What's the point of high clutch engagement points

[calvie]

I drove manual car all my life, never own an automatic. But i am very picky, i make sure i like the clutch and shifter before i buy the car. My current Mustang have a pretty low clutch engagement point.

 

[IcePickFreak]

How about VWs? Dunno if they've changed recently, but ~2003 or so and the clutch pedals felt like sticking your foot in mud. That was in Jettas, Passat/VR6's, Beetles - they all had just a dead feel to them IMO.

 

[Zenmervolt]

For reasons I cannot fathom my dad insists on buying cars with manual transmissions. I say this based on my parents' driving style...conservative.

Some people just like the extra control and better engine-braking. Even without getting into spirited driving I can see why some people would prefer making gear selections themselves.

ZV

 

[NutBucket]

My dad's usual excuses are:

1.) Cheaper
2.) Better fuel economy
3.) "more power"
4.) Doesn't want to have different transmissions in each vehicle

Points 1 & 2 are moot in modern cars due to supply/demand and technology. "More power" couldn't possibly make any difference given how slow both he and my mom accelerate. Point 4, well, that would imply he would need to buy two vehicles at the same time to achieve this. I bought my folks a truck in '07. That would have been the perfect time to start the switch to auto given how rarely they replace their truck.

The real issue is, they've had the Sonata over a year and neither my mom or my dad can drive it smoothly. It almost makes me motion sick being in the car with them. I honestly wouldn't care so much if they could drive the car smoothly but they can't. They've never had this issue with previous vehicles.

 

[zCypher]

My dad's usual excuses are:

1.) Cheaper
2.) Better fuel economy
3.) "more power"
4.) Doesn't want to have different transmissions in each vehicle

Points 1 & 2 are moot in modern cars due to supply/demand and technology. "More power" couldn't possibly make any difference given how slow both he and my mom accelerate. Point 4, well, that would imply he would need to buy two vehicles at the same time to achieve this. I bought my folks a truck in '07. That would have been the perfect time to start the switch to auto given how rarely they replace their truck.

The real issue is, they've had the Sonata over a year and neither my mom or my dad can drive it smoothly. It almost makes me motion sick being in the car with them. I honestly wouldn't care so much if they could drive the car smoothly but they can't. They've never had this issue with previous vehicles.

The 'more power' probably has to do with drivetrain loss on automatics. Not sure if that's still a big concern today though, but I can totally agree with always wanting a manual regardless of driving style.

I don't mind the high engagement point as much as the feel, some clutches just feel really meh. The Genesis I tested recently had a sort of weird feel to the clutch, hard to get a feel for.

 

[homercles337]

I test drove a 2011 Sonata and stalled 3 times in the parking lot. I've been driving standard transmission cars all my life, but that Sonata left a sour feeling inside that day.

You may have been driving ONE standard car all your life, but if you had driven more than one you would not have stalled like you did. Those of us that have been driving standard cars for a while know to feather the throttle while easing up on the clutch. You can put me in any car and i will not stall it.

 

[Howard]

You may have been driving ONE standard car all your life, but if you had driven more than one you would not have stalled like you did. Those of us that have been driving standard cars for a while know to feather the throttle while easing up on the clutch. You can put me in any car and i will not stall it.

And if that car happens to be a 3-cyl towing a boat?

 

[homercles337]

And if that car happens to be a 3-cyl towing a boat?

A boat? Like this?

Piece of cake...

 

[Pens1566]

My dad's usual excuses are:

1.) Cheaper
2.) Better fuel economy
3.) "more power"
4.) Doesn't want to have different transmissions in each vehicle

Points 1 & 2 are moot in modern cars due to supply/demand and technology. "More power" couldn't possibly make any difference given how slow both he and my mom accelerate. Point 4, well, that would imply he would need to buy two vehicles at the same time to achieve this. I bought my folks a truck in '07. That would have been the perfect time to start the switch to auto given how rarely they replace their truck.

The real issue is, they've had the Sonata over a year and neither my mom or my dad can drive it smoothly. It almost makes me motion sick being in the car with them. I honestly wouldn't care so much if they could drive the car smoothly but they can't. They've never had this issue with previous vehicles.

#1 is completely valid as some manufacturers put a $1500 premium on automatic models.

 

[ballmode]

Honda S2000 = best ever

 

[NutBucket]

#1 is completely valid as some manufacturers put a $1500 premium on automatic models.

Try to find a loss-leader ad for an Accord/Camry/Sonata that has a manual transmission. It just doesn't happen. Even when my dad was shopping around, he was flat out told he would get a better price on the automatic.

I admit that I derailed the thread a bit so I'll shut up about it. Its his car and his choice...I just don't think its the best choice given he isn't getting any younger and has more important things to pay attention to than shifting gears.

 

[darom]

You may have been driving ONE standard car all your life, but if you had driven more than one you would not have stalled like you did. Those of us that have been driving standard cars for a while know to feather the throttle while easing up on the clutch. You can put me in any car and i will not stall it.

One? Wrong. These are the cars I own now:
1994 Dodge Cummins diesel - 5 speed, long clutch engagement, easy to drive, the 1st gear almost needs no clutch
1976 Datsun 280z 5 speed (originally 4 speed) - same feel as the truck above , no surprises here
2004 Honda Accord 4cyl, 5 speed - the surprise was while in reverse, I have to give more clutch than normal, did manage to stall a few times.

In the past I drove 1988 RX7 TII, 5 speed, heck even the Russian made 'Moskvich' and 'Niva'.

Hyundai clutch was a total different feel than any of these vehicles.

Anyway, homercles337, thanks for lecturing and happy motoring!

 

[SparkyJJO]

It doesn't explain why there is so much dead travel in the pedal after the clutch has fully disengaged. What's the point of the last 10-20 degrees pivot in the pedal in most cars?

So they can annoy you by having a very high engagement point on a little 4 banger so it is easy to stall, then force you to shove the pedal to the floor to start it again.

 

[homercles337]

One? Wrong. These are the cars I own now:
1994 Dodge Cummins diesel - 5 speed, long clutch engagement, easy to drive, the 1st gear almost needs no clutch
1976 Datsun 280z 5 speed (originally 4 speed) - same feel as the truck above , no surprises here
2004 Honda Accord 4cyl, 5 speed - the surprise was while in reverse, I have to give more clutch than normal, did manage to stall a few times.

In the past I drove 1988 RX7 TII, 5 speed, heck even the Russian made 'Moskvich' and 'Niva'.

Hyundai clutch was a total different feel than any of these vehicles.

Anyway, homercles337, thanks for lecturing and happy motoring!

Well, hell, back the eff up, we got a badass here. Have you really driven 3 different cars with manual transmissions and never learned (or figured out) how to feather the throttle? Thats just sad. Here is Senna in an NSX for examples of feathering, heel-toe, rev matching, and even double clutching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2AEsGAhU&feature=player_embedded

This pissing match ends NOW. There will not be any other warnings.

Zenmervolt - AnandTech Moderator

 

[nicolaskl]

Try to find a loss-leader ad for an Accord/Camry/Sonata that has a manual transmission. It just doesn't happen. Even when my dad was shopping around, he was flat out told he would get a better price on the automatic.

This isn't true. You may not be able to find a loss leader ad on one due to so few people wanting manuals on those types of cars (I still bet I could find one though), but that doesn't change the FACT that the auto is a cost option, which drives up both invoice and MSRP. Just because a salesperson (who probably didn't have a manual on the lot at the time) told your dad something, doesn't mean it's true.

 

[Zenmervolt]

This isn't true. You may not be able to find a loss leader ad on one due to so few people wanting manuals on those types of cars (I still bet I could find one though), but that doesn't change the FACT that the auto is a cost option, which drives up both invoice and MSRP. Just because a salesperson (who probably didn't have a manual on the lot at the time) told your dad something, doesn't mean it's true.

MSRP is not the price that people pay.

Dealers are very often much more motivated to make deals on cars that are already on the lot. If they have to special order the car, they have the buyer over a barrel because they know the buyer is so tied to certain features that he (or she) is willing to go through the inconvenience of waiting a few weeks rather than buying something that they can drive home that night.

Also, because the cars on a dealer's lot have inventory costs associated with them, the dealer benefits more from getting rid of a car they already have than they do from special ordering a car. Again, this increases the likelihood that a dealer will offer better pricing on a car that they already have on the lot even if the special order car technically has a lower invoice price.

Just because the automatic is a cost option on certain trims (it's not available at all on EX model Civics, for example) doesn't mean that dealers are as motivated to make deals on those cars. Someone special ordering a manual version is going to end up paying the dealer for the hassle of the special order and isn't going to be able to take advantage of the fact that the dealer wants to get rid of existing inventory. It makes perfect sense that a dealer wouldn't move as much on the price of a special-order manual car as they would for one of the dozen or so automatic versions they have on their lot already.

ZV

 

[NutBucket]

Thanks ZV, saved me the trouble of typing a reply

 

[calvie]

One? Wrong. These are the cars I own now:
1994 Dodge Cummins diesel - 5 speed, long clutch engagement, easy to drive, the 1st gear almost needs no clutch
1976 Datsun 280z 5 speed (originally 4 speed) - same feel as the truck above , no surprises here
2004 Honda Accord 4cyl, 5 speed - the surprise was while in reverse, I have to give more clutch than normal, did manage to stall a few times.

In the past I drove 1988 RX7 TII, 5 speed, heck even the Russian made 'Moskvich' and 'Niva'.

Hyundai clutch was a total different feel than any of these vehicles.

Anyway, homercles337, thanks for lecturing and happy motoring!

I don't understand how you can stall the car 3 times on a test drive when you drove so many manual cars. I too drive manual all my life and there's no way to stall a car if you hold the rpm at 1k or so before you let go of the clutch slowly. As long as you are feathering the gas, there's NO WAY the car can stall. I have never stall a car during a test drive for a new car or test driving a friends car.

P.s you stalled the car because you didn't give it enough gas while releasing the clutch. High or low engagement point makes no difference.

When I said, "there will not be any other warnings," that applied to everyone. This one's an infraction.

Zenmervolt - AnandTech Moderator

 

[amdhunter]

Ah I see. Well was just curious as to why some cars have it higher than others. Particularly the ones where the engagement point is almost at the top of the pedal travel.

You just described my old Jetta. I didn't realize how high it was in the beginning until I started to drive other manual cars.

 

[calvie]

I don't understand how you can stall the car 3 times on a test drive when you drove so many manual cars. I too drive manual all my life and there's no way to stall a car if you hold the rpm at 1k or so before you let go of the clutch slowly. As long as you are feathering the gas, there's NO WAY the car can stall. I have never stall a car during a test drive for a new car or test driving a friends car.

P.s you stalled the car because you didn't give it enough gas while releasing the clutch. High or low engagement point makes no difference.

When I said, "there will not be any other warnings," that applied to everyone. This one's an infraction.

Zenmervolt - AnandTech Moderator

Stop acting like a little girl. All i did was show him why he is stalling the car. Ban me please. This forum is full of pussy mods having pms.

You posted almost verbatim what another member had already been warned about. I don't see how anyone with room-temperature intelligence could have expected a different result.

The Garage has tighter restrictions in order to prevent threads from descending into a couple of users bickering with each other over stupid things like which of them is better at driving a standard. The exchange between homercles337 and darom was cut off because this is a technical thread about why a clutch would intentionally be designed with a high engagement point, not an off-topic pissing match about whether user A knows how to drive with a manual transmission better than user B.

In any case, request granted.

Zenmervolt - AnandTech Moderator

 

[Ronstang]

Why wouldn't I want the engagement point high? That way I don't have to push the clutch pedal in so far for quick shits. On my custom cars I make my own clutch pedal setups and modify the whole setup to be adjustable so I can pick not only the engagement point but exactly where I want the pedal at rest.

 

[Howard]

Why wouldn't I want the engagement point high? That way I don't have to push the clutch pedal in so far for quick shits. On my custom cars I make my own clutch pedal setups and modify the whole setup to be adjustable so I can pick not only the engagement point but exactly where I want the pedal at rest.

A high engagement point is fine. It's the rest of the travel that's useless and detracting from the whole action.

Nice typo, btw.

 

[Pens1566]

MSRP is not the price that people pay.

Dealers are very often much more motivated to make deals on cars that are already on the lot. If they have to special order the car, they have the buyer over a barrel because they know the buyer is so tied to certain features that he (or she) is willing to go through the inconvenience of waiting a few weeks rather than buying something that they can drive home that night.

Also, because the cars on a dealer's lot have inventory costs associated with them, the dealer benefits more from getting rid of a car they already have than they do from special ordering a car. Again, this increases the likelihood that a dealer will offer better pricing on a car that they already have on the lot even if the special order car technically has a lower invoice price.

Just because the automatic is a cost option on certain trims (it's not available at all on EX model Civics, for example) doesn't mean that dealers are as motivated to make deals on those cars. Someone special ordering a manual version is going to end up paying the dealer for the hassle of the special order and isn't going to be able to take advantage of the fact that the dealer wants to get rid of existing inventory. It makes perfect sense that a dealer wouldn't move as much on the price of a special-order manual car as they would for one of the dozen or so automatic versions they have on their lot already.

ZV

2 cars on a lot (or on order, makes no difference) that are identical except for the transmission. One an auto the other manual. The auto will be priced higher both invoice and MSRP.

And automatic is available in a Civic EX. Not an Si though. I think that's what you're referring to.

<-- Honda guy

 

[exdeath]

I'm one to solve problems myself rather than complaining about what the factory does.

For my car, I have:

-adjustable clutch cable: dial in ball park length/tension
-firewall adjuster: fine tune click adjust length/tension
-pedal height adjustment bracket: put the pedal as low as I want
-adjustable quadrant: make it as long/easy or short/hard as I want
-slack "spring" to preload fork/cable: This one is tricky.

With a cable system, if you try to take out all the slack and dead space at the top of the pedal, the cable will be too tight and be pulling on the clutch fork even with the pedal fully up. This can cause premature failure of the throwout bearing by keeping it engaged 24/7 (no bearing lasts long in the abusive environment of an abrasive clutch dust filled bell housing). I have a stiff spring between the bell housing and clutch fork at the point where the cable connects. This resists the action of the cable in tugging on the fork. With that preloaded tension in the fork keeping the cable tight, I can click my firewall adjuster while the car is on a lift and I peer into the bell housing, watching the fork move and compress the spring mm by mm and stop within 1 click of bearing engagement.

This is all AFTER I put the pedal stops where I want them, then it's a matter of having a quadrant with a ramp profile that can take up the required length of cable to fully engage or disengage the clutch with the allowed pedal travel window (allotted degrees of rotation of the quadrant from pedal up to pedal down).

No dead or useless space. With this setup I can set my clutch pedal to be even height with the brake pedal and get instant engagement the moment my toe touches the pedal.

Drawback is when it's that close I have to adjust it frequently. As the clutch wears, the pressure plate springs push back slightly and I have to back off a click on the firewall adjuster to keep it from dragging the bearing when not in use.

One advantage of a cable system is adjustments; the pedal/fork throw ratios are controlled by the arc length of the quadrant. Longer arc = more fork movement for given foot movement at the trade off of more force required.

Not sure how you could change pedal throw to fork throw ratio on a hydraulic system without having an adjustable angled linkage from pedal to clutch master or ability to change piston diameters? You'd need a method to change the lever fulcrum distance at either the pedal or fork from the respective cylinders. Should be able to move the linkage up and down the pedal further or closer to the pivot point of the pedal. Moving it away from the pivot (down the pedal) would operate the clutch much faster with less pedal travel, but decrease your lever advantage and make the pedal harder.

 

[Zenmervolt]

2 cars on a lot (or on order, makes no difference) that are identical except for the transmission. One an auto the other manual. The auto will be priced higher both invoice and MSRP.

And automatic is available in a Civic EX. Not an Si though. I think that's what you're referring to.

<-- Honda guy

Yes, if they're both on the lot. You'll note that nothing in my post contradicts this.

The Honda US website doesn't show a manual option for the Civic EX Sedan for the 2012 models. At least, when I tried to spec one out on their build page it didn't. http://automobiles.honda.com/tools/...ModelID=&ModelName=Civic Sedan&ModelYear=2012

It appears that the EX Coupe does have that option though.

ZV