What's your opinion?

[Amol S.]

First off, I understand that it is my decision to make the final choice about the following, but I am just trying to gather a consensus about opinions.

If you folks don't know, I currently have a MS in Cyber Security, and have no work experience. So let me get to the point, about 2 weeks ago on LinkedIn, a HR personal asked me via PM if I was willing to get hired as a "Network Security Engineer". Nothing else in detail was said. I thought, sure of course why not, so I replied "Yes." As a week went by, I learned that this was a contracting firm looking for talents, to source to their clients. Although I find that to be worrisome, as I would rather have a non-contractual job, but what could I do as I a person with no work experience, obviously can't be a chooser. So let's get to the nitty gritty of what I am trying to get consensus on.

This week I learned that this company does 4 week training, before they comense on other more job related training:
Networking Technologies (Switches & Routers CCNA)
Fundamentals of Networking
Introduction to Cisco Products
Cisco Commands and their architecture.
Introduction to Switching
Introduction to Routing
Installation and Configuring Cisco Switches and Routers
Routing Protocols
ACL's, NAT concepts
Troubleshooting Concepts

Also apparently, there seems to have been a miscommunication somewhere, as the e-mail from the training and placement company personal (different company than the HR or talent seeker), stated that this was for "Network Engineer" not "Network Security Engineer". Although before the e-mail the personal did ask me if I had any work experience, and I did say "no". So it could be I am under qualified for that position. This is not any fake or small company as they are certified by ISO and many other organizations. Also, some of their clients are big companies like AT&T, IBM, ect.

LET ME CUT IT TO THE POINT. Basically I need to pass the CCNA to go further in the proccess, and I am not sure if one hour training sessions a day is enough for the CCNA. The training is being done over ZOOM. Now I might be over contemplating my self and maybe I could pass the CCNA. However, I did take a "Cisco Academy 101" course in college, and it was basically Net Acad for the old CCENT (Routing and Switching). It was like a nightmare, although it could be because I only took my first course in Computer Networking just the previous semester. On top of the exam, 70K for first 6 moths on job, then 75K next 6moths, after that if I stay 30% of my salary is theires for the 2nd years first 6 months and it decreases to 25% they take from my salary for the second half, and third year and onward, if I stay 20% is theirs. They say every 6 months they hike the salary.

On the other hand, I could turn down the offer and burn a potential bridge, and take a 14 WEEK IN-PERSON 4 HOURS M-Thr training course for (CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+, and Cloud+) for an out of pocket cost of $12K.

Which option is better?

 

[Kaido]

In a nutshell, businesses just need what I call "warm bodies", or people to fill positions to specifically do certain jobs. As long as you can actually do the work required, you're usually good to go. Certifications can help get you in the door, but being able to really actually do the job is far more important in most cases, in terms of hiring, because all requirements are negotiable (that's a key phrase I didn't learn to believe in until much later in my IT career). So the question isn't so much about certifications, as much as learning how to actually do the tasks required within the job. Let's start out with some basic prompting questions:

1. How fast do you learn?
2. Are you good at solving problems in the moment?
3. What's your 5-year career plan?
4. What's your overarching lifetime career plan? i.e. how much money do you want to make, what do you see yourself doing all day for work, when do you want to retire, are you pursuing FIRE, etc.

Also, if I understand things clearly:

1. You have a good job offer (congrats!)
2. They offer OJT
3. You need to pass the CCNA to get in there

Comparing that to a 14-week, 4-hours-a-day training course for $12,000 OOP....seems like CCNA is definitely the easier way to go!


Regarding studying:

If you simply need to pass the exam & don't have a solid study program in place already, I use a simple 2-phase study program:

1. Comprehension
2. Retention

Basically, you need to understand the material (the comprehension portion) & then remember the material (the retention portion), which are two separate tasks. I use a checklist for each task & then combine that with a study schedule. So the question here is, how fast do you learn & how soon do you need to have your CCNA completed by? Personally, I learn very slowly, but because I have a good study system, I can make solid progress in non-cramming timelines. If you're not in an uber-rush, then first I make a study schedule:

1. What's the breadth of the material you need to learn?
2. What's the deadline to learn it?
3. Based on your current schedule, how much do you need to study each day from the material to meet the deadline requirement?

Then in each study session, I start out with the comprehension checklist:

1. Make a mind-map of each section of material
2. Convert that to short notes

I basically do a quick scan through the material & start drawing out my mind-map bubbles (do a google-image search if you're not familiar with mind-mapping, it's a super easy tool to use), then do a second pass to pick up more information, then a third pass to get details, and write out Mario-style question-mark boxes for stuff I can't instantly figure out. Then I do a full reading & try to figure stuff out, and anything that still has a question mark are things I take to the Internet (AT, reddit, Youtube, google, etc.) to try to figure out. If I can't figure it out that way, then I reach out to knowledgeable friends IRL (especially thanks to Youtube explanations, this is rare these days). Once things "click", then I convert the mind-map into short notes (literally short sentences of notes).

For retention, I use this trick, which works awesome:

How to Memorize Anything | johnplaceonline.com

That's why converting your mind-map into short notes is required, so that you can use the memorization trick above. I've memorized whole chapters of stuff; the technique works just like the guy says. It is a skill & it is like a muscle, so the more you practice it, the better you'll get at it, and it does require a hefty time investment, but imo it's shorter in the time required than simply "trying really hard" to study.

One trick here is that if you only have to pass the CCNA exam & not really understand it, then you can get some practice tests & just memorize the information straight-up. Again, major time investment, but actually doing the right work for the job required (i.e. memorizing stuff) means it's actually a fairly efficient way of studying. So if you just need to pass it & the exam questions are standardized, you can bypass the comprehension portion & just do the memorization portion & zip right through it. I've had to do this for class/course/certification requirements that I have had to pass for requirement reasons, but don't actually need to understand, which sounds weird, but sometimes the requirement is to get that stamp of approval for something you'll never actually really use or need.

Anyway, if you're on a deadline & have to crunch your study time for the CCNA, those are some tricks I use for creating an effective studying path. May or may not be useful in your situation, but always nice to have some additional tools in your tool belt!

 

[deadlyapp]

Whatever you do - I wouldn't pay for any further "Training" because it likely will benefit you far less than trying to network and find a job.

I shudder at the thought of having my salary pulled from me in such a contractor type arrangement, but for you, with almost nothing to lose (since you have zero experience) this may be necessary. Just be careful about any contract documents you might sign that require you to stay a certain amount of time, a non-compete type agreement, or any reimbursement of training costs.

If you are concerned about passing the CCNA with limited training/teaching on it (which I suspect you are of the mindset that more learning is most beneficial based on your background) - then try to find a supplemental training you can do for cheap on the side of the training you are already doing with them.

 

[Amol S.]

So the question isn't so much about certifications, as much as learning how to actually do the tasks required within the job. Let's start out with some basic prompting questions:

1. How fast do you learn?
2. Are you good at solving problems in the moment?
3. What's your 5-year career plan?
4. What's your overarching lifetime career plan? i.e. how much money do you want to make, what do you see yourself doing all day for work, when do you want to retire, are you pursuing FIRE, etc.

First, I am not hired yet. This is a talent recruiting company, almost like a company that first trains people, then advertises the people who they train to their client partners, who then actually hire the people for the job, but via a contract. So basically, I am not hired yet.

1. Slow.
2. Problem solving....... I am having trouble answering this at the moment. Let me answer the other two that are easy and get back to this one.
Back to this question..... sometimes, and sometimes not. Give me a good example of a problem you have in mind.
3. If I accept this thing, I know that I would start of from Network Engineer, (the person on LinkedIn asked me for Network Security Engineer, so I have to still ask and find out if there was a miscommunication, or the decision was changed). From there Sys Admin or Network Security Engineer, not sure. But I do know in 3 to 7 years I want to be a Cyber Analyst.
4. CISO

 

[Scarpozzi]

Talent recruiting companies are head hunters. They get paid a small commission for providing staff to the jobs....that's all. At the end of the day, many of them like to keep a rolodex of people and a rolodex of HR hiring managers so they can do repeat connects as people in larger markets shuffle around.

That may be a good way to get your foot in the door somewhere to get experience. If you get a position as a Sys Admin or Network Admin it's only a hop skip and jump to Security Analysis. You may be expected to use those skills to help protect a Datacenter or NOC.

My bro-in-law used head hunters fairly frequently, but most of the jobs he landed were 2 year contract positions that had high salaries and crap benefits. You may do better for longevity if you seek out the companies first and monitor their open positions frequently. I live in a small enough market that it's pretty easy to search the top 10 employers frequently... Larger cities, you have much more to choose from, as long as the job market isn't shrinking.

 

[Amol S.]

Something probably skipped my mind for the past 2 weeks, I just don't know how I only realised this now. Is Network Engineering a very labourous job that requires lifiting things 50lb+ by one self?

 

[Red Squirrel]

In some cases you may need to lift heavy routers/switches (Like say a Catalyst 6500) but this is not going to be an every day occurrence so I would not sweat it. In fact those types of deployments usually involve more people so it's rare you will need to do it alone. As a network engineer you might not even be that much involved in physical installation.

As for certs, it's nothing but a money grab and does not really tell anything about your ability. In the real world you have access to documentation and other resources to help you if you are not sure about something, and hands on stuff is easier than theory. Unfortunately lot of companies still require the certs. The part that sucks is they expire so you need to keep doing them.

I've thought of getting some in the past just to have them under my belt, and I probably should have at least got the ComptTIA ones before they put expiry dates, but I just never bothered. Can't say it's ever stopped me from getting a job though. Now it would be pointless unless I was actively looking for a job in the next 3 years before it expires.

 

[ultimatebob]

Does it bother anyone else how the IT industry is now focusing on certificates instead of actual experience when hiring now? We're ending up with new hires who are book smart but aren't actually able to troubleshoot and solve problems. Hell... even the training courses seem to be more worried about you passing the certification exam at the end than actually learning how the product works and how to use it.

 

[Amol S.]

Does it bother anyone else how the IT industry is now focusing on certificates instead of actual experience when hiring now? We're ending up with new hires who are book smart but aren't actually able to troubleshoot and solve problems. Hell... even the training courses seem to be more worried about you passing the certification exam at the end than actually learning how the product works and how to use it.

That's what happens when HR asks for absurd requirements in internship descriptions. Not many can get an internship in Cyber Security. For those wanting to actually be able to get a good internship, after not being able to secure one when doing a BS or MS, you need to get a BA. You can't expect every one to afford a third degree in "BA Accounting", just to get business related internship promotions to "Internal Information Technology Auditor". "Internal Information Technology Auditor" is one the very few internships where some big companies give you a choice as to whether CS related cert or BA related Cert (like CPA) as a requirement. CPA is a different story and not bookwormish. That's what happens. Almost every BS/MS Cyber internship now is stating, "big plus for CISSP" or even "CISSP required", I am a living example of the implausibility of that. Unless you are from MIT, NYU, Texas A&M, or Caimbridge University (in UK), the likely hood of getting a good Cyber Security internship-to-hire or regular internship is quite slim. Even more absurd is now they are asking for double majors in CS and BA.

 

[ViviTheMage]

Does it bother anyone else how the IT industry is now focusing on certificates instead of actual experience when hiring now? We're ending up with new hires who are book smart but aren't actually able to troubleshoot and solve problems. Hell... even the training courses seem to be more worried about you passing the certification exam at the end than actually learning how the product works and how to use it.

I have always said you can't teach troubleshooting. But some larger companies just need warm bodies to copy and paste scripts engineers create after a grueling change management process.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Now days they just make the requirements near impossible, that way they can show that they tried, and then just hire a TFW at half the salary.