What's wrong with Price Capping the price of gasoline?

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
3
81
What's wrong with a price cap on the price of gasoline consumers pay at the pump? I'm specifically referring to a price cap that would be based on the price of a barrel of oil in the markets.

Why doesn't scheme work? As long as the price cap is reasonable it shouldn't hurt the oil companies. It may give less incentive to purchase a more gas efficient car, but people wouldn't avoid them just because gas is capped. Alternative energy wouldn't get hurt since there will still be just as much research being put into them.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
If the govt caps the price and the oil companies stop making a profit, why would they sell their product in our market? You may make the situation worse by drying up the supply.


 

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
3
81
Originally posted by: Genx87
If the govt caps the price and the oil companies stop making a profit, why would they sell their product in our market? You may make the situation worse by drying up the supply.

It's pretty obvious the oil companies are making a pretty rediculous amount of profit, so I'm sure there exists a price cap that wouldn't make them lose that much profit, but would help the consumers more.

I'm not saying for a price cap that would bankrupt the companies, that's pretty stupid in general. I'm asking about a price cap that helps the consumers while still making oil profitable... (like it always will be).
 

astrosfan90

Golden Member
Mar 17, 2005
1,156
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
If the govt caps the price and the oil companies stop making a profit, why would they sell their product in our market? You may make the situation worse by drying up the supply.

Was going to say the same thing. Capping price puts the equilibrium below demand, leading to potential shortages.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: sunzt
Originally posted by: Genx87
If the govt caps the price and the oil companies stop making a profit, why would they sell their product in our market? You may make the situation worse by drying up the supply.

It's pretty obvious the oil companies are making a pretty rediculous amount of profit, so I'm sure there exists a price cap that wouldn't make them lose that much profit, but would help the consumers more.

I'm not saying for a price cap that would bankrupt the companies, that's pretty stupid in general. I'm asking about a price cap that helps the consumers while still making oil profitable... (like it always will be).

On a raw dollar basis it looks ridiculous, but look at the % of sales it is not out of line. 9-10% is not raping the consumer in any way form. I believe a company like Nvidia and Intel are in the 15-20% profit range.

Your idea of profitable will most like differ from the stockholders of the company. When they see they can achieve the same profit marging of 10% selling in Europe they will do that instead of taking a 5% profit margin here.



 

astrosfan90

Golden Member
Mar 17, 2005
1,156
0
0
Originally posted by: sunzt
Originally posted by: Genx87
If the govt caps the price and the oil companies stop making a profit, why would they sell their product in our market? You may make the situation worse by drying up the supply.

It's pretty obvious the oil companies are making a pretty rediculous amount of profit, so I'm sure there exists a price cap that wouldn't make them lose that much profit, but would help the consumers more.

I'm not saying for a price cap that would bankrupt the companies, that's pretty stupid in general. I'm asking about a price cap that helps the consumers while still making oil profitable... (like it always will be).

Let me argue this for a moment. I don't deny for a second that oil companies make money. I have family in the oil business, so I know it's the truth.

But keep in mind that not all oil is created equal, and not all wells are created equal.

Say, for instance, that you have two wells of equal size. One is in Russia, one is in the ME. Let's ignore for simplicity's sake the fact that the oil from the ME is likely to be of higher quality, and thusly less expensive to convert into gasoline, and focus on extraction.

In Russia, the well is under miles of rock that requires tough drilling and makes extraction very difficult. In the ME well, you're going through lighter rock to a well that's not nearly as deep. Factor in the fact that your ME country typically is an easy place to do business--they're typically friendly to Western business given the fact that oil revenues drive their economies, and as such they don't hamper your business much at all. Russia, on the other hand, isn't quite as straightforward. Where in the ME you have a direct top-down dictatorship calling the shots that you can do business with, in Russia you have several powers to deal with--the oligarchs, the country leadership, and the mafia. All have a lot of power, all have their own interests, and all have their own reasons for not wanting a foreign company to be making out like bandits on their country's oil.

I don't recall the exact numbers, but after speaking with someone who works at a Western oil company's office in Russia, I was given a fairly impressive figure. It was along the lines of "a barrel of oil from the ME turns a $2.00 profit per barrel. From Russia, we're lucky to squeeze out 25 cents."

Okay, so the ME oil is better quality, cheaper to process, and cheaper to extract. I'd wager it's cheaper to transport, too, since you have quick access to a port, as opposed to Russia, where you're going to have to transit thousands of miles of pipelines to get your oil to a boat.


So what happens when stuff starts to hit the fan in the ME? Local companies get nervous, some pull out, others are forced to pay their employees more to offset the risks, perhaps local unrest makes business difficult (carbombed office, pipeline sabotage, kidnapping of executives, etc). All of these things whittle away at that profit margin, and suddenly your ME oil isn't making any more than your Russian oil. Profits have to come from somewhere and if your profits were just cut by 6/8 overnight, you're going to raise prices to soften the impact on your bottom line.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Genx87
On a raw dollar basis it looks ridiculous, but look at the % of sales it is not out of line. 9-10% is not raping the consumer in any way form. I believe a company like Nvidia and Intel are in the 15-20% profit range.

Your idea of profitable will most like differ from the stockholders of the company. When they see they can achieve the same profit marging of 10% selling in Europe they will do that instead of taking a 5% profit margin here.

Bingo. Oil companies are not really more profitable, in the relative sense, than they were at any other point in history. They are marginally so, but that is mostly due to operational costs not scaling with oil barrel/gas costs (it doesn't take more to sell a $70 barrel of oil than it does to sell a $60 one). Any company that makes more from the same unit will realize operational scaling efficiencies, that is the nature of any business.

Caping gas would be a huge mistake. People who don't need it will still be able to buy it at cheap rates, potentially squeezing out those who do need it. If the situation gets worse and their are shortages, then essential users will be locked out of the market and further distortions will be seen.

This was clear during post-hurricane capping. If generators were capped at $500, then non-essential people would buy them. If they were uncapped and cost $1000, those people would not buy them, but essential businesses could absorb their cost and provide services.

If billy bob in his Excursion took all of the gas that the delivery truck needed because it was still cheap, then the economy loses because the delivery truck can't keep it's business going, but Billy Bob can still go pick his 1 kid up from soccer practice. Which is more important?

 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
Originally posted by: sunzt
Originally posted by: Genx87
If the govt caps the price and the oil companies stop making a profit, why would they sell their product in our market? You may make the situation worse by drying up the supply.

It's pretty obvious the oil companies are making a pretty rediculous amount of profit, so I'm sure there exists a price cap that wouldn't make them lose that much profit, but would help the consumers more.

I'm not saying for a price cap that would bankrupt the companies, that's pretty stupid in general. I'm asking about a price cap that helps the consumers while still making oil profitable... (like it always will be).

Their margins are less than half of that of banking and drugs.
 

astrosfan90

Golden Member
Mar 17, 2005
1,156
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Genx87
On a raw dollar basis it looks ridiculous, but look at the % of sales it is not out of line. 9-10% is not raping the consumer in any way form. I believe a company like Nvidia and Intel are in the 15-20% profit range.

Your idea of profitable will most like differ from the stockholders of the company. When they see they can achieve the same profit marging of 10% selling in Europe they will do that instead of taking a 5% profit margin here.

Bingo. Oil companies are not really more profitable, in the relative sense, than they were at any other point in history. They are marginally so, but that is mostly due to operational costs not scaling with oil barrel/gas costs (it doesn't take more to sell a $70 barrel of oil than it does to sell a $60 one). Any company that makes more from the same unit will realize operational scaling efficiencies, that is the nature of any business.

Caping gas would be a huge mistake. People who don't need it will still be able to buy it at cheap rates, potentially squeezing out those who do need it. If the situation gets worse and their are shortages, then essential users will be locked out of the market and further distortions will be seen.

This was clear during post-hurricane capping. If generators were capped at $500, then non-essential people would buy them. If they were uncapped and cost $1000, those people would not buy them, but essential businesses could absorb their cost and provide services.

If billy bob in his Excursion took all of the gas that the delivery truck needed because it was still cheap, then the economy loses because the delivery truck can't keep it's business going, but Billy Bob can still go pick his 1 kid up from soccer practice. Which is more important?


Good post.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Compared to fuel costs in other nations, America has always had it cheap. When I lived in Germany, fuel costs were at least twice those of what they were in America at the time. And guess what. Higher fuel costs tend to change behavioral patterns.

You don't see many Europeans driving large cumbersome SUVs...the humble station wagon serves the function of family transport just fine.

Higher fuel costs will compel people to utilize public transportation more often, or think twice about taking unnecessary trips. More people will seek carpooling as an option, which will reduce congestion on our roads and highways. Similarly, rising fuel costs will create demand for alternative or more fuel efficient cars, which are better for the environment and will reduce our dependency on oil.

I see rising fuel costs as nothing but a good thing. I am willing to pay a bit more now if it will shift our nation's gluttonous fossil fuel consumption culture.
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,446
214
106
Read up on price controls of the 70's and what it did lots of oil and gas in the world but none for sale in the US cause it was more profitable to sell it elsewhere which is why they had all the line-ups in the 70's at gas stations.
 

huberm

Golden Member
Dec 17, 2004
1,105
1
0
the oil industry is a global marketplace. If the United States were to put caps on prices, why would they want to sell it in the US? They could easily make more money where the price and demand were higher.
 

Accipiter22

Banned
Feb 11, 2005
7,942
2
0
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Compared to fuel costs in other nations, America has always had it cheap. When I lived in Germany, fuel costs were at least twice those of what they were in America at the time. And guess what. Higher fuel costs tend to change behavioral patterns.

You don't see many Europeans driving large cumbersome SUVs...the humble station wagon serves the function of family transport just fine.

Higher fuel costs will compel people to utilize public transportation more often, or think twice about taking unnecessary trips. More people will seek carpooling as an option, which will reduce congestion on our roads and highways. Similarly, rising fuel costs will create demand for alternative or more fuel efficient cars, which are better for the environment and will reduce our dependency on oil.

I see rising fuel costs as nothing but a good thing. I am willing to pay a bit more now if it will shift our nation's gluttonous fossil fuel consumption culture.


we don't HAVE public transportation on the level germany/europe/england has. Their cities are almost entirely more compact, and the population density is exponentially higher than ours. Your average trip to work is like 3 miles. ours is probably more like 20.
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,512
2
81
Originally posted by: huberm
the oil industry is a global marketplace. If the United States were to put caps on prices, why would they want to sell it in the US? They could easily make more money where the price and demand were higher.

 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
we don't HAVE public transportation on the level germany/europe/england has. Their cities are almost entirely more compact, and the population density is exponentially higher than ours. Your average trip to work is like 3 miles. ours is probably more like 20.
Not entirely true. Most American cities, particularly in the Northeast, have a fairly robust public transportation system.

Sure, America has suburban sprawl, and rural areas will probably always depend on personal transportation...but it doesn't mean that Americans can't stand to be a bit more efficient in their transportation decisions.

 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Accipiter22
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Compared to fuel costs in other nations, America has always had it cheap. When I lived in Germany, fuel costs were at least twice those of what they were in America at the time. And guess what. Higher fuel costs tend to change behavioral patterns.

You don't see many Europeans driving large cumbersome SUVs...the humble station wagon serves the function of family transport just fine.

Higher fuel costs will compel people to utilize public transportation more often, or think twice about taking unnecessary trips. More people will seek carpooling as an option, which will reduce congestion on our roads and highways. Similarly, rising fuel costs will create demand for alternative or more fuel efficient cars, which are better for the environment and will reduce our dependency on oil.

I see rising fuel costs as nothing but a good thing. I am willing to pay a bit more now if it will shift our nation's gluttonous fossil fuel consumption culture.


we don't HAVE public transportation on the level germany/europe/england has. Their cities are almost entirely more compact, and the population density is exponentially higher than ours. Your average trip to work is like 3 miles. ours is probably more like 20.

Do you think the public transportation systems magically appeared as a result of them wanting to not own their own vehicle, or was it out of neccessity?

 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
If the govt caps the price and the oil companies stop making a profit, why would they sell their product in our market? You may make the situation worse by drying up the supply.

ding ding ding
See gas shortages in 70s also
 

robphelan

Diamond Member
Aug 28, 2003
4,084
17
81
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
we don't HAVE public transportation on the level germany/europe/england has. Their cities are almost entirely more compact, and the population density is exponentially higher than ours. Your average trip to work is like 3 miles. ours is probably more like 20.
Not entirely true. Most American cities, particularly in the Northeast, have a fairly robust public transportation system.

Sure, America has suburban sprawl, and rural areas will probably always depend on personal transportation...but it doesn't mean that Americans can't stand to be a bit more efficient in their transportation decisions.


San Antonio is the 8th or 9th largest city in the country and our public transp. system is terrible. all we have is 1 big bus company. no light rail, no subways, nothing.

i believe it's a function of the sprawl of the city. if you're compacted one on top of the other, as in many NE cities, mass transit was a necessity.

down here, we have plenty of land to build sideways, so those types of public transportation were not feasible.
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,216
1
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Lets also not forget that, like tobacco, the government makes more on gas and oil than the oil companies do.

Link

Capping prices would require them to also cap their own revenues. And we all know that the thought of putting a cap on government revenues, regardless of the source, is sacrilege...
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Capping or setting a price is what dictators do.

The idea of taking a windfall tax and building govt owned and run refineries to compete against the private Companies that are not competing is the best way to go.

When it comes to the big boy money the only way to their brain is through their pocket.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Capping or setting a price is what dictators do.

The idea of taking a windfall tax and building govt owned and run refineries to compete against the private Companies that are not competing is the best way to go.

When it comes to the big boy money the only way to their brain is through their pocket.

Yes because Socialism never leads to dictatorships does it?
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Utilities were capped for many years and they still made profits and expanded. Gas/oil would do the same thing. There is no way in hell that they would abandon the largest (or second largest) market on the planet? Yeah, that makes sense. Your doom and gloom scenarios are ridiculous.

If caps went into place, one thing would be assured, they oil industry would find a way to cut refining costs in a hurry to lower prices once again and get those caps removed.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Utilities were capped for many years and they still made profits and expanded. Gas/oil would do the same thing. There is no way in hell that they would abandon the largest (or second largest) market on the planet? Yeah, that makes sense. Your doom and gloom scenarios are ridiculous.

If caps went into place, one thing would be assured, they oil industry would find a way to cut refining costs in a hurry to lower prices once again and get those caps removed.

They did in 70s, why wouldnt they now? China I am sure has no problem sucking up any excess we dont use.

And utilities and oil are an apples and oranges comparison. Oil is on the global market, local utilities are not.