people are weird. i don't know though; when i was researching parts for my computer, i read that Asus was the best. so i baught Asus. do i think that every other company is crap? nope. but i'll stay with Asus cause i care about reliability and perfromance. i have also never owned an ATI card or and Intel CPU.
- Aug 20, 2005
- 2,685
- 11
- 81
My example on the output/litre is based on your average car. Not special models (i.e. srt-4) It was my bad to say show me "a" car. I meant in the general sense. My bad...
http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/10/26/cr_...able/index.html?section=cnn_topstories
http://money.cnn.com/popups/2006/autos/reliable/2.html
http://www.forbes.com/vehicles/2006/04/...-vehicles-japanese_cx_dl_0424feat.html
I AM NOT BASHING AERICAN CARS. Don't get all defensive about it, do your hw and see the truth. My cousin owns a chain of repair shops and says its fairly obvious that american cars are more problematic than japanese. The japanse cars are harder to fix when they do break however.
I'd love to buy an american truck, but i've owned a tundra and everyone of my friends owned american trucks... they all admitted that the little things that break on the american trucks are what aer making them consider foreign. THIS is what i'jm talkin about. If you're not getting quality, i don't think its the best idea to get a brand just b/c you like the brand.
I am not blindly brand loyal, yes american cars are improving, but they're still way off the mark:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/10/26/cr_...able/index.html?section=cnn_topstories
http://money.cnn.com/popups/2006/autos/reliable/2.html
http://www.forbes.com/vehicles/2006/04/...-vehicles-japanese_cx_dl_0424feat.html
I AM NOT BASHING AERICAN CARS. Don't get all defensive about it, do your hw and see the truth. My cousin owns a chain of repair shops and says its fairly obvious that american cars are more problematic than japanese. The japanse cars are harder to fix when they do break however.
I'd love to buy an american truck, but i've owned a tundra and everyone of my friends owned american trucks... they all admitted that the little things that break on the american trucks are what aer making them consider foreign. THIS is what i'jm talkin about. If you're not getting quality, i don't think its the best idea to get a brand just b/c you like the brand.
- Aug 20, 2005
- 2,685
- 11
- 81
No, i'm saying that the more efficeint engine will LIKELY be the better option given other things equal.
2 motors:
1: 200 c/i 3liter 200hp, 200tq 28mpg
2: 170 c/i 2.5liter 200hp, 200tq 30mpg
Similar torque/hp curves... assuming you keep everything stock, which would you choose?
2 motors:
1: 200 c/i 3liter 200hp, 200tq 28mpg
2: 170 c/i 2.5liter 200hp, 200tq 30mpg
Similar torque/hp curves... assuming you keep everything stock, which would you choose?
The bigger engine would probably get better gas mileage and run on lower octane fuel. Carmakers CHOOSE the horsepower output of their motors.
For AMD, it boils down to 3 words...
Cost per performance.
Sure, the core 2 duo is fast, but it's also more expensive. I can get "good enough" performance from an AthlonX2 and don't have to pay an Intel premium.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
Please tell me of a single 2.5L that gets 200hp/200tq and 30mpg with a similar torque curve as a comparable 3.0L. FYI: the Camry's 2.4L makes 158bhp and gets 24/34. The Civic Si's 2.0L might make 197bhp and get 23/32, but its torque curve is outrageously peaky, maxing out at only 139 ft-lbs. Short of forced induction, you'll find that type of power output similar for that size displacement.
I don't think you understand engine design.
- Oct 28, 1999
- 62,484
- 8,345
- 126
Only thing I can think of is a 2.5L I6. Torque curve would be there, milage would be there, output would be off. It's around 185/175.
The 2.5L I4 in the Altima pulls milage around 26/34 and puts out 175/180. A little more peaky power band than the I6 though.
dennilfloss
Past Lifer 1957-2014 In Memoriam
Brand loyalty allows for smaller competitors to stay in business and that benefits everyone.
Go AMD!!
Go AMD!!
If you did not have such "blind loyalty" yourself you would see that CR "surveys" are heavily none scientific. They ONLY pole those that subscribe from their magazine. They break the first rule of a good, let alone scientific, survey model. Your sample group must be random and everybody must have a equal chance as the next person of getting picked. It does not take a genius to see why their results say the same thing over and over.
And if you knew what you were talking about, you would know the average American car has a higher reliability then the average Japanese car. Now that?s average of ALL car companies. That does not compare X brand to Y. Let alone you are grouping the WHOLE segment against another which is flawed itself. Its like saying my Corvette has had very little problems so that must mean all American cars have very little problems.
I've been reversed on the cars lately, compared to how I used to think. I used to go for the "Buy whatever is best, it's capitalism!" But that was under the ignorant assumption that all American cars were crap, all imports were essentially superior, and the domestics needed a wakeup call to turn out their best.
However, I've learned in first hand experience that there's a fair selection out there of good American cars. Right up there with their import rivals, and a better value in many cases. It's one thing to dismiss a product because it is crap, and you know that. It's another thing to dismiss a product because it's perceived to be crap simply because of the brand. The big three are cutting jobs left and right, which has a huge ripple effect on the economy. We might be moving toward a global economy, but we're not all the way there yet. Laughing off a good American car just because it's American doesn't do anything except hurt us.
I still completely support buying what's good over buying for patriotism or brand loyalty, but the way I see it, look at it by the product, not the brand as a whole. If the Chevy Aveo sucks, don't buy it. GM will learn pretty quickly that it sucks and they'll change it to compete. Don't use the Aveo as a reason to dismiss the new trucks, Malibu, Impala, Camaro, etc. If they're good products, they deserve to be recognized for it, and GM deserves the sales for making something competitive.
However, I've learned in first hand experience that there's a fair selection out there of good American cars. Right up there with their import rivals, and a better value in many cases. It's one thing to dismiss a product because it is crap, and you know that. It's another thing to dismiss a product because it's perceived to be crap simply because of the brand. The big three are cutting jobs left and right, which has a huge ripple effect on the economy. We might be moving toward a global economy, but we're not all the way there yet. Laughing off a good American car just because it's American doesn't do anything except hurt us.
I still completely support buying what's good over buying for patriotism or brand loyalty, but the way I see it, look at it by the product, not the brand as a whole. If the Chevy Aveo sucks, don't buy it. GM will learn pretty quickly that it sucks and they'll change it to compete. Don't use the Aveo as a reason to dismiss the new trucks, Malibu, Impala, Camaro, etc. If they're good products, they deserve to be recognized for it, and GM deserves the sales for making something competitive.
- Aug 20, 2005
- 2,685
- 11
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Then support your argument against mine - just telling me wrong when i've given examples as to why i feel a certain way wont change my mind. Show me where you've gotten your information and it might understand why you're right and i'm wrong.
Like i said, i WANT to buy american... but, in so far as the cars i've been interested in, the imports have had the more reliable option.
Again you keep referencing CR which is flawed. Its so flawed only those that are heavily biased, or to dumb to know, use it as a measuring metric.
If you look at the JD Powers list of American and Japanese vehicles here...
http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/23/Autos/american_cars/jd_power_2005.gif
That the majority of cars above average are American while the majority of those below, in fact the bottom 5+, are Japanese.
- Aug 20, 2005
- 2,685
- 11
- 81
Hahahaha.... did you just use JD power to give reliability ratings? They are not only biased based on advertising revenue, but the IQS that everyone seems to go by is only at 90days and 3 years.
http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/jdpower.php
CR may not be totally representative, but they're unbiased at least.
But.. here are some non-CR companies that support their findings
http://www.automotoportal.com/article/You_cant_beat_Japanese_car_reliability
http://www.fivecentnickel.com/2006/11/16/ten-most-reliable-cars/
Mixed from CR AND JDP
http://autos.aol.com/article/general/v2...-reliable-of-2006/20060502102909990002
http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/jdpower.php
CR may not be totally representative, but they're unbiased at least.
But.. here are some non-CR companies that support their findings
http://www.automotoportal.com/article/You_cant_beat_Japanese_car_reliability
http://www.fivecentnickel.com/2006/11/16/ten-most-reliable-cars/
Mixed from CR AND JDP
http://autos.aol.com/article/general/v2...-reliable-of-2006/20060502102909990002
Ktulu
Diamond Member
- Dec 16, 2000
- 4,354
- 0
- 0
You do realize that in one link they claim that the Jaguar X-type is the most reliable non-Japanese car while in the other they claim it is one of the worst.
Great sources!!!!!!
Oh and the second link is nothing more than regurgitation of the CR findings.
I thought I would add this.
----------------------------
Ford and General Motors have taken turns besting the Toyota Camry in quality surveys for the past two years, but if you talk to many Americans - especially the ones who would never consider supporting home-based auto companies - you?d never know it.
Last year, the Chevrolet Impala beat the Toyota Camry in initial quality according to J.D. Power & Associates, and Consumer Reports just announced that both the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan scored higher than both the Toyota Camry and the Honda Accord this year.
After the announcement, Ford?s Director of Global Quality Debbe Yeager commented ?It?s a perception gap,? referring to the struggle American companies have had overcoming the perceived and seemingly untarnishable reputation of their foreign rivals.
Even as GM and Ford have accumulated award after award on vehicle quality, you?d almost never know about such quality gains made by American companies - or quality declines of foreign companies - by listening to the media. Did you hear about it when the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration announced that Toyota recalled more vehicles than it sold in the U.S. last year? Probably not. Did you hear about Toyota making an ?elaborate apology? for their ?worrisome series of recalls? that has ?tarnished its reputation for quality?? Probably not. Did you hear about the Toyota senior manager quote that stated ?We used to do quiet recalls called ?service campaigns? to deal with defects but we?re not going to hide anything anymore?? Such a statement suggests Toyota?s past recall numbers were probably much higher than we were led to believe, and they profited handsomely by having a perception of higher quality than they deserved. In Japan, prosecutors are looking into possible negligence on the part of Toyota for shirking recalls for the last eight years. How ironic. You probably didn?t hear about that one either because the American media doesn?t like to bash foreign auto companies ? only American ones.
Then there?s the mythical perception that foreign automakers produce the most fuel efficient cars and that Detroit only makes gas-guzzlers when the truth is that all automakers - including Toyota, Honda and Hyundai-Kia alike ? have allowed fuel economy to slide in the past 20 years since they all now sell bigger trucks and more SUVs. One of Toyota?s senior executives was even quoted in the Wall St. Journal September 28 saying that both the Toyota Sequoia and Tundra ?are big gas-guzzling vehicles? and expressed ?concern about the longer-term prospects.? These longer-term prospects about their admitted gas-guzzlers are questioned because they know that Ford?s F-150 and Chevy?s Silverado have led the pack in sales year after year.
Yes, gasoline has been getting more expensive ? at least until recently ? but the fact that Americans continue to buy it in greater quantities qualifies us as hypocrites for suggesting GM and Ford stop building so many big trucks and SUVs. After all, GM and Ford are only responding to demand as any company would and should if they want to remain profitable in a cut-throat competitive market. According to a Business Week survey, we Americans bought 10% more gasoline in the first six months of 2006 compared to the first six months of 2000 even though gas prices rose 75% in that period. Maybe here I could also mention that the Chevy Tahoe beat the gas-guzzling Toyota Sequoia in quality surveys and gets better gas mileage to boot.
But what has happened since gas prices have been on the decline in recent months? The Wall Street Journal reported a ?slight? increase in truck sales by American companies, as Ford Expedition sales were up 41% and Lincoln Navigator sales were up 44%. The American media even tries to restrain its applause for home-based auto companies by referring to gains of over 40% as ?slight!?
Perhaps the biggest perception problem is that American automobile companies GM and Ford (Chrysler is now German-owned) squander all their money on plants overseas and foreign automakers build their factories in the U.S. Foreign car lovers will surely point to Kia?s plans to build its first-ever U.S. plant in Georgia, but they probably won?t mention that they received $400 million in tax giveaways to do it, which translates into $160,000 per job. Among the many benefits for the foreign-owned company, your tax dollars are going to be used for road improvements surrounding the complex, complete with flower beds and other beautification features. Hey, as long as we?re going to allow states to bid for private jobs with our public tax dollars, we might as well make it look good, right?
And the foreign car lovers will probably also not tell you (or maybe they just don?t know or don?t want you to know) that GM and Ford pour more money into existing American facilities than foreign automakers spend on new plants, usually with little or no tax breaks. GM has already spent over $500 million upgrading two transmission plants this year, and has spent nearly a billion dollars over the last decade, for example, for facility upgrades in Texas. And what do GM and Ford get for making their existing plants more efficient? It isn?t tax breaks. Instead, they get accusations of not being ?competitive? enough! Maybe here I should also mention that the average domestic parts content for Kia is 3%, while the average domestic parts content of Ford and GM is 78% and 74% respectively. This means that buying a U.S.-assembled (or even foreign-assembled, for that matter) GM or Ford supports more American jobs than a U.S.-assembled car or truck with a foreign nameplate.
Fortunately for our benefit, the U.S. remains the overall global leader in research and development, and a big reason for that is that American automakers ? according to the Level Field Institute ? invest $16 billion in R&D (Research & Development) annually, which outpaces any other industry one could name. Admittedly, the Level Field Institute counts German-owned DaimlerChrysler as an American automaker, so Ford and GM?s combined R&D contribution to America is closer to around $12 billion. But who?s counting, right? Certainly not the American auto-bashing media.
Japanese companies do employ 3,600 American workers in R&D, but that still leaves the foreign competition behind in the dust staring at American rear bumpers. 3,600 sounds like a big number until you realize that 65,000 Americans work in R&D facilities in the state of Michigan alone. In fact, two of the top four R&D spending companies in America as reported by the Wall Street Journal are ? you guessed it ? Ford and General Motors. The other two are also American companies: Pfizer and Microsoft.
Ford has recently made headlines as the American automaker with the most challenges to its future, but these challenges certainly are not because they ?aren?t making cars people want to buy.? Toyota did outsell Ford in July, but since then, Ford has reclaimed the No. 2 spot and has held it ever since. GM has the highest market share, increasing over 2 percentage points from a year ago. So apparently they can?t be accused of not making cars people want to buy either. Ford sales are also up in Europe, and Ford doubled their sales in China, where GM has the highest market share of any automaker.
General Motors also reported a 3.9% rise in August vehicle sales despite high gas prices and a supposedly slowing economy. And even though Toyota reported record sales that month, they couldn?t match the non-record setting sales volume of Ford. GM?s sales rose 17% in October from the same month in 2005 and Ford sales rose 8% in the same period. Ford also sits on $23 billion in cash, so they have plenty of money to focus on and fix any problems.
And for all the talk about the lack of fuel efficiency of American automakers, it seems three-fourths of all automakers failed to meet Europe?s improved fuel-efficiency standards intended to cut carbon-dioxide emissions. Japanese and German automakers topped the list of the study?s worst performers, but according to an environmental group?s study, GM?s Opel division and Ford both ?come out well.?
In closing, I?ll leave some encouraging numbers for those of us who actually like to root for and support the home team. The J.D. Power 2006 Vehicle Dependability Survey reports that Mercury, Buick and Cadillac (in that order) grabbed the number 2, 3 and 4 spots to beat Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW and everyone else (except Lexus) in having the least number of problems per 100 vehicles.
Perhaps someday the American media will give GM and Ford the credit they deserve. And once they do, perception among the majority of the American public will rightfully change. GM and Ford aren?t only doing what they should to make gains in the American market to deserve American consumer loyalty; they?re also doing what they should to make gains in the markets of China, Europe and across most of the rest of the globe.
Roger Simmermaker is the author of ?How Americans Can Buy American: The Power of Consumer Patriotism.? He also writes ?Buy American Mention of the Week? articles for his website http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/ and is a member of the Machinists Union and National Writers Union. Roger has been a frequent guest on the Fox News Channel, CNN and MSNBC and has been quoted in the USA Today, Wall Street Journal and US News & World Report among many other publications.
Roger Simmermaker, Author
How Americans Can Buy American
www.howtobuyamerican.com
----------------------------
Ford and General Motors have taken turns besting the Toyota Camry in quality surveys for the past two years, but if you talk to many Americans - especially the ones who would never consider supporting home-based auto companies - you?d never know it.
Last year, the Chevrolet Impala beat the Toyota Camry in initial quality according to J.D. Power & Associates, and Consumer Reports just announced that both the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan scored higher than both the Toyota Camry and the Honda Accord this year.
After the announcement, Ford?s Director of Global Quality Debbe Yeager commented ?It?s a perception gap,? referring to the struggle American companies have had overcoming the perceived and seemingly untarnishable reputation of their foreign rivals.
Even as GM and Ford have accumulated award after award on vehicle quality, you?d almost never know about such quality gains made by American companies - or quality declines of foreign companies - by listening to the media. Did you hear about it when the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration announced that Toyota recalled more vehicles than it sold in the U.S. last year? Probably not. Did you hear about Toyota making an ?elaborate apology? for their ?worrisome series of recalls? that has ?tarnished its reputation for quality?? Probably not. Did you hear about the Toyota senior manager quote that stated ?We used to do quiet recalls called ?service campaigns? to deal with defects but we?re not going to hide anything anymore?? Such a statement suggests Toyota?s past recall numbers were probably much higher than we were led to believe, and they profited handsomely by having a perception of higher quality than they deserved. In Japan, prosecutors are looking into possible negligence on the part of Toyota for shirking recalls for the last eight years. How ironic. You probably didn?t hear about that one either because the American media doesn?t like to bash foreign auto companies ? only American ones.
Then there?s the mythical perception that foreign automakers produce the most fuel efficient cars and that Detroit only makes gas-guzzlers when the truth is that all automakers - including Toyota, Honda and Hyundai-Kia alike ? have allowed fuel economy to slide in the past 20 years since they all now sell bigger trucks and more SUVs. One of Toyota?s senior executives was even quoted in the Wall St. Journal September 28 saying that both the Toyota Sequoia and Tundra ?are big gas-guzzling vehicles? and expressed ?concern about the longer-term prospects.? These longer-term prospects about their admitted gas-guzzlers are questioned because they know that Ford?s F-150 and Chevy?s Silverado have led the pack in sales year after year.
Yes, gasoline has been getting more expensive ? at least until recently ? but the fact that Americans continue to buy it in greater quantities qualifies us as hypocrites for suggesting GM and Ford stop building so many big trucks and SUVs. After all, GM and Ford are only responding to demand as any company would and should if they want to remain profitable in a cut-throat competitive market. According to a Business Week survey, we Americans bought 10% more gasoline in the first six months of 2006 compared to the first six months of 2000 even though gas prices rose 75% in that period. Maybe here I could also mention that the Chevy Tahoe beat the gas-guzzling Toyota Sequoia in quality surveys and gets better gas mileage to boot.
But what has happened since gas prices have been on the decline in recent months? The Wall Street Journal reported a ?slight? increase in truck sales by American companies, as Ford Expedition sales were up 41% and Lincoln Navigator sales were up 44%. The American media even tries to restrain its applause for home-based auto companies by referring to gains of over 40% as ?slight!?
Perhaps the biggest perception problem is that American automobile companies GM and Ford (Chrysler is now German-owned) squander all their money on plants overseas and foreign automakers build their factories in the U.S. Foreign car lovers will surely point to Kia?s plans to build its first-ever U.S. plant in Georgia, but they probably won?t mention that they received $400 million in tax giveaways to do it, which translates into $160,000 per job. Among the many benefits for the foreign-owned company, your tax dollars are going to be used for road improvements surrounding the complex, complete with flower beds and other beautification features. Hey, as long as we?re going to allow states to bid for private jobs with our public tax dollars, we might as well make it look good, right?
And the foreign car lovers will probably also not tell you (or maybe they just don?t know or don?t want you to know) that GM and Ford pour more money into existing American facilities than foreign automakers spend on new plants, usually with little or no tax breaks. GM has already spent over $500 million upgrading two transmission plants this year, and has spent nearly a billion dollars over the last decade, for example, for facility upgrades in Texas. And what do GM and Ford get for making their existing plants more efficient? It isn?t tax breaks. Instead, they get accusations of not being ?competitive? enough! Maybe here I should also mention that the average domestic parts content for Kia is 3%, while the average domestic parts content of Ford and GM is 78% and 74% respectively. This means that buying a U.S.-assembled (or even foreign-assembled, for that matter) GM or Ford supports more American jobs than a U.S.-assembled car or truck with a foreign nameplate.
Fortunately for our benefit, the U.S. remains the overall global leader in research and development, and a big reason for that is that American automakers ? according to the Level Field Institute ? invest $16 billion in R&D (Research & Development) annually, which outpaces any other industry one could name. Admittedly, the Level Field Institute counts German-owned DaimlerChrysler as an American automaker, so Ford and GM?s combined R&D contribution to America is closer to around $12 billion. But who?s counting, right? Certainly not the American auto-bashing media.
Japanese companies do employ 3,600 American workers in R&D, but that still leaves the foreign competition behind in the dust staring at American rear bumpers. 3,600 sounds like a big number until you realize that 65,000 Americans work in R&D facilities in the state of Michigan alone. In fact, two of the top four R&D spending companies in America as reported by the Wall Street Journal are ? you guessed it ? Ford and General Motors. The other two are also American companies: Pfizer and Microsoft.
Ford has recently made headlines as the American automaker with the most challenges to its future, but these challenges certainly are not because they ?aren?t making cars people want to buy.? Toyota did outsell Ford in July, but since then, Ford has reclaimed the No. 2 spot and has held it ever since. GM has the highest market share, increasing over 2 percentage points from a year ago. So apparently they can?t be accused of not making cars people want to buy either. Ford sales are also up in Europe, and Ford doubled their sales in China, where GM has the highest market share of any automaker.
General Motors also reported a 3.9% rise in August vehicle sales despite high gas prices and a supposedly slowing economy. And even though Toyota reported record sales that month, they couldn?t match the non-record setting sales volume of Ford. GM?s sales rose 17% in October from the same month in 2005 and Ford sales rose 8% in the same period. Ford also sits on $23 billion in cash, so they have plenty of money to focus on and fix any problems.
And for all the talk about the lack of fuel efficiency of American automakers, it seems three-fourths of all automakers failed to meet Europe?s improved fuel-efficiency standards intended to cut carbon-dioxide emissions. Japanese and German automakers topped the list of the study?s worst performers, but according to an environmental group?s study, GM?s Opel division and Ford both ?come out well.?
In closing, I?ll leave some encouraging numbers for those of us who actually like to root for and support the home team. The J.D. Power 2006 Vehicle Dependability Survey reports that Mercury, Buick and Cadillac (in that order) grabbed the number 2, 3 and 4 spots to beat Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW and everyone else (except Lexus) in having the least number of problems per 100 vehicles.
Perhaps someday the American media will give GM and Ford the credit they deserve. And once they do, perception among the majority of the American public will rightfully change. GM and Ford aren?t only doing what they should to make gains in the American market to deserve American consumer loyalty; they?re also doing what they should to make gains in the markets of China, Europe and across most of the rest of the globe.
Roger Simmermaker is the author of ?How Americans Can Buy American: The Power of Consumer Patriotism.? He also writes ?Buy American Mention of the Week? articles for his website http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/ and is a member of the Machinists Union and National Writers Union. Roger has been a frequent guest on the Fox News Channel, CNN and MSNBC and has been quoted in the USA Today, Wall Street Journal and US News & World Report among many other publications.
Roger Simmermaker, Author
How Americans Can Buy American
www.howtobuyamerican.com
- Aug 20, 2005
- 2,685
- 11
- 81
OK you got me - you've proven that american cars are the most reliable cars on the planet.
Not that the original intent of the thread was about cars in general or anything....
Edit: good post above. THAT is the kind of stuff i want to see!! Not just "you're wrong"
Not that the original intent of the thread was about cars in general or anything....
Edit: good post above. THAT is the kind of stuff i want to see!! Not just "you're wrong"
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