the Mongols. I would really encourage people to read about tha >>




The Japanese would kick your ass for saying that. the mongols invaded japan TWICE, never succeded. the first force of 50,000 met at the beach, without the usual fear showed to the mongols. fighting went on untill the korean made boats, with the mongols on them where blown away by a typhoon. they called it the "divine wind" supposedly that protects the island. also called KAMIKAZE. the mongols again invaded this time with about 150,000. again major battles took place and again japan was saved by the "divine wind" or KAMIKAZE.


the KAMIKAZE popped up agian in WW2 as pilots where supposed to take the place of the "divine wind" protecting the main land.


 
the reason for the conflict was when the mongul emperor asked the japanese to pay tribute, the way they had been to china. the japanese politly replied by cutting the heads off of the messengers and sending them back in baskets. remember that the mongul empire is easily the larget empire on earth and japan is quite small.
 
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